Stargate (movie) Force Sub

[Balrog]

By act of ROB the original team sent through the Stargate is replaced by one of the following. They arrive in a similar situation as in the movie, with the goal of exploring and reactivating the gate so they can return home before Ra kills them or they simply die of old age. Each team is equipped with their typical gear plus additional supplies to survive for an extended stay. They are joined by an appropriately nerdy scientist to replace the role of Daniel Jackson and an appropriate officer to replace Col. O'Neil.

• Star Wars: Six Stormtroopers
• Star Trek: Six Starfleet Security personnel (Dom. War era)
• Babylon 5: Six EarthForce GROPOS
• Halo: Four Grunts and two shield Jackels (Elite minor leader)
• WH40K: Six Cadian Shock Troops

[Darth Ruinus]

Im pretty sure the Halo team fares pretty badly. The Grunts and Jackals didnt seem like disciplined soldiers.

[Peptuck]

The Halo force at the very least is going to get obliterated through sheer stupidty. Jackals are disciplined troops, relatively speaking, as they're pretty much all mercenaries working for the Covenant, but the Grunts are poorly trained and prone to breaking, and the Elite Minors are the young, brash, hot-headed novices. They're going to get smashed.

Cadian Shock troops are probably going to fare the sam as or better than the troops from the movie, considering the superiority of lasguns when compared with modern weapons, and the generally superior firepower of all 40k weaponry.

Assuming they're being sent in as an explorer team with full awareness that they may be facing all manner of whatever the hell, I'd assume the Cadians would bring along at least a few heavier weapons too, possibly hellguns or autocannons.

[Shannon]

I can't speak for Halo or WH40K as I have little to no knowledge of either.

Assuming that the Stormtrooper team's nerdy scientist can actually translate the dialect used by the Abydosians, they should do well against Ra's soldiers. Stormtrooper armour provides an advantage at night and in sandy conditions, even more so if they're sandtroopers. Their weapons have a longer effective range and can possibly deliver just as much damage (I'm not sure about this, I don't know what the accepted numbers are and staff weapons seem to vary considerably in their yield at times) as a staff weapon and definitely do it more accurately. They could certainly bring down a Death Glider or two.

The Starfleet team will do OK thanks to its Universal Translators but they will be outside their comfort zone without a starship to call upon for backup. I can't see them doing any better than regular Earth Army personnel; they may even do worse. Not sure how pulse phaser rifles will do against Death Gliders, and unless they have those shoulder-fired grenade launcher things from 'Insurrection', those are probably the heaviest weapons they have.

The B5 GROPOS will probably do as well as the regular Army guys did. We haven't seen what manner of heavier weaponry or special environmental equipment they have, but we have seen them operate in a combined arms environment ('GROPOS') as a conventional army would, so it may be reasonable to assume that they would be prepared along the same lines. Their body armour doesn't seem able to stop a point-blank PPG blast, so it probably can't stop a staff blast.

[Shannon]

Edit: Not sure what the range is for PPGs used by the GROPOS. This could be a factor.

[Batman]

Both hand phaser and PPG fights tend to happen at pretty low ranges so that might be a problem with hitting Death Gliders but for the ground bound part of the battles either party should be cool where range is concerned.

[Darth Smiley]

I'd guess the Starfleet team does the best, as they have universal translators and experience making contact with new cultures. The only real downside for Starfleet is that they occasional take large doses of stupid pills, so might do something really dumb in the name of the Prime Directive.

[Batman]

One question is, can phasers defeat that abysmally stupid Jaffa body armour?

And offhand I'd say ALL of the replacements would be hard-pressed to do much better than the original team. THE SG primary problem wasn't that they were out-teched (which they weren't by all that large a margin, really, on the indiviudal level), they were out-numbered, and ambushed.
The stormies have a good chance of repelling the initial infantry attack coming through the gate (assuming their armor can withstand staff weapons-have those ever been consistently quantified?) but I don't see what half a dozen of them can do about the arrival of Ra's mother ship and the subsequent influx of troops and air force.

[Darth Wong]

SW: if the desert stormtrooper squad looks like one of the Tatooine squads from ANH, then at least one of them will have one of the big repeater guns. That big gun alone will be a huge improvement; the original team in the movie was carrying nothing but SMGs. It's also their best chance for taking down the aircraft, which are (luckily) fairly slow.

