Doomsday lawsuit against LHC

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cosmicalstorm
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Doomsday lawsuit against LHC

Post by cosmicalstorm »

This just makes my head hurt, what exactly is a "nuclear safety officer" ?
The builders of the world's biggest particle collider are being sued in federal court over fears that the experiment might create globe-gobbling black holes or never-before-seen strains of matter that would destroy the planet.

Representatives at Fermilab in Illinois and at Europe's CERN laboratory, two of the defendants in the case, say there's no chance that the Large Hadron Collider would cause such cosmic catastrophes. Nevertheless, they're bracing to defend themselves in the courtroom as well as the court of public opinion.

The Large Hadron Collider, or LHC, is due for startup later this year at CERN's headquarters on the French-Swiss border. It's expected to tackle some of the deepest questions in science: Is the foundation of modern physics right or wrong? What existed during the very first moment of the universe's existence? Why do some particles have mass while others don't? What is the nature of dark matter? Are there extra dimensions of space out there that we haven't yet detected?

Some folks outside the scientific mainstream have asked darker questions as well: Could the collider create mini-black holes that last long enough and get big enough to turn into a matter-sucking maelstrom? Could exotic particles known as magnetic monopoles throw atomic nuclei out of whack? Could quarks recombine into "strangelets" that would turn the whole Earth into one big lump of exotic matter?

Former nuclear safety officer Walter Wagner has been raising such questions for years - first about an earlier-generation "big bang machine" known as the Relativistic Heavy-Ion Collider, and more recently about the LHC.

Last Friday, Wagner and another critic of the LHC's safety measures, Luis Sancho, filed a lawsuit in Hawaii's U.S. District Court. The suit calls on the U.S. Department of Energy, Fermilab, the National Science Foundation and CERN to ease up on their LHC preparations for several months while the collider's safety was reassessed.

"We're going to need a minimum of four months to review whatever they're putting out," Wagner told me on Monday. The suit seeks a temporary restraining order that would put the LHC on hold, pending the release and review of an updated CERN safety assessment. It also calls on the U.S. government to do a full environmental review addressing the LHC project, including the debate over the doomsday scenario.


On Monday, District Judge Helen Gillmor assigned the case to a magistrate judge, Kevin S.C. Chang, for an initial conference on June 16. Wagner said he planned to ask for a more immediate hearing on the request for a restraining order - that is, once he has served the federal government with the court papers.

The case is currently being handled by the U.S. attorney's office in Hawaii, where Wagner and Sancho both live,`but that may not necessarily be where the legal proceedings end up. The Justice Department's Environmental and Natural Resources Division, based in Washington, is also being brought in on the case, assistant U.S. attorney Derrick Watson told me in an e-mail Wednesday.

In Washington, Justice Department spokesman Andrew Ames noted that the court papers had not yet been received. "We don't have any comment," he told me Thursday. "We'll comment in court when it's appropriate."

Debating doomsday
The defense attorneys would likely dwell on the regulatory and procedural questions rather than the worries over a cosmic catastrophe. Those worries have been around for years, and most physicists have scoffed at them for almost as long. The doomsday scenarios raised by Sancho and Wagner include:

* Runaway black holes: Some physicists say the LHC could create microscopic black holes that would hang around for just a tiny fraction of a second and then decay. Sancho and Wagner worry that millions of black holes might somehow persist and coalesce into a compact gravitational mass that would draw in other matter and grow bigger. That's pure science fiction, said Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York. "These black holes don't live very long, and they have microscopic energy, and so they are harmless," he told me.

* Strangelets: Smashing protons together at high enough energies could create new combinations of quarks, the particles that protons are made of. Sancho and Wagner worry that a nasty combination known as a stable, negatively charged strangelet could theoretically turn everything it touches into strangelets as well. Kaku compared this to the ancient myth of the Midas touch. "We see no evidence of this bizarre theory," he said. "Once in a while, we trot it out to scare the pants off people. But it's not serious."

* Magnetic monopoles: One theory suggests that high-energy particle collisions might give rise to massive particles that have only one magnetic pole - only north, or only south, but not the north-south magnetism that dominates nature. Sancho and Wagner worry that such particles could be created in the LHC and start a runaway reaction that converts atoms into other forms of matter. But physicists have seen no evidence of such reactions, which should have occurred already as the result of more energetic cosmic-ray collisions in Earth's upper atmosphere.


The cosmic-ray argument has been applied to the black-hole and strangelet scenarios as well. If such dangerous things can be created, why haven't they already eaten up Earth, along with other planets, stars or whole galaxies in the billions of years since the universe arose? To answer that question, Sancho and Wagner pose a counterargument: Perhaps cosmic-ray collisions really are creating tiny black holes or strangelets, but those little bits of doomsday zip by too fast to cause any trouble. In the LHC, they say, the bad stuff could hang around long enough to be captured by Earth's gravity and set off a catastrophe.

In response, particle physicists are developing counter-counterarguments - based on their theoretical work as well as data from astronomical observations and experiments at the Relativistic Heavy-Ion Collider. For instance, the physicists would say that enough of the doomsday particles still should have been captured by neutron stars or cosmic gas clouds to have an impact. No such impact has ever been seen. Therefore, no doomsday.

