ST vs B5 Boarding Action (B5 Defending)

[Ted C]

Gowron's fleet from "Way of the Warrior" attacks Babylon 5. Their objective is to capture the station with minimal damage.

How long until the station falls?

[Shadow Walker]

If they really want to capture it, and absolutely don't want to destroy B5, the Klingons are all corpses. These are people who drop guns in favor of knives. Besides, B5 people are better at hand to hand anyway. (not that its a major factor; B5 security wouldn't let them into mellee distance.)

[Master of Ossus]

Are there any estimates as to the number of Klingon troops involved in the attack? B5 only has a few thousand personnel, and only a few hundred security officers and soldiers on board. I actually think the Klingons have a fair to reasonable chance of taking the station within a few hours, and asserting complete control within six.

[Solid Snake]

Are there any estimates as to the number of Klingon troops involved in the attack? B5 only has a few thousand personnel, and only a few hundred security officers and soldiers on board. I actually think the Klingons have a fair to reasonable chance of taking the station within a few hours, and asserting complete control within six.

Um... Riiiiiiiiight.
The same dumbasses that drop guns and pull out stupid looking swords. Unless Klingon Warriors can deflect PPG fire with their bat'leths, B5 wins.

[Master of Ossus]

Are there any estimates as to the number of Klingon troops involved in the attack? B5 only has a few thousand personnel, and only a few hundred security officers and soldiers on board. I actually think the Klingons have a fair to reasonable chance of taking the station within a few hours, and asserting complete control within six.

Um... Riiiiiiiiight.
The same dumbasses that drop guns and pull out stupid looking swords. Unless Klingon Warriors can deflect PPG fire with their bat'leths, B5 wins.

B5 security forces did the exact same thing in "Severed Dreams," except that they did not have knives or swords to fall back on, and relied on electric billy-clubs and their bare hands.

[Ted C]

B5 security forces did the exact same thing in "Severed Dreams," except that they did not have knives or swords to fall back on, and relied on electric billy-clubs and their bare hands.

MoO's got a point. The fighting in "Severed Dreams" did end up in HTH after a while.

In theory, the Klingons will be able to deploy troops directly to vital areas, as well, avoiding the difficulties of breaking through the hull and overcoming defended choke points.

[DocMoriartty]

Bab5 has a dense armored hull and a huge reactor that probably kicks out lots of interference. My bet is that Klingons will be very limited in where they can transport in if they can at all.

Bab5 ship weapons also show themselves to be orders of magnitude more accurate than ST weapons. When big ships duke it out they hit 90% plus of the time unless the ships have interceptor guns firing. So ST ships are going to get pegged and pegged often.

Assuming that Bab5 weapons can break ST shields the assault is going to be VERY expensive for the Klingons.

None of this takes into account how the Klingons will deal with Starfuries (who fly like actual spaceships) Whitestars (who are easily as manueveryable as Defiants and do Defiants one better with annying uber adaptive armor) or the large Mimbari Cruisers of which two are always in the area of Bab5.

[Sir Sirius]

Bab5 has a dense armored hull and a huge reactor that probably kicks out lots of interference. My bet is that Klingons will be very limited in where they can transport in if they can at all.

Judging by the the rather low mass of the B5 station the hull neither dense nor thick and I doubt that an ordinary fusion reactor creates interference that would bother transporters.

Bab5 ship weapons also show themselves to be orders of magnitude more accurate than ST weapons. When big ships duke it out they hit 90% plus of the time unless the ships have interceptor guns firing. So ST ships are going to get pegged and pegged often.

Max transporter range is 40.000 kilometers. The Klingons don't need to close with in firing range at all to be able to beam aboard.

None of this takes into account how the Klingons will deal with Starfuries (who fly like actual spaceships)...

B5 has only 48 slow, unshielded Starfury's with short effective firing range. Not much of a problem for the Klingons.

...Whitestars (who are easily as manueveryable as Defiants and do Defiants one better with annying uber adaptive armor) or the large Mimbari Cruisers of which two are always in the area of Bab5.

There are no Whitestars or Mimbari cruisers involved in this scenario or at least Ted C makes no mention of them in his post.

[consequences]

Depending upon the exact point in the B5 hronology that the attack takes place, there might always be some white stars and minbari ships around.

Worst case, B5 concentates their personnel on absolutely critical areas,and floods the rest of the station with knockout gas.

[Ted C]

Judging by the the rather low mass of the B5 station the hull neither dense nor thick and I doubt that an ordinary fusion reactor creates interference that would bother transporters.

Indeed, the station's mass is astonishingly low for something of it's size, and I don't think the fusion reactor will create significant interference.

Max transporter range is 40.000 kilometers. The Klingons don't need to close with in firing range at all to be able to beam aboard.

