A 'Man' about to give birth

[pucky18]

There is no evidence that i have seen that their brain is "wired differently." If you have some, please share it. The fact remains, however, that unless they can change every single chromosome in their body, and completely replace their reproductive system, and make numerous other chemical and structural changes, they are still the same gender that they were born with. Why should others believe they are a different gender, when they are not? For example, if I claimed that I were a different ethnicity than I am, and labeled it so on a census, than I would be lying, no matter how much i believed it.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It isn't even an issue of brain wiring, really. The fundamental philosophical point is that you should treat people as they desire to be treated unless they give you a damn good reason to do otherwise. If someone looks like a man, treat them like a man. If someone looks like a woman, treat them like a woman. If you're not sure, ask, and treat them as they wish.

The idea that you have some right to lift up someone's skirt or unzip their pants and determine how to treat them based on that, that you have the right to karyotype someone and treat them based on that result, is incredibly offensive. It is bigoted, immoral, and based on a fundamentalist ideology which presupposes that the government, that society, have the right to inquire about the details of someone's private life and genitals. It is the very essence of totalitarian populist conservatism, the idea that you can make these details the subject of public knowledge, conversation, and legislation.

You can't. You have no right to.

On the other hand, if you were enough of a dumbass to ask the girl next to you in class if she was a transexual or just had high testosterone levels that caused her to have a hairy lip, it would be well within her rights, no matter the actual answer to that question, to punch your stupid face in, because that question is offensive no matter the answer, and it being the first case doesn't excuse the fact that you've been offensive.

[pucky18]

I am not saying I have a right inquire or intrude upon their personal lives, to confirm any suspicions or curiosities I might have. I am not saying that they should be treated differently than what they would wish to be. I have not said this in any of my posts, and you set up a nice little strawman by implying so. All I am saying is that, technically, they are still the gender they were born with.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

There is no evidence that i have seen that their brain is "wired differently." If you have some, please share it. The fact remains, however, that unless they can change every single chromosome in their body, and completely replace their reproductive system, and make numerous other chemical and structural changes, they are still the same gender that they were born with. Why should others believe they are a different gender, when they are not? For example, if I claimed that I were a different ethnicity than I am, and labeled it so on a census, than I would be lying, no matter how much i believed it.

Oh fuck off, you little fucking bigot.

First of all, you're Liar, or an idiot, as the studies have been done twice, controlled for hormone therapy, which show that transexual women (i.e., XY chromosomes) have the same BSTc neuron density (a region of the brain known to control sex expression in rats) as women, not men. And remember, this is controlled for hormone therapy--some of them were off hormones for a long period of time, one had never taken them, they all had the same, female-sized BSTc, whereas in the control group of men studied, several had been on feminizing hormones as a treatment for certain kinds of cancers. Here's a link to the full study to make things more clear.

Furthermore, chromosome structure does not matter for that much, dumbass. It's entirely possible for someone with an XY chromosome set to be born entirely female in the first place. This is called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, which means their bodies don't process testosterone, so they develop entirely female, and most even don't know they're XY until the age of 16 or so when they go to the doctor, not having started menstruating.

They're sterile, certainly, but if you deny womanhood, or manhood, to those who are sterile, you are denying it to hundreds of millions of people--if not more. Do women stop being women when they go through menopause, you arrogant little fuckhead?

And of course you're completely ignoring the fact that you have no right to demand the karyotype or anatomical structure of the genitals of a stranger.

P.S. There's a very common genetic disorder called Klinefelter's that results in a person being born with XXY chromosome set. They develop as males, but sterile, and have a higher rate of transexualism than the baseline population. YOU could have Klinefelter's and simply not know it right now, dumbass.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I am not saying I have a right inquire or intrude upon their personal lives, to confirm any suspicions or curiosities I might have. I am not saying that they should be treated differently than what they would wish to be. I have not said this in any of my posts, and you set up a nice little strawman by implying so. All I am saying is that, technically, they are still the gender they were born with.

Except you're the one who is strawmanning, you worthless fucktard.

It's dictionary time!



Main Entry:
1gen·der Listen to the pronunciation of 1gender
Pronunciation:
\ˈjen-dər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English gendre, from Anglo-French genre, gendre, from Latin gener-, genus birth, race, kind, gender — more at kin
Date:
14th century

1 a: a subclass within a grammatical class (as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms b: membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass c: an inflectional form showing membership in such a subclass2 a: sex <the feminine gender>
b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex


Yes, they do belong to the gender they behave as part of. The conflation of the terms sex (which is biological) and gender (which is social) is a common mistake--but make no mistake, they are different.