ST: a typical ST squad doesn't seem to have any variation in weapons; they will all carry the same phaser rifle. I think that as a weapon, it probably compares pretty well to those staffs in the movie, but I don't know if it's going to do anything to the aircraft at all, even if they score hits.

B5: do we ever see those guys fight on the ground in enough detail to know how they fight or even how they're typically equipped for a mission?

Halo: Jackals have a pretty significant advantage with their shields, and Elites have a built-in shield as well, combined with superhuman strength. The grunts are useless, but the jackals and Elite should be able to kick the shit out of the enemy on the ground. The aircraft are a different story, but if they can get into the pyramid then they don't have to worry about them, and their shields might give them the survivability they need to simply dash into the pyramid.

[NecronLord]

One question is, can phasers defeat that abysmally stupid Jaffa body armour?

This is the movie. They're not wearing anything but the helmets and a tiny chest plate. It is after all, hot on that desert planet.

(assuming their armor can withstand staff weapons-have those ever been consistently quantified?)

In SG1: A couple of megajoules tops. However, the movie staff weapons consistantly send their targets flying backwards; chances are it'll knock them over but not kill them. The impact might kill some of them, if it hit them in the head I suppose...

but I don't see what half a dozen of them can do about the arrival of Ra's mother ship and the subsequent influx of troops and air force.

They could get on board fairly easily, all they need to do is work out what the rings are for, kill 'Anubis' and then use them to get up to the ship; they can then handily shoot most of the crew; it's a glorified pleasure yacht, it has Ra himself, a few dozen guards, two death gliders, and a whole bunch of children on board.

[Darth Smiley]

The only thing that stops O'Neil from taking out RA is that he used children as human shields. Somehow I don't think that would help against stormtroopers.

[Balrog]

B5: do we ever see those guys fight on the ground in enough detail to know how they fight or even how they're typically equipped for a mission?

IIRC it's much as we see during the TV series: body armor, PPG rifles, and I believe a heavy support version of a PPG.

[Batman]

One question is, can phasers defeat that abysmally stupid Jaffa body armour?

This is the movie. They're not wearing anything but the helmets and a tiny chest plate. It is after all, hot on that desert planet.

Oops. Thank you. I guess by now I'm just too to used the SG-1 Jaffa armour.
Which eases, but by no means eliminates the problems for the redshirts-all the TNG phaser killshots I recall were torso hits, where the chestplate would be in the way, and given intentional limb hits are tricky with modern actually aimable weapons...

but I don't see what half a dozen of them can do about the arrival of Ra's mother ship and the subsequent influx of troops and air force.

They could get on board fairly easily, all they need to do is work out what the rings are for, kill 'Anubis' and then use them to get up to the ship; they can then handily shoot most of the crew; it's a glorified pleasure yacht, it has Ra himself, a few dozen guards, two death gliders, and a whole bunch of children on board.

I'm marginally certain that we saw more than 2 Death Gliders but generally conceeded. I guess I assumed Ra's ship would be the equivalent of a Ha'tak when indeed it was nothing of that kind.

[Batman]

B5: do we ever see those guys fight on the ground in enough detail to know how they fight or even how they're typically equipped for a mission?

IIRC it's much as we see during the TV series: body armor, PPG rifles, and I believe a heavy support version of a PPG.

Um-B5 WAS the TV series and I can't recall ever seeing a HMG PPG.

[Balrog]

B5: do we ever see those guys fight on the ground in enough detail to know how they fight or even how they're typically equipped for a mission?

IIRC it's much as we see during the TV series: body armor, PPG rifles, and I believe a heavy support version of a PPG.

Um-B5 WAS the TV series and I can't recall ever seeing a HMG PPG.

Bah, you're right, I was thinking of something else, but they do have crew served weapons according to some AoG gaming material. Unfortunately I don't have any of it on hand.

[Shannon]

I recall seeing larger PPG weapons on at least two occasions:
1. 'The Gathering' when Sinclair and Garibaldi go after the assassin who has been using the camouflage web;
2. In one of the episodes showing the possible destruction of B5 during a battle, Garibaldi uses a LMG sized PPG.