The 40,000 km range for ship-to-ship transport is hard to support. We've seen a shuttle get out of range of transporters despite it having barely left the shuttlebay. B5 is a relatively large and predictable target for transports, but the station probably has ECM that will make the job hard enough to pull the Klingons into weapon range.

B5 has only 48 slow, unshielded Starfury's with short effective firing range. Not much of a problem for the Klingons.

Klingon ships have relatively narrow fire arcs, so eliminating EarthForce fighters won't be that easy, but it's unlikely that Starfuries have the firepower to seriously threaten Klingon warships.

There are no Whitestars or Mimbari cruisers involved in this scenario or at least Ted C makes no mention of them in his post.

I suppose that it's feasible to assume B5 has it's typical defensive fleet, circa season 3-4. This fleet is composed primarily of League ships, although a couple of Minbari cruisers are often present.

[DocMoriartty]

You know it would be nice on ocassion to see ST actually DEMONSTRATE on screen these abilities.

Klingon ships got within spitting range of DS9 to attack it. Hardly the 40,000 klicks you suggest.

Most Klingon ships fly like big fighters. You fly like a fighter then you will get your ass handed to you by something that flies better like a fighter.


BTW, you want to end this real fast? Ok, lets end it fast.

Klingon fleet shows up to kick ass. Unlike the shadows though they have no warning about the planet below and have no reason or even ability to jam all of B5's channels.

Great machine on planet below turns Klingon fleet into many rapidly expanding balls of fire.

There are also other items to consider. Klingons use warp. Bab5 uses hyperspace. If BAB5 has any warning at all of the attack they could have ships waiting in hyperspace right outside the jumpgate. The Klingons arrive and are instantly flanked by Bab5 forces that drop in through the gate.

Hell if they are Bab5 cap ships they could drop right into the middle of the Klingon fleet. We have seen what happens (and it is not good) when a ship is too good to a jump points energy swirl.

[Sir Sirius]

Worst case, B5 concentates their personnel on absolutely critical areas,and floods the rest of the station with knockout gas.

When and where were these knockout gas dispensers cabable of flooding the entire station mentioned?
They sure would have needed them in Thirdspace, but they didn't use them.

The 40,000 km range for ship-to-ship transport is hard to support. We've seen a shuttle get out of range of transporters despite it having barely left the shuttlebay. B5 is a relatively large and predictable target for transports, but the station probably has ECM that will make the job hard enough to pull the Klingons into weapon range.

A little more details on the shuttle insident would be nice. (could it have been that were unable to beam through the shuttles shields?)
The ECM thing is a bit unsubstantiated, but assuming that it is true it would make the battle harder for the Klingons, but they would still be firing at a stationary target with no shields. I doubt that B5 could hold out very long, though capturing the station with out harming it would be nearly impossible.

I suppose that it's feasible to assume B5 has it's typical defensive fleet, circa season 3-4. This fleet is composed primarily of League ships, although a couple of Minbari cruisers are often present.

This would put a whole new spin on the scenario. How many ships and what ships would there be defending B5 and howmany ships and which ships were then in the Klingon invasion fleet in "Way of the Warrior"?

BTW Mimbari Vs. Klingons would deserve a thread of it's own.

You know it would be nice on ocassion to see ST actually DEMONSTRATE on screen these abilities.

TNG second season episode "A Matter of Honour".

Klingon ships got within spitting range of DS9 to attack it. Hardly the 40,000 klicks you suggest.

DS9 has shields B5 doesn't, the Klingons can't beam through shields.

Most Klingon ships fly like big fighters. You fly like a fighter then you will get your ass handed to you by something that flies better like a fighter.

???
Please explain this.

BTW, you want to end this real fast? Ok, lets end it fast.
<snip rest>

...Q appears snaps his fingers and all those ships dissapear.
Is this theard supposed to be the Klingon invasion fleet Vs. B5 or the Klingon invasion fleet Vs. all of Babylon5 universe?

Hell if they are Bab5 cap ships they could drop right into the middle of the Klingon fleet. We have seen what happens (and it is not good) when a ship is too good to a jump points energy swirl.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we have seen this tactic used only once, in ACtA and the mimbari had to lure the EA fleet to a specific predetermined position so that the Drala'fi could get a "jump" on them.

[DocMoriartty]

The tactic was used twice and happened at least by chance several other times.

1. Mimbari fleet attacking Earth does this to Sheridans ship the Lexington.

2. The bonhead maneuver.

3. A couple times in the show or in the movies you see fighters vaped when they are too close to a cap ship that is escaling using its jump drive.

I think #1 could be easily done since the Klingon fleet will be right outside Bab5's door.

Klingon BOP ships swoop around the screen like hunting eagles all the time. It first happened in ST3 when the BOP made its swooping attack run on the freighter and from there became the defacto method of combat for BOP. BOP make up what? 75% plus of the Klingon fleet?

