Private arms being used against democracy and freedom?

[Phillip Hone]

In most gun control debates I've seen, people often cite the American revolution as proof that wide spread private gun ownership is important in protecting the people from tyrannical governments. How ever, aren't there also cases of the exact opposite happening? I.E, relatively free and fair governments being overthrown by militias that seek to establish something more oligarchical and oppressive? I might not be understanding these two situations correctly, but it seems to me that Mussolini's black shirts would be a good example, as would the Iraqi insurgency. Would this be a valid counter argument?

[Stuart Mackey]

In most gun control debates I've seen, people often cite the American revolution as proof that wide spread private gun ownership is important in protecting the people from tyrannical governments. How ever, aren't there also cases of the exact opposite happening? I.E, relatively free and fair governments being overthrown by militias that seek to establish something more oligarchical and oppressive? I might not be understanding these two situations correctly, but it seems to me that Mussolini's black shirts would be a good example, as would the Iraqi insurgency. Would this be a valid counter argument?

Gun control? Hah! poppycock! its not the guns, its who controls the supply of guns and why.

[Darth Wong]

Isn't Africa full of countries where armed militia revolutionaries turned a previously stable country, however corrupt, into a hellish warzone full of death and misery?

[Sarevok]

Isn't Africa full of countries where armed militia revolutionaries turned a previously stable country, however corrupt, into a hellish warzone full of death and misery?

You may also consider Pakistan. It is close to a second world country so is more relevant than African anarchi-stans.. Yet the increasing amounts of guns available has allowed serious destablization. It is easy to get an Ak-47 in Pakistan, But would that make you safe if you were living there ? Against roving bands of thugs, terrorist, criminals I think not.

[Darth Wong]

Mind you, even the original American Revolutionary story is mythologized to a heavy degree. We're often told about how the brave American militias rose up to defeat the occupying British army. You don't hear quite as often about how militias took food at gunpoint from the very settlers they were supposedly liberating, because the nascent half-assed US government could not afford to pay or feed them, and its mismanagement of the economy caused hyper-inflation.

There's a reason why people say that the British Empire simply gave up on America because it wasn't worth it, not because the Americans were actually doing really well.

[irishmick79]

Isn't Africa full of countries where armed militia revolutionaries turned a previously stable country, however corrupt, into a hellish warzone full of death and misery?

Absolutely. Thanks to the proxy warfare of the Cold War, a lot of insurgencies and rebellions found it much cheaper to fight a war than to forge a peace once the US or the USSR decided to give them vast quantities of advanced light weaponry of all kinds.

Although most of the worst victims were never really stable to begin with - a lot of the places like Angola and Zaire and Indonesia were just getting independence when the cold war powers started dumping weapons into their situations.

[K. A. Pital]

It is close to a second world country

Pakistan? No way in hell. That place is a shithole and has a HDI of 0.551.

Hell, Tajikistan (which I remarked upon earlier - a country that had a 7 year civil war after the USSR fell, was the least advanced of Soviet republics with a ~0.700 HDI, and now suffers a food and energy crisis, as well as a great collapse of education system) - that nation has still a HDI of 0,670.

Pakistan... let's just say it's fucked up:

It's right down there with Lesotho.

Pakistan does not really "reach" the Second World in any meaningful sense, allright;

[Zixinus]

What is a HDI?

[PeZook]

What is a HDI?

Human Development Index. It's an economic indicator taking into account literacy rates, educational level, gdp per capita, standard of living and life expectancy, against maximum values achievable today.

So a country with an HDI of 1 has the best score in all those categories in the world. A country with an HDI of 0 is full of dead people

[Darth Yoshi]

So sub-Saharan Africa had a higher score than Pakistan for a while? Damn.

[K. A. Pital]

So sub-Saharan Africa had a higher score than Pakistan for a while? Damn.

That's just shows Pakistan is a shithole. Was a shithole. And remains one, really.