Other than that, 'GROPOS' shows typical EF groundpounder equipment. The combined arms I referred to earlier was the aerial close support vehicle that looked kind of like an Mi-24 Hind. I haven't seen the ep in a while but I don't recall much else being shown. It may be worth reviewing the small amount of footage near the end of the ep which shows the ground battle.

A later episode, s.4's 'No Surrender, No Retreat', makes mention of (implied) ground based (stated) laser cannons used for bombarding the Proxima 3 resistance. Marcus is in hyperspace talking to the resistance on the planet when there is an explosion in the background. When he asks what's happening, the resistance guy says that Clark's forces have brought up laser cannons and they're going to have to fall back.

[Shannon]

Re. the stormtroopers: Doesn't the Imperial Sourcebook make a mention of an attempt by the Imperial Army to equip all squads with a light repeating blaster? (checks) Yes, it does. pp. 82-83.
Of course, we're talking about stormtroopers, not normal regular army, but that could be even worse (or better). The sandtrooper on p.38 is said to be equipped with a concussion grenade launcher.

[Batman]

I recall seeing larger PPG weapons on at least two occasions:
1. 'The Gathering' when Sinclair and Garibaldi go after the assassin who has been using the camouflage web

The one and only PPG to ever supposedly have a stun setting, yes. It ALSO completely fails to exhibit firepower or refire rate in excess of standard rifle PPGs later in the series.

2. In one of the episodes showing the possible destruction of B5 during a battle, Garibaldi uses a LMG sized PPG.

Which ALSO has completely undetermined capabilities.

[Jaevric]

Cadian Shock troops are probably going to fare the sam as or better than the troops from the movie, considering the superiority of lasguns when compared with modern weapons, and the generally superior firepower of all 40k weaponry.

Assuming they're being sent in as an explorer team with full awareness that they may be facing all manner of whatever the hell, I'd assume the Cadians would bring along at least a few heavier weapons too, possibly hellguns or autocannons.

Hellguns are standard issue for Cadian shock troopers. What's going to be ugly is when you factor in possibilities like plasma guns, flamers, or stubbers. Personally, I suspect the Cadians will be able to waltz through this one, assuming the scientist is able to hold up his side of the deal.

And, as has been pointed out, using children as human shields isn't going to deter Cadian shocktroopers noticeably.

[brianeyci]

We've seen enough of GROPOS.





The soldiers were put in an impossible situation. B5 security had a chokepoint and superior numbers. Not to mention for the soldiers to get to the command deck, they would've had to fight through who knows how many chokepoints. They didn't have a chance.

Still, there's several glaring problems. The equipment is piss poor. Whenever anybody calls those soldiers "marines" I have to supress a giggle. They look like Vietnam War era army marines, not marines dedicated to boarding enemy ships. They have explosives to blow through doors but haven't thought of grenades.

And of course the killer problem. Station security is supposed to have PPG's because they don't want to damage the station with bullets, right? Why should boarding grunts follow that stupid rule? They should wear rebreathers and carry weapons powerful enough to blow through body armor, and wear interceptor armor themselves. Starhunter, a UK television series about space pirates had pirates wearing rebreathers with weapons that actually blew chunks out of walls, but B5 army doesn't.

Better than Starfleet, since they've got helmets, but not by much. At least certain kinds of phaser rifles have a little kick to it, and kill with a technobabble as long as you hit in the torso. PPG's just sear, so if the Jaffas are tough they'll grit their teeth and keep on fighting unless the hit's to a vital organ. IIRC, there were plenty of soldiers left alive after the hand-to-hand fight, to the point it looked like the entire deck was on the grount moaning and groaning from burn wounds (see the blond woman, she's still alive.)

So in answer to the question, I believe they would do worse than the movie, and might even get pasted by the Jaffa.

[Ford Prefect]

Hellguns are standard issue for Cadian shock troopers.

No, hellguns are standard issue for Cadian kasrkin, which are basically the Cadian equivalent of Storm Troopers anyway. They'e equipped with lasguns, which are nothing to sneeze at. The actual support weapons could be anything, of course. Given that this is less than a squad, however, I doubt they'd be carrying a heavy weapon like a heavy bolter, or an autocannon, or a lascannon. They're probably going to have something like a grenade launcher or melta or another special weapon, though.