Thirdspace was at least half the station revolting while more than half the stations systems went off-line. I am sure there were lots of things the crew wished it could do that those two rather unique situations kept from happening. You are right though, there is no evidence that Bab5 can pull a ST and instantly fill an area of a ship with some sort of gas (though in ST this is only ever done for medical reasons or the one time by Data to clear the Bridge and take it over)


You missed my point about ST demonstrating on-screen. Trek says all of its tech works over 10's of thousands of miles. If weapons shoot that damn far then why are ships always within tens of miles apart in the show? (I know otherwise the shot onscreen would look dumb but it is still canon). Going by the episode Trek cannot do anything that is not as close as say two old sailing ships had to get to each other to fire broadsides.

The Great Machine is located directly below B5 and after season 3 there is a permanent squadron at least of ships around B5.

[Coaan]

Is this theard supposed to be the Klingon invasion fleet Vs. B5 or the Klingon invasion fleet Vs. all of Babylon5 universe?

It's shown right through series 3-5 that b5 was made up of most of the races in their galaxy and there was always a multi-species fleet around the station as defence....as someone stated, it depends what series the station is in when the klingons attack

[Ted C]

The 40,000 km range for ship-to-ship transport is hard to support. We've seen a shuttle get out of range of transporters despite it having barely left the shuttlebay. B5 is a relatively large and predictable target for transports, but the station probably has ECM that will make the job hard enough to pull the Klingons into weapon range.

A little more details on the shuttle insident would be nice. (could it have been that were unable to beam through the shuttles shields?)

TNG episode "Coming of Age". A teenager named Jake Kurland steals a shuttle because he's afraid of disappointing his father by failing the Starfleet entrance exam. The shuttle malfunctions and starts falling toward the planet they're orbiting. Picard has to talk the kid through "skipping" off the atmosphere to save him, because the tractor beam and transporters are out of range.

The ECM thing is a bit unsubstantiated, but assuming that it is true it would make the battle harder for the Klingons, but they would still be firing at a stationary target with no shields. I doubt that B5 could hold out very long, though capturing the station with out harming it would be nearly impossible.

I suppose it is, but in "The Fall of Night", it took a Centauri battlecruiser a couple of minutes of continuous targeting efforts to obtain a lock (based on the time between when Corwyn reported that the Centauri ship was targeting the station and the time when he said their weapons were locking). Without countermeasures of some sort, getting a weapon lock should have been immediate. ECM is common today, so I don't see how it's much of a stretch to assume that EarthForce has it.

I suppose that it's feasible to assume B5 has it's typical defensive fleet, circa season 3-4. This fleet is composed primarily of League ships, although a couple of Minbari cruisers are often present.

This would put a whole new spin on the scenario. How many ships and what ships would there be defending B5 and howmany ships and which ships were then in the Klingon invasion fleet in "Way of the Warrior"?

I doubt if it would be possible to get an accurate count. I'm less interested in the space battle than I am in the boarding action, anyway.

[Captain Kruger]

I think we're going off track here. I think what Ted is looking for is what will happen if Klingon troops come aboard and have a kill-fest with the defending Human/Narn security squads. All this other stuff seems somewhat off-topic. Is that right, Ted?

If the Klingons can put their transporters to work, then the battle is over before it really begins. So let's assume they can't beam in for some reason and have to come in by shuttles, etc.

Disruptors/bat'leths vs. PPGs. Who wins?

[DocMoriartty]

Earthforce for sure. They can shoot straight and understand how to fire from cover. Rate of fire from PPG's mean that charging hordes of Klingons will get mowed down in one big messy pile.

I think we're going off track here. I think what Ted is looking for is what will happen if Klingon troops come aboard and have a kill-fest with the defending Human/Narn security squads. All this other stuff seems somewhat off-topic. Is that right, Ted?

If the Klingons can put their transporters to work, then the battle is over before it really begins. So let's assume they can't beam in for some reason and have to come in by shuttles, etc.

Disruptors/bat'leths vs. PPGs. Who wins?

[Ted C]

I think we're going off track here. I think what Ted is looking for is what will happen if Klingon troops come aboard and have a kill-fest with the defending Human/Narn security squads. All this other stuff seems somewhat off-topic. Is that right, Ted?

To a large extent, yes.

If the Klingons can put their transporters to work, then the battle is over before it really begins. So let's assume they can't beam in for some reason and have to come in by shuttles, etc.

Actually, I think it's reasonable to assume that they will use transporters to get into the ship, but they are likely to appear in fairly small groups scattered throughout the station. This would be similar to their deployment in "Way of the Warrior".

Disruptors/bat'leths vs. PPGs. Who wins?

I think this is more a question of how long can the defenders keep the invaders from having effective control of the station. I don't think I've given them a chance of actually repelling the boarders.

