Pre-birth manslaughter

[Phillip Hone]

In America, there is a large anti-abortion movement that considers terminating a fetus at any stage "murder", usually because they believe that it has a "soul", therefore it's a person.

How ever, abortions don't account for all of these "unborn" children that are lost. Some are simply the result of miscarriages. What I've been wondering about lately is if there's also a fundie movement to charge women who have miscarriages with 2nd degree murder, or at least some kind of negligence. Obviously there are a lot of cases where it wasn't the mother's fault in anyway, but it still seems strange that there aren't more people from the fundie pro-life camp looking into this.

[Broomstick]

In America, there is a large anti-abortion movement that considers terminating a fetus at any stage "murder", usually because they believe that it has a "soul", therefore it's a person.

How ever, abortions don't account for all of these "unborn" children that are lost. Some are simply the result of miscarriages. What I've been wondering about lately is if there's also a fundie movement to charge women who have miscarriages with 2nd degree murder, or at least some kind of negligence. Obviously there are a lot of cases where it wasn't the mother's fault in anyway, but it still seems strange that there aren't more people from the fundie pro-life camp looking into this.

Historically, there have been instances of women being charged in the event of miscarriage, some of them dating back to Medieval Europe.

There have also been attempts to prosecute women who smoke or drink or take drugs while pregnant for child abuse. So far as I know they have been unsuccessful.

[Mobiboros]

What I've been wondering about lately is if there's also a fundie movement to charge women who have miscarriages with 2nd degree murder, or at least some kind of negligence.

I'll explain this with an anecdote as to why no such movement exists.

My wife and I lost a child at 19 weeks. I'll briefly say it was the absolute worst moment of our lives, and leave it at that. But afterwards we got the same stock reply from nurses and family "Well, you just need to trust that it's part of God's plan.". Or some variant of it. Now, I'm guessing this is great comfort to Christians. I'm Buddhist. It pissed me off after I'd heard it 20+ times. But that's why no movement exists. Because they believe that miscarriages are all part of Gods plan.

[Darth Wong]

In America, there is a large anti-abortion movement that considers terminating a fetus at any stage "murder", usually because they believe that it has a "soul", therefore it's a person.

Strange enough however, probably half of those people think it's OK in the case of rape. No idea how an anti-abortion person reconciles this in his mind, since according to his ideology, that's still murder.

How ever, abortions don't account for all of these "unborn" children that are lost. Some are simply the result of miscarriages. What I've been wondering about lately is if there's also a fundie movement to charge women who have miscarriages with 2nd degree murder, or at least some kind of negligence. Obviously there are a lot of cases where it wasn't the mother's fault in anyway, but it still seems strange that there aren't more people from the fundie pro-life camp looking into this.

It's not just fundies; if a woman decides to carry a child to term and takes all manner of drugs and alcohol while the child is pregnant, she is ethically responsible for any resulting damage.

In the present time-frame, a fetus is a future-value proposition, which means (as strange as this may sound) that its future value flips from 0 to 1 the moment the mother decides she will carry it to term. At that point, any harm the mother inflicts upon the fetus will impact the future value of the child. Some anti-abortion types like to try and paint this as a weak spot for pro-abortion forces, as if the pro-abortion position must mean that you ignore the concept of future consequence. But the fact is that these kinds of negligent decisions will cause suffering at some point in the future, whereas an abortion causes no suffering to anyone but the mother.

[Zixinus]

How ever, abortions don't account for all of these "unborn" children that are lost. Some are simply the result of miscarriages. What I've been wondering about lately is if there's also a fundie movement to charge women who have miscarriages with 2nd degree murder, or at least some kind of negligence. Obviously there are a lot of cases where it wasn't the mother's fault in anyway, but it still seems strange that there aren't more people from the fundie pro-life camp looking into this.

There is also a more simple reason: the fundies that are againts abortion and the like don't actually care about the babies or their souls. They care about imposing their will. They are hypocrites trough and trough, they are only interested in gaining power and imposing their own and they get political backing by doing this. If they are no such as hypocrites, then they are medieval-fuckwards that views the most horrible part of written history with pink, rose-beaded glasses.

[Oskuro]

On that note, at least around here it's ironic how those who oppose abortion more adamantly (almost invariably the right-wing upper-class conservatives) have always been the first to pay for their daughter's abortions whenever they get knocked-up out of wedlock.


And, following the trend set in the OP, I also wonder how come the "future life" argument hasn't been used to coerce kids out of masturbation... my guess is that implying girls should be pregnant with each period (to avoid wasting the "future life" of the egg) is too large a can of worms to open.

[Tsyroc]

I don't think this is actually charging the mothers but here in Arizona if a newborn tests positive for illegal drugs CPS is immediately called. I don't know whether the mother is charged with child abuse or just at risk of losing custody of her newborn.

Incidently, it is illegal for the hospital to test the mother's blood for illegal drugs without her permission, but if it's suspsected that she's a drug user the baby's blood can be checked after the baby is born.

It really sucks seeing and hearing newborns and premies going through withdrawal, and it isn't always just illegal drugs that they are in withdrawal from.

[Broomstick]

When I worked in Illinois with drug abusers, pregnant abusers had a choice of either cooperating with CPS/entering treatment, or losing custody at birth.

There were some attempts to prosecute women for child abuse - I don't know what, if any, verdict(s) was reached.

Sometimes a mother does require medication in order to keep healthy, and that's unfortunate - but very different from women who take potentially hazardous substances they don't have to.

[Tsyroc]

We do get mothers who come in to deliver and they are on legal, prescribed maintenance doses of methadone. Which still means the poor kid is going to be having some withdrawals after the fun experience of being born.

[Enola Straight]

I don't think this is actually charging the mothers but here in Arizona if a newborn tests positive for illegal drugs CPS is immediately called. I don't know whether the mother is charged with child abuse or just at risk of losing custody of her newborn.

Incidently, it is illegal for the hospital to test the mother's blood for illegal drugs without her permission, but if it's suspsected that she's a drug user the baby's blood can be checked after the baby is born.

It really sucks seeing and hearing newborns and premies going through withdrawal, and it isn't always just illegal drugs that they are in withdrawal from.

I believe childbirth is an often bloody affair. And since you essentially lose any say-so over biological samples after they leave your body, the afterbirth can easily be tested for illicit substances.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

I don't think this is actually charging the mothers but here in Arizona if a newborn tests positive for illegal drugs CPS is immediately called. I don't know whether the mother is charged with child abuse or just at risk of losing custody of her newborn.

Incidently, it is illegal for the hospital to test the mother's blood for illegal drugs without her permission, but if it's suspsected that she's a drug user the baby's blood can be checked after the baby is born.

It really sucks seeing and hearing newborns and premies going through withdrawal, and it isn't always just illegal drugs that they are in withdrawal from.

I believe childbirth is an often bloody affair. And since you essentially lose any say-so over biological samples after they leave your body, the afterbirth can easily be tested for illicit substances.

In Canada, that would require parental consent. Otherwise, it's an invasion of privacy.