Considering the sway Islam has there, unsurprising. Heavily Islamic nations do not have good HDI scores, even those with oil wealth abundant like Iran.

Note how close really the First and Second World are HDI wise. Look at the heavily religious societies however, like the Third World nations in Latin America, Africa and Asia. They're abysmal.

Pakistan is even more deplorable considering it's whackaloon security agents propping up radical Islam here and there, worsening the already bad situation in Central Asia.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Mind you, even the original American Revolutionary story is mythologized to a heavy degree. We're often told about how the brave American militias rose up to defeat the occupying British army. You don't hear quite as often about how militias took food at gunpoint from the very settlers they were supposedly liberating, because the nascent half-assed US government could not afford to pay or feed them, and its mismanagement of the economy caused hyper-inflation.

There's a reason why people say that the British Empire simply gave up on America because it wasn't worth it, not because the Americans were actually doing really well.

No one really talks about how hard it was on some Americans, who were killed, expropriated, driven off their land, or simply ruined. No one talks about the Tories (who went to help found your country in large part and contribute to Canadian mistrust of America). No one talks about how close it came to turning the U.S. into a total economic basketcase.

[Drooling Iguana]

There's also the fact that lack of gun control tends to lead to higher murder rates, and higher murder rates lead to people being more willing to turn away their freedoms and give more power to law enforcement agencies that promise to keep them safe.

These are more difficult to measure, though.

[Sea Skimmer]

Isn't Africa full of countries where armed militia revolutionaries turned a previously stable country, however corrupt, into a hellish warzone full of death and misery?

Yeah, but if you took away the guns they’d just do the same thing with machetes, in fact even the better armed African shitholes like Sierra Leone tend to have more militia running around with edged weapons then guns. Guns after all need ammo which costs more money and corrodes in the jungle, with a machete you can just keep killing and killing. Look no further then the Rwandan Genocide for how well this works, something like 90% of those killed were killed with blades, not bullets. Plus, think about it, would you think it remotely sane to not allow individuals to own firearms in one of the countries? It’s not like the police are going to come 75 miles past the end of the only paved road in the country to help you.

Anyway, simply saying those states are corrupt is a gross understatement of how fucked up African can get. Need I mention Emperor Bokassa I of the Central African Empire, who imprisoned and then ate school children after they protested the cost of new uniforms? Heck one of the former presidents for life and beyond (no joke some African rulers have taken that title) of IIRC Equatorial Guinea once fed human flesh to the French Ambassador.

[Lusankya]

There's also the fact that lack of gun control tends to lead to higher murder rates, and higher murder rates lead to people being more willing to turn away their freedoms and give more power to law enforcement agencies that promise to keep them safe.

These are more difficult to measure, though.

I've got this theory that the murder rate in America has less to do with the lack of gun control, and more to do with the fact that Americans are, in general, piss-scared about everything.

Think about it: how many times have you heard Americans say that they need a gun to protect themselves from other people? And how many times have you heard the non-American gun lovers say they need it to protect themselves from other people?

[Jadeite]

I've got this theory that the murder rate in America has less to do with the lack of gun control, and more to do with the fact that Americans are, in general, piss-scared about everything.

Or because inner cities are hell holes. If America's black population were to disappear, the murder rate would be cut by half. The War on Drugs is a greater cause of violence than any amount of weapons.

Think about it: how many times have you heard Americans say that they need a gun to protect themselves from other people?

In-person? None.

[Mr Bean]

I've got this theory that the murder rate in America has less to do with the lack of gun control, and more to do with the fact that Americans are, in general, piss-scared about everything.

Or because inner cities are hell holes. If America's black population were to disappear, the murder rate would be cut by half. The War on Drugs is a greater cause of violence than any amount of weapons.

Jadeite, I want you to sit down and carefully consider what you just implied about black people by the first part of your statement.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I've got this theory that the murder rate in America has less to do with the lack of gun control, and more to do with the fact that Americans are, in general, piss-scared about everything.