[Chris OFarrell]

Actually the B5 commando team should have won that engagement. They had at least a few fire teams out and in cover, holding as the rest of the marines swarmed out and they got hit with the NARN CHARGE, where the Narns thought it was a great idea to run into the fire at full speed, perhaps once in a while firing from the hip, B5 security following right behind -though at least SOME tried to take cover and fire.

The GROPOS should have easily mowed them down, especially with the NARN's charging in a huge mass at ten-fifteen meters distance, but via act of plot, they got into HTH range.

Jaffa have been shown to sometimes take glancing staff hits, which impress me a whole lot more then PPG's and keep on trucking. Though Anubis's bodyguards (who I remain convinced are in fact minor Goa'uld, not humans) wear far more ceremonial armor which provides little real cover. Their staffs though, are way more powerful then the typical Jaffa staff, on par with a Staff Cannon when they REALLY power up. They'll blow the GROPOS away with a hit, of that I have no doubt.

[NecronLord]

Hellguns are standard issue for Cadian shock troopers.

No they're not. They're standard issue for Kasrkin. Random Cadian shock troops have lasguns. I direct you to the Munitorum Manual, which goes into great detail about the logistics of a standard Cadian regiment, including its recruitment, armament, training, leadership, resupply in the field, and so on.

As for the GROPOS, I think it's fair to assume they're vaguely reasonably equipped - we don't see many actual soldiers in B5, but there's no reason the Earth Alliance should have forgotten everything about the twentieth century... I don't even know if the guys in Severed Dreams even were GROPOS, I would have imagined they were some kind of boarding specialists. Even then, they should be quite able to gun down Ra's servants without heavy weapons, if they're given as many chances as the group in the film were; they shouldn't have too much difficulty convincing the Abydonians to aid them, assuming their scientist does what Jackson did.

[brianeyci]

Fuck I forgot about the Narn Charge.

Although act of plot is not an excuse in the case of PPG's. I think they worked perfectly as advertised... the Narns are tough motherfuckers and take a lot of pain, and the PPG's worked exactly as advertised.

Sisko has more of an excuse in AR-558. I was fully expecting them to rig a phaser up with continuous fire given, oh I don't know, we've seen Type-III fire continuously before. Sisko had fully automatic weapons, or at least weapons that should have been automatic, and couldn't hold a chokepoint. That's what I call act of plot.

[Batman]

We've seen enough of GROPOS.
Still, there's several glaring problems. The equipment is piss poor. Whenever anybody calls those soldiers "marines" I have to supress a giggle. They look like Vietnam War era army marines, not marines dedicated to boarding enemy ships. They have explosives to blow through doors but haven't thought of grenades.
And of course the killer problem. Station security is supposed to have PPG's because they don't want to damage the station with bullets, right?

Which is why PPGs totally weren't capable of blowing through metal in Endgame. Oh wait.

Why should boarding grunts follow that stupid rule? They should wear rebreathers and carry weapons powerful enough to blow through body armor, and wear interceptor armor themselves.

That'd be the part where a) PPGs positively ARE capable of blowing through body armour as evidenced in Severed Dreams, and b) maybe they didn't want holes in the hull (which wouldn't have happened anyway before anyone mentions it but it was Bryan who brought up that particular reason for EarthForce using PPGs) on account of trying to RECAPTURE B5? As opposed to blowing it out of space?
Starhunter, a UK television series about space pirates had pirates wearing rebreathers with weapons that actually blew chunks out of walls, but B5 army doesn't.

Better than Starfleet, since they've got helmets, but not by much. At least certain kinds of phaser rifles have a little kick to it, and kill with a technobabble as long as you hit in the torso. PPG's just sear,

Which is why nobody ever died from a PPG hit to the shoulder. Oh wait.
And UNLIKE TNG phasers, Earthforce PPGs are actually marginally AIMABLE.

so if the Jaffas are tough they'll grit their teeth and keep on fighting unless the hit's to a vital organ.

Like the shoulder. Oh wait.