And even in terms of biological sex, it is quite possible for a sufficient number of reconstructive surgeries to complete the correction of transexual women, or transexual men, to the point where they are anatomically correct in all areas except the primary reproductive organs, i.e. the same as any sterile individual of their identified gender, of which there are plenty, including potentially yourself. And as noted their brain structure in the crucial areas already matches their identified sex, and guess what, that's a far more important determinator of sex in sentient creatures than your idiotic method of bloodtesting.

[Rye]

All I am saying is that, technically, they are still the gender they were born with.

So, do you think gender identity is merely a case of binary opposition and that transgendered people and intersex people simply need to stop "kidding themselves" over where their identities lie? If so, where's your evidence for this?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

All I am saying is that, technically, they are still the gender they were born with.

So, do you think gender identity is merely a case of binary opposition and that transgendered people and intersex people simply need to stop "kidding themselves" over where their identities lie? If so, where's your evidence for this?

Apparently we should take away his man card, because he might be sterile himself.

[pucky18]

First of all, you're Liar, or an idiot, as the studies have been done twice, controlled for hormone therapy, which show that transexual women (i.e., XY chromosomes) have the same BSTc neuron density (a region of the brain known to control sex expression in rats) as women, not men.

Point conceded, although I said that I had not seen evidence, not that the evidence did not exist.

Furthermore, I have never said that I, or anyone else, has the right to demand personal information. I have never said that I desire that knowledge. All I have said that is that they were, in the most technical sense, still the gender they were born with. I fully support them if they choose to say that they are the gender they choose, and I will treat them as such. I have never shown any hostility towards them, other than questioning what determines gender.

Furthermore, chromosome structure does not matter for that much, dumbass. It's entirely possible for someone with an XY chromosome set to be born entirely female in the first place. This is called Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, which means their bodies don't process testosterone, so they develop entirely female, and most even don't know they're XY until the age of 16 or so when they go to the doctor, not having started menstruating.

I am not very well versed in genetics or related topics. I was unaware of this information. I apologize for my ignorance on the subject, and retract that statement.

Do women stop being women when they go through menopause, you arrogant little fuckhead?

I have never said that sterile people are not the gender they are, and have not even mentioned sterility.

And of course you're completely ignoring the fact that you have no right to demand the karyotype or anatomical structure of the genitals of a stranger.

Again, I have never said that I had the right to pry into their personal matters.

[Broomstick]

There is no evidence that i have seen that their brain is "wired differently." If you have some, please share it. The fact remains, however, that unless they can change every single chromosome in their body, and completely replace their reproductive system, and make numerous other chemical and structural changes, they are still the same gender that they were born with.

There are people who have XY chromosomes yet from the moment of birth they appear female and act female, and the birth defect is frequently not discovered until they are in their late teens and a doctor is investigating why the young woman isn't menstruating yet. There are people with XX chromosomes who from the moment of birth appear entirely male, and the birth defect not discovered until a doctor is investigating a married couple's infertility.

Granted, these are rare extremes, but at times the gender instructions do get garbled during development. This gives rise to the above conditions, as well as various forms of being "intersexed" with genitals that may be abnormal or 'ambiguous". By extension, if gender affects the brain, then brain development going awry could result in a "female" brain in a male body or vice versa. This is being studied, but there not definitive proof either way that this does or does not happen. There have been studies that reported differences between the trangendered and normal brains, but the samples are small and the results have not always been reproduced.

Gender has three components - physically, mental, and societal. Physically most of us are clearly one or the other (although among the intersexed this is not so). There are societal gender roles, and there are homosexuals who "violate" these roles without actually rejecting their gender. For example, a femme gay man may act in the social role of a woman - as a "wife" to another man, for example, taking care of the house and so forth - but is completely clear that he is a man and has no desire to be anything but (a very femme) man. The counterpart might be a butch lesibian who works in construction, wears pants and never dresses, and supports a "wife" (perhaps a very feminine lesbian) but who is also very clear that she is, was, and always will be a woman. But note that for these homosexuals two out of the three roles are in sync, and one of those 'in sync" are the mental state.