Or because inner cities are hell holes. If America's black population were to disappear, the murder rate would be cut by half. The War on Drugs is a greater cause of violence than any amount of weapons.

Jadeite, I want you to sit down and carefully consider what you just implied about black people by the first part of your statement.

Seconded. I feel the better solution is to either stop giving white criminals a slap on the wrist for the same drug offenses that earn a black or Latino hard time, or simply redefine criminality to exclude drug use and consensual sex acts.

If you keep repeatedly oppressing a segment of a population with stupid laws specifically designed to be racist or simply a convenient pretext for arrest and imprisonment, especially if it's forced labor for profit of private corporate-owned prison industry, you shouldn't be surprised that areas with a high concentration of the oppressed people go to shit. People lose respect for the law, especially if the people responsible for the law go to great lengths to deny economic opportunity on top of it. Even worse is when crypto-racist assholes like most of the Republican Party rip out every last social safety net that gets in the way of funneling poor people into prisons.

Don't blame black people for the anger and anti-white hate, blame the white business establishment for reinventing Slavery as the Prison Industry and the Drug War. Blame them for dumbing us all down enough to vote the bastards all the power they ever wanted. Blame ourselves for being taken into their venomous racist hype disguised as 'tough on crime RAR!' legislation. Let the black man come to terms with his own resultant racism, like Obama, for example, want us all to do.

[SirNitram]

Blame the damn lobbyists.

Something like half the illegally obtained guns/guns used in crimes are sold from 10% or so of the vendors. So, not too many years ago, a mayor has the brilliant plan of using sting ops to identify the ten percent and put them out of business until they comply.

The gun lobby immediately ran crying to the legislature, demanding this vile behavior be made illegal, and there be no penalties for violately the laws about selling guns.

No regulation, no enforcement, and attempts to do either have the lobbyists trying to axe your knees off. That's the gun problem. Macho stupidity does contribute, of course.

[Darth Wong]

I've got this theory that the murder rate in America has less to do with the lack of gun control, and more to do with the fact that Americans are, in general, piss-scared about everything.

Or because inner cities are hell holes. If America's black population were to disappear, the murder rate would be cut by half. The War on Drugs is a greater cause of violence than any amount of weapons.

Think about it: how many times have you heard Americans say that they need a gun to protect themselves from other people?

In-person? None.

You're just a walking, talking stereotype of the dumbshit American conservative, aren't you?

[AdmiralKanos]

If America's black population were to disappear, the murder rate would be cut by half.

I'm tempted to make you disappear from this forum, but I think I'll just give you an appropriate title instead. If you think this is unjust, feel free to complain to a Senator, if you can find one who thinks you have a case.

[Rye]

I wonder how much the murder rate would be cut by if you removed the heterosexual male population? Probably a great deal more than just picking on the blacks.

[K. A. Pital]

Something like half the illegally obtained guns/guns used in crimes are sold from 10% or so of the vendors.

Ah, exactly the thing I was wondering about -how US criminals get an easy grip on stealing arms: being in cahoots with certain arms dealers expains a lot. After all, I guess they don't just randomly steal guns - they have informants as to which guns to steal and where. Brilliant scheme. And as always, the government can't do shit.

[Jadeite]

Jadeite, I want you to sit down and carefully consider what you just implied about black people by the first part of your statement.

Homicide rates by race

56.4% of homicides by firearm, 52.2% of total homicides, and only 12.4% of the population. Most of this is intraracial violence. The War on Drugs has effectively destroyed an entire segment of America's citizens by trapping them into poverty-laden cycles of violence.

You're just a walking, talking stereotype of the dumbshit American conservative, aren't you?

Except for that I've supported Obama ever since Richardson dropped out of the presidential nomination campaign, support gay marriage, support the decriminalization of marijuana, lowering penalties for simple possession of other illegal drugs (among other nonviolent crimes), and ending the militarization of police departments.