[HemlockGrey]

Assuming the Klingon fleet somehow overpowers B5's defenses, they simply beam the security forces into space and then seize control.

[Ted C]

Assuming the Klingon fleet somehow overpowers B5's defenses, they simply beam the security forces into space and then seize control.

Even if we were to assume that were feasible, has anyone from any organization in all of Star Trek (Federation, Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, etc.) ever even suggested such a tactic?

Let's not throw precedent to the wind, eh?

[Sea Skimmer]

The Klingon fleet would easily disable the station. After that, shear numbers and close quarters are going to bring victory. When they boarded DS9, some did fight hand to hand on the bridge, but we also saw them moving around in the more open promenade deck shooting.

[Howedar]

B5 forces will wipe the floor with Klingon boarders, but there's just too few of them. That, and the Klingon fleet could destroy the station at any time at the drop of a hat.

[seanrobertson]

I suppose it is, but in "The Fall of Night", it took a Centauri battlecruiser a couple of minutes of continuous targeting efforts to obtain a lock (based on the time between when Corwyn reported that the Centauri ship was targeting the station and the time when he said their weapons were locking). Without countermeasures of some sort, getting a weapon lock should have been immediate. ECM is common today, so I don't see how it's much of a stretch to assume that EarthForce has it.

I agree.

Even though I don't know how this is turning into a fleet engagement, it be possible for the Klingons to obtain a lock while they remained cloaked.
B5 personnel might be able to detect the weapons lock somehow
but wouldn't be able to do much about it.

I doubt if it would be possible to get an accurate count. I'm less interested in the space battle than I am in the boarding action, anyway.

I gathered Hehe...I'm with you. It's a lot more fun to talk
about a boarding action for a change!

As for the "Way of the Warrior" fleet, Kira said it consisted of
"several dozen Klingon warships." The FX guys claimed that
they wanted it to appear as if "two hundred" ships were moving
toward DS9, but I think that's very unreliable. Besideswhich,
dozens of ships is more than enough to take care of a few
Warcruisers, a WS and a ragtag League ship or three.

To the thread at hand...hmm. I honestly don't know. Klingons
can be pretty tough when they're not fighting little Bajoran women,
hot Trills, and bald overactors, but before we really talked about unit v. unit, we'd have to decide the sizes of the respective combatants.

I definitely have no idea how many troops the "WoTW" fleet carried. The Negh'Var could accomodate hundreds of troops--perhaps thousands if the militarized E-D in "Yesterday's Ent" is an indication. But it might be the case that they can only beam about 8-10 guys in one area at a time...
otherwise, I would've sent all of my troops to DS9's command
center simultaneously rather than beaming a bunch of them
over near Quarks' to run around the promenade.

One trick that might help, if it'd work, would be to employ
the trick Dax used in "Blood Oath": modify a disruptor array
to bathe B5 in some kind of technobabble. I believe, but
could be wrong, that she said it'd prevent particle weapons
from working. It might only be a very specific type of weapon
that's disabled by this stuff, and it'd seem to have not been
used on DS9 (Klingons probably are ignorant of it). Some
of that might be explained away as not being able to get the
technobabble through DS9's shields, however, which were only
down for a brief period during the Klingon attack.

We could guess the Klingons are too stupid to use such
a trick and might consider it "dishonorable" anyhow. I imagine
they'd plow into the station with bat'leths and voices raised
so the defenders could hear them coming, whatever else happens

[Sam Or I]

What about "the great machine" down on the planet? Would this play into effect (or even be allowed) in this senario?

[Master of Ossus]

Bab5 has a dense armored hull and a huge reactor that probably kicks out lots of interference. My bet is that Klingons will be very limited in where they can transport in if they can at all.

Perhaps. I assumed for my scenario that the Klingons would be limited to transport, but I don't think that the hull would have much to do with that.

Bab5 ship weapons also show themselves to be orders of magnitude more accurate than ST weapons. When big ships duke it out they hit 90% plus of the time unless the ships have interceptor guns firing. So ST ships are going to get pegged and pegged often.

And your evidence for these claims is? BTW, are you seriously suggesting that the weapons in B5 are hundreds of times more accurate than ST ships? I find that absurd. Moreover, I find it absurd that you expect a Klingon ship to be destroyed, or even damaged, by the weapons on B5 whereas the Klingon weapons could not harm the 5 MILE LONG station. Moreover, you are ignoring the prompt.

Assuming that Bab5 weapons can break ST shields the assault is going to be VERY expensive for the Klingons.

Too bad, they can't break Klingon shields.

None of this takes into account how the Klingons will deal with Starfuries (who fly like actual spaceships) Whitestars (who are easily as manueveryable as Defiants and do Defiants one better with annying uber adaptive armor) or the large Mimbari Cruisers of which two are always in the area of Bab5.

LMAO!