For the transgendered (as I understand it - I'm not one so don't take my word as gospel, I still don't understand it well myself) their mental gender is at odds with the other two - that is, a transgender person might be a very masculine man in body, but mentally he self-perceives as female. He might also be a very femme drag queen, but unlike the drag queen who unquestionably knows he's male (in others, self-perceives as male despite appearances) the trans drag queen self-perceives as female.

Now, being shoe-horned into a role that doesn't fit causes much distress - that's why dressing men in women's clothes is sometimes done to humiliate them (captured soldiers, prisoners, etc.) Now, imagine you were forced to dress and appear as a woman for your entire life with no respite - that's how a F2M feels her entire life unless she undergoes some rather drastic changes. Imagine if you woke up one morning and your genitals had transformed into that of the opposite gender - trans people say that sort of distress continues their entire life.

The justification for transgender surgery is that this mental distress is real and on-going, and even through surgery is not perfect the result is a person who is in much, much less distress.

Why should others believe they are a different gender, when they are not?

That's a good question. There are societies where your birth gender is your destiny. There are others where, even when surgery has not been available, a man might take on the social role of a woman, or a woman the social role of a man, dress as someone in that role, act as someone in that role, work as someone in that role.... Not just in native North American tribes but there are also cases of woman in Eastern Europe taking on male social roles, including marrying a woman.

So, how your society views that question has a lot to do with the answer to your question.

For example, if I claimed that I were a different ethnicity than I am, and labeled it so on a census, than I would be lying, no matter how much i believed it.

What do you mean by "ethnicity"?

There are ample cases - and general acceptance - that a person born in one part of the world could move to another, adopt a new language and culture, and become a full citizen of a very different society. So someone born in Austria might move to California and not only become a citizen but also governor.

If you talking about changing race that's a bit more complicated. However, there are people who attempt to change their skin color (through bleaching or through excessive tanning), their hair color, the shape of their eyelids, the shape of their nose, and so on. That often gets mixed up with societal notions of beauty as well.

There is also the complication that almost no one is anything other than a "mutt", and the mixing is only accelerating, hence the option "multi-racial" appearing more and more often on census forms. As an example, I identify as "white" even though I know damn well there's Asian on my dad's side. My Other Half identifies as "white" even though his great-grandmother was a full-blood Cherokee and there's Chickasaw on the other side of the family so he could theorectically claim "Native American" but doesn't. Does Barak Obama write down "white" or "black"? Tiger Woods was criticized for daring to say he used to call himself "cablinasian" to self-identify his mixed heritage rather than denying everything but the African.

So if a transgender M2F as ridiculous as Michael Jackson... or no more odd than Peru having a president surnamed "Fujimori" of obvious Asian descent, but born and raised in Peru, speaking the language and fully immersed in the culture? Is it the physical form that makes someone Peruvian, or what lies between their ears? Is gender inextricably linked to the physical form, or is it more fluid than that, at least in some people?

[pucky18]

Yes, they do belong to the gender they behave as part of. The conflation of the terms sex (which is biological) and gender (which is social) is a common mistake--but make no mistake, they are different.

I was not aware of the distinction. I have been using "gender" the way "sex" should be used. I will in the future use "sex" instead of "gender."

[Broomstick]

Duchess - Just my opinion, but Pucky is coming across to me more as ignorant, naive, or uninformed than a deliberate bigot. And you're coming across as just a little hypersensitive to gender issues. I know we mock stupid people here, but ignorant =/= stupid. Honestly, it's not something most people give more than a second's though to in a decade. If he's uninformed I'd rather educate him - THEN if he still acts stupid, offensive, or bigoted we can rip him apart and put him in HOS.

[Starglider]

As far as I can tell, if you think that we should always try to 'respect' what people self-identify as and condone surgical alteration to achieve it, then you must logically accept that mocking the more extreme furries (who believe they're really a wolf or whatever) is 'evil discrimination' and that this kind of 'species-reassignment surgery' is a wonderful thing. Less radically, having your skin colour changed from caucassian to black or vice versa should be just fine, a wonderful celeberation of chosen identity over random biology.

Yet in practice a lot of people who harp on about transgender rights don't seem capable of generalising to other body modification.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Duchess - Just my opinion, but Pucky is coming across to me more as ignorant, naive, or uninformed than a deliberate bigot. And you're coming across as just a little hypersensitive to gender issues. I know we mock stupid people here, but ignorant =/= stupid. Honestly, it's not something most people give more than a second's though to in a decade. If he's uninformed I'd rather educate him - THEN if he still acts stupid, offensive, or bigoted we can rip him apart and put him in HOS.