I wonder how much the murder rate would be cut by if you removed the heterosexual male population? Probably a great deal more than just picking on the blacks.

By approximately 45.8%.

[Glocksman]

Blame the damn lobbyists.

Something like half the illegally obtained guns/guns used in crimes are sold from 10% or so of the vendors. So, not too many years ago, a mayor has the brilliant plan of using sting ops to identify the ten percent and put them out of business until they comply.

The gun lobby immediately ran crying to the legislature, demanding this vile behavior be made illegal, and there be no penalties for violately the laws about selling guns.

No regulation, no enforcement, and attempts to do either have the lobbyists trying to axe your knees off. That's the gun problem. Macho stupidity does contribute, of course.

Are you talking about
Bloomberg's stings?

MAYOR BLOOMBERG'S decision to hire private investigators to conduct undercover stings at Southern gun shops has potentially jeopardized several criminal cases, law enforcement sources charged.

Four cases were compromised and an additional 14 were put at risk by the six-week sting aimed at gun stores in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia, the sources said.

The sources argued that several suspects being watched by authorities had frequented some of the 15 gun shops - but are now cleaning up their acts or lying low because of the publicity. None of the ongoing cases was linked to New York, the sources said.

"A bunch of private eyes straight out of 'Barnaby Jones' run their own sting operation and all the real enforcement agencies find out about it on the day they are having a press conference? Not good," said a law enforcement source in Washington.

The Justice Department held a meeting last week to review potential problems, another source said.

"The goal is to lock up gun criminals, not file civil lawsuits with publicity stunts," the source said.

But the city's criminal justice czar dismissed the complaints.

"What we did can only complement any ongoing investigation," said Criminal Justice Coordinator John Feinblatt, adding his office had received only positive feedback, as well as requests to share the evidence gathered. The NYPD was not involved in the sting.

"Agencies will marry the video evidence we gathered with other evidence to make a far richer, far stronger and far more airtight case," Feinblatt said.

City officials said the sting was not a stunt - but a necessary campaign given how few gun shops are investigated and shuttered for flouting laws governing firearm sales.

Also, the DOJ concluded that Bloomberg's gumshoes didn't gather enough evidence to warrant criminal prosecution.

DOJ letter to city

Here's an exerpt:

As I communicated to you in May of2006, the evaluation and investigation of this matter is within the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). Accordingly, the materials your office provided to ATF's New York Field Division were referred to the appropriate ATF field offices for evaluation. Recently, the ATF field offices concluded their evaluation and investigation, and consulted with their respective United States Attorney's Office. The United States Attorneys' Offices in each district wherein the City of New York conducted activities have carefully reviewed the matters and considered all of the materials. Each United States Attorney's Office has concluded that the circumstances surrounding the purchases do not rise to a level that would support a criminal prosecution.

Although a decision has been made not to move forward with case filings in these matters, you should be aware that there are potential legal liabilities that may attach when persons outside of law enforcement undertake actions typically reserved for law enforcement agents. This risk is particularly acute when such persons, however well-intentioned, but without proper law enforcement authority, misrepresent that they are the actual purchasers of the firearms when, in fact, the purchases are being
made on behalf of another person or entity (for instance, on behalf of the City). In addition, civilian efforts can unintentionally interrupt or jeopardize ongoing criminal investigations.

The solution to this kind of gun trafficking isn't the Mayor of NYC conducting his own vigilante 'sting', nor is it adding any more laws, as it's already illegal to sell guns to 'straw purchasers', to sell multiple handguns to the same person without notifying the ATF, and skip NICS checks.

The solution is to both professionalize and increase funding for the ATF's Enforcement Division.
Professionalization is needed because of the ATF's long and notorious history of 'Keystone Kops' law enforcement and funding is needed to increase the number of compliance inspections on suspect dealers.