'Tis true. Which is one of the reasons why I've decided to out myself on the board. Among plenty of others. I have hurt people before by being closeted, and I will not do so any longer.

[Molyneux]

As far as I can tell, if you think that we should always try to 'respect' what people self-identify as and condone surgical alteration to achieve it, then you must logically accept that mocking the more extreme furries (who believe they're really a wolf or whatever) is 'evil discrimination' and that this kind of 'species-reassignment surgery' is a wonderful thing. Less radically, having your skin colour changed from caucassian to black or vice versa should be just fine, a wonderful celeberation of chosen identity over random biology.

Yet in practice a lot of people who harp on about transgender rights don't seem capable of generalising to other body modification.

Hm...how about if we uphold the right of others to that kind of thing, support the idea in theory, but recognize that a) there are no major brain-wiring issues between different races, and b) the state of surgery with regards to re-making one's own body is still on the level of "chop and dye" - crude facsimiles rather than any real switch from one category to the other?

[Admiral Valdemar]

I have no qualms with people wanting to do this to themselves, since it is their body and they can do what they wish with it to their heart's content. What I do have some issues with, is when this happens but the fact is kept secret, especially when entering into a relationship with someone.

Now I'm not saying such things are wrong, since I spent last weekend with a girl who has also slept with trans-sexuals (pre- and post-op.) and I can think of stranger things society has come to accept in time. I'm just uneasy about the mis-representation of their original biology at times. Obviously, this produces a conundrum: how does one go about acting and looking like the gender and sex they feel like and yet also not send false signals to those who may want a relationship and children etc. I don't know how, and I doubt many do, though I do see many online at social networking sites tend to "out" themselves to avoid confusion.

Is that so wrong? Or is it somewhat noble to stand up and say "Yes, I was born a man/woman, but I am now a woman/man. If you don't want that in your life, please seek someone else"? Input would be appreciated, thanks.

As someone who has a catgirl fetish (NOT furry), I can accept how defying usual conventions raises eyebrows (when applied to sexual attraction), if not as much as being an actual sufferer of gender confusion and similar biologically based conditions.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I have no qualms with people wanting to do this to themselves, since it is their body and they can do what they wish with it to their heart's content. What I do have some issues with, is when this happens but the fact is kept secret, especially when entering into a relationship with someone.

Now I'm not saying such things are wrong, since I spent last weekend with a girl who has also slept with trans-sexuals (pre- and post-op.) and I can think of stranger things society has come to accept in time. I'm just uneasy about the mis-representation of their original biology at times. Obviously, this produces a conundrum: how does one go about acting and looking like the gender and sex they feel like and yet also not send false signals to those who may want a relationship and children etc. I don't know how, and I doubt many do, though I do see many online at social networking sites tend to "out" themselves to avoid confusion.

Is that so wrong? Or is it somewhat noble to stand up and say "Yes, I was born a man/woman, but I am now a woman/man. If you don't want that in your life, please seek someone else"? Input would be appreciated, thanks.

As someone who has a catgirl fetish (NOT furry), I can accept how defying usual conventions raises eyebrows (when applied to sexual attraction), if not as much as being an actual sufferer of gender confusion and similar biologically based conditions.

No, it is, in my opinion, Valdemar, the only appropriate way in which to enter a relationship.

[Broomstick]

When it comes to body modification I think there are appropriate questions to ask, among them, is there any coercion or mental illness at work in this person. And that applies to any such modification. It's why women who seek breast implants are (supposed to be) asked if they are doing it for themselves or to please someone else. There is the matter of informed consent, and the more risks there are the more you have to make sure - a tattoo of a butterfly on an easily concealed part of your ass? Who cares? Tiger stripes on your face? THAT will have a huge impact on whether or not your employed, whether or not your vulnerable to hate crimes, etc.

Because gender reassignment surgery is irreversible (essentially - I know there have been attempts) and is a huge change there is some justification for screening procedures and to have the subject live as the transitioned gender for a time before irrevocable surgery is done. This, to me, makes sense. You want to be sure that the person in question is very sure before making such major changes.

This is only more complicated by the fact that the transgendered seem to have a much higher rate of mental illness than the general population. Is that because their brain development went awry not just in the gender area but in other areas as well? Is it due to the stress of living in a role completely at odds with their inner identity? Is it due to prejudice and abuse that society either condones or simply ignores? Is it a varying mix of all of the above?

There is also the problem that, alas for the transgendered, the surgery is less than perfect. Genital surgery for the M2F produces, I have been told, an 'acceptable" result in regards to appearance and function. Bravo (although improvements I'm sure would be welcome). However, as I once heard a surgeon remark, it's much easier to cut off than to build up. Genital surgery for F2M is far less adequate in either form or function. Oh, sure, something can be stitched together to allow pissing while standing, but no natural erections (penile implants can help with that) and I have no idea regarding the cosmetic appearances of the result. In the case of M2F the penis, with it's sensitive nerve endings, is used to construct a vagina (they sort of turn it inside out) so it retains pleasurable sensation (assuming nothing goes wrong - complications can always occur). Inverting the vagina is less useful, however, as the vagina interior is really not that sensitive. Those nerves are in the clitoris, not the vagina. The result can be something that functions inadequately and is numb. So... some F2M elect to retain their birth genitalia either in hopes of future medical progress or because they'd rather have SOME sexual outlet than nothing.

Thus, I would expect it to be more common for a F2M to retain gentials at odds with the rest of his appearance. Of course, this is not unheard of F2M transexuals, either. When I worked at the clinic many, many years ago one of our drug addicts was a transwoman who still had her penis. This caused some... ah... issues... when it was time for her to give a urine sample. As she was legally and (except for the penis and scrotum) visually female we used female monitors. The problem (one of them) was that most of these monitors were missionary students from a bible college. Even worse, sometimes a newly employed monitor was not informed of the situation prior to being assigned to collect said sample. The slamming doors, screaming, and sobbing that could subsequently occur were not funny and more than a little pathetic all around. Anyhow, this person had started on hormone treatment at, if I recall, 14 or so and thus had been quite feminized prior to male puberty setting in, but due to a lack of funds simply could not afford the final surgery. So she had lived as a woman with a penis for, oh, well over a decade. Not to mention her heroin addiction made many medical professionals reluctant to treat her or deal with the transgender issues - too easy to dismiss as a product of the drugs. Well, there were a LOT people at the clinic with addictions, or who were prostitutes, or convicted felons, but only "Juanita" seemed to be all three. And, truthfully, it's unlikely she will ever have that surgery for all of those reasons. Nonetheless she looked like, acted like, and behaved like a woman, that's how other people saw her, and that's how even the bible thumpers responded to her.

While I can reason through transgenderism on an intellectual level I'll confess I'm still baffled on a emotional level. But then, I have never for a moment doubted I am female both inside and out. On the other hand, the very few people I have known to be transgendered in real life have been, prior to their transformation, some of the most miserable people I have ever encountered. The fact their pain is mental in no way makes it unreal. It seems there are really only two choices to end the misery (other than suicide, which I do find unacceptable) - either change their minds, or change their bodies. We can't do the former, so we are left with the latter.

It is, at best, an imperfect solution. If a transperson does not wish to take advantage of every possible surgery I can't criticize that person - it is their choice. To be honest, it's not always a successful solution - post-op transpeople also have a higher suicide rate than the general population. But, if it genuinely CAN alleviate suffering in someone then I can't, in good conscience, deny them that option and the chance of greater happiness in life. Until we can come up with something better it seems the kindest thing to do, to allow them to choose that course.

The bottom line is that I do not have to understand my neighbor to support their right to make choices and live life in the manner that gives them the greatest chance at happiness.

[Solauren]

Born with female organs, gender issues, cosmetic sex change (did he also have male organs? I've heard of that, but the article doesn't explicity say either way), and now pregnant.

I'm sure from a global perspective, this is news.
To me, this is 'Cool, and?'

Guy with the organs is carrying a baby. Good. Why is everyone getting worked up over it?

[Oskuro]

I was referring to some random internet guy posting that comment in the news site. According to him, the whole transgender pregnancy was wrong because you have to choose a gender and stick with it, and can't change your mind.

Why?

Is there any social value in such a requirement as that?

Please note that on the OP I refer to that poster as a moron.


As for the issue at hand..... rant mode on

I think the issue runs deeper than just gender roles. In my opinion, people have a tendency to factionalize life, to create "sides", probably due to our social/competitive behavior. Just take a look at the antagonism between sports teams, exclusive clubs or associations, fans, religions... People seem to naturally classify things into groups, and have a very hard time understanding when someone ignores said grouping rules.

The point this whole issue raises is that individuals have a choice, to be whatever they want, to belong to whatever group they want, or to change their mind if they like to. Of course, this mindset would make the group-based social structures crumble, and conservative bigots get scared by this seemingly chaotic perspective.

So what if someone chooses to change its gender, race or species? Why should anyone suck up and accept the cards fate has dealt, if there is a chance to change them? Do we accept illness? Do we accept injury? Don't we tamper with our bodies to correct defects that make our life hard? Don't we use tools?

I'm really sick of those who criticize things that "nature (god) did not intend", to them I say go fuck yourselves. On one hand, if we were to act solely based on what our bodies demand, we would be naked, dirty, and being chased by wilderness predators. On the other hand, if nature (or god if you like) hadn't intended for us to do these things.... WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DO THEM!

So what if a man decides to be a woman? Don't you choose the clothes you most like each morning? Don't you drive a complex non-natural machine to work? If you really can't accept that others have a right to choose who they are, please, do everyone else a favor an step out of the gene pool.

rant mode off

Of course, I agree completely with the notion that someone must know what he/she is doing before making such choices, and more importantly, these choices cannot be made in detriment of others (the whole "your freedom ends where everyone else's begins" thing), but that's another discussion.

Oh, and congrats on your outing, Marina, I'm very impressed at your courage

[Ryan Thunder]

So does he have a penis, or a vagina? If he doesn't have a vagina, how did he get pregnant? Does he simultaneously have both a penis and a vagina? How can someone be called a "man" if they don't have male genitalia?

If your balls and dick were bitten off and eaten by a wild boar, would you not be a man anymore?

Presumably you would still be a man because you were born a male.

So this man is in fact female, even though she's evidently gone to great lengths to appear to be male externally.

You may think that's a bit old fashioned of me to think that way, but that's how I see it.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with how I treat them as human beings...

[Mayabird]

So Ryan, what about people who are born intersexed? And what about people with chromosomal anomalies that appear to be one gender but the chromosomes say otherwise?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Presumably you would still be a man because you were born a male.

So this man is in fact female, even though she's evidently gone to great lengths to appear to be male externally.

You may think that's a bit old fashioned of me to think that way, but that's how I see it.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with how I treat them as human beings...

You're simply a complete idiot, ad your sanctimonious last sentence ignores how offensive your opinions are. There is no mandatory connection between manhood, or femininity, and one's chromosomal pairing, are we clear on that? You may very well have two X chromosomes yourself. Birth sex is based on a series of physical cues which may very well inadequately indicate mental structure, and your oblivious refusal to acknowledge that can immediately tell a person a lot about you.

[Darth Raptor]

Yet in practice a lot of people who harp on about transgender rights don't seem capable of generalising to other body modification.

I don't, but I'm a fairly extreme transhumanist. And I always laugh at the tired old "you want to make everyone look the same!" argument against radical biomancy and full body prosthetics. There would be for serious lizard people, FFS!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Yet in practice a lot of people who harp on about transgender rights don't seem capable of generalising to other body modification.

I don't, but I'm a fairly extreme transhumanist. And I always laugh at the tired old "you want to make everyone look the same!" argument against radical biomancy and full body prosthetics. There would be for serious lizard people, FFS!

One of my old roommates wanted to have such extensive modification.

I do, however, think that it could be possible to make a distinction between disorders caused by mental anatomical structure, and those caused by mental health issues.

[Gil Hamilton]

To pucky and Ryan:

I would say, biologically speaking, chromosomes themselves don't play much into. There actually exists a genetic disorder where someone who is genetically male doesn't get the initial burst of testosterone that causes male organs to express and as such are phenotypically girls right up until they hit puberty, where they get the second big burst of male hormone and viola, the female becomes a completely fully function male.

Really, if we were going to speak to biology, with hormone therapy, "gender" starts to become a highly ambiguous thing. After all, men can grow fully functional breasts with the right amount of estrogen and they don't even have to do go to a doctor for this to happen. For example, if a man lets a baby suckle on their nipple for a period of time, their bodies NATURALLY start kicking in the estrogen production. Remember, men and women are the same species, after all and medically, "gender" can be somewhat flexible, to say the least.

So being a sanctimonious git and going "Well, they were born genetically male so they ARE male" doesn't come CLOSE to telling the story biologically, let alone psychologically. It's a hell of alot more complicated than that, regardless about how anyone might feel about it based on their own prejudices. If you guys got your asses pumped full of estrogen, I ASSURE you that you'll start feeling like a lady. Probably will have to go bra shopping too.