CERN spokesman James Gillies told me that a 2003 assessment of the doomsday scenarios was being updated with the new information. Release of that updated report - the one that Sancho and Wagner apparently have been waiting for - is "imminent," Gillies told me.

Questions about the doomsday scenarios may well come up at CERN on April 6, during a public open house at the LHC. Some researchers have gotten the word to be prepared to talk about microscopic black holes and strangelets if asked.

Reality check
Saying something is absolutely impossible doesn't always come easy. Some scientists find it difficult to state categorically that such-and-such a theoretical catastrophe has no chance of happening, and Fermilab spokeswoman Judy Jackson told me that the doomsayers have "cynically distorted" that natural reluctance to rule out even the most outlandish theoretical possibilities.

The doomsaying can continue as long as scientists hold out even a tiny sliver of uncertainty. Jackson cited the example of Paul Dixon, a psychology professor at the University of Hawaii at Hilo who has been saying for more than a decade that experiments at Fermilab's Tevatron accelerator are in danger of touching off an artificial supernova. Dixon is still going strong: He submitted an affidavit in support of the LHC lawsuit filed by Sancho and Wagner.

The current lawsuit could well be decided not by scientific arguments but rather by narrower regulatory issues. On that point, Jackson said that Fermilab has followed U.S. environmental regulations, just as CERN has followed European regulations. "Of course there are plenty of environmental laws and regulations, and they have all been followed to the letter," she said.

However, Jackson said CERN shouldn't be held to U.S. requirements when it comes to operating the LHC - even if the collider happens to be using magnets built by Fermilab. "Just because we built them doesn't mean we have any say over French environmental regulations," she said.

For his part, Wagner said he hoped Fermilab and the other defendants in the lawsuit would take another look at the doomsday scenarios - and speculated that a restraining order might not even be necessary. He noted that the startup schedule for the LHC has been repeatedly delayed, which would give more time for further safety assessments. (CERN's schedule currently calls for first collisions by the end of August, and the word is that the collider may not reach its full power of 14 trillion electron-volts until next year.)

Wagner suggested that cosmic-ray observations by the Pierre Auger Observatory and the yet-to-be-launched Gamma-ray Large Area Space Telescope, or GLAST, could shed new light on the debate. "The way I look at it, this should be a basis to look for more funding to find a solution to the problems we raised," he told me.

I'm pretty sure most physicists won't see it that way. They're generally anxious to spend their time and their grant money using the LHC rather than chasing down cosmic improbabilities. The doomsday lawsuit could conceivably be dismissed once it comes up for a hearing - that's basically what happened to Wagner's earlier lawsuit against the Relativistic Heavy-Ion Collider. But in the meantime, feel free to make your own arguments, counterarguments and counter-counterarguments in the comment section below.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 23924.aspx[/quote]
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Post by Rogue 9 »

:wtf: Do the people filing this suit have any idea whatsoever about what kind of mass is required to form a black hole? It's orders of magnitude more than is on this planet; the collider could not possibly make one.

Incidentally, here is a working link.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Sounds like somebody watched a certain goofy doomsday telemovie depicting this disaster and took it a bit too seriously. Can't recall the title or which cable station it aired on, but it was risible bullshit of course.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Can't these people devote their time and money to something more worthy, like say, unmitigated economic growth causing runaway climate change?

Alas, that'd be far too sensible.
Patrick Degan wrote:Sounds like somebody watched a certain goofy doomsday telemovie depicting this disaster and took it a bit too seriously. Can't recall the title or which cable station it aired on, but it was risible bullshit of course.
EDIT: There was a fun BBC docu-drama called End: Day that had five doomsday scenarios in a Groundhog Day like story with flu pandemics to tsunamis and finally this strangelet experiment. Fortunately, it was done tongue firmly in cheek for that last one and had several physicists stating the odds against such and event.
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Patrick Degan wrote:Sounds like somebody watched a certain goofy doomsday telemovie depicting this disaster and took it a bit too seriously. Can't recall the title or which cable station it aired on, but it was risible bullshit of course.
Was it the one with the guy from the Highlander TV series as the hero and the villain from Star Trek:Generations as the villain? I saw the end of that a few years back and it sucked.
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Post by dr. what »

Admiral Valdemar wrote: EDIT: There was a fun BBC docu-drama called End: Day that had five doomsday scenarios in a Groundhog Day like story with flu pandemics to tsunamis and finally this strangelet experiment. Fortunately, it was done tongue firmly in cheek for that last one and had several physicists stating the odds against such and event.
You can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1vKisefsuI
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Post by Sidewinder »

One would think a "former nuclear safety officer" would have enough understanding of physics to know how damn unlikely these doomsday scenarios are. Or did he get his Ph.D through the University of Phoenix?
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Post by The Spartan »

Sidewinder wrote:One would think a "former nuclear safety officer" would have enough understanding of physics to know how damn unlikely these doomsday scenarios are. Or did he get his Ph.D through the University of Phoenix?
Why assume he even has a Ph.D? If he did, I suspect they would have referred to him as Dr. Wagner.
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Post by Strider »

Rogue 9 wrote::wtf: Do the people filing this suit have any idea whatsoever about what kind of mass is required to form a black hole? It's orders of magnitude more than is on this planet; the collider could not possibly make one.
Actually, you can have a black hole of any size, provided r < 2GM/c^2. However, small black holes have a tendency to decay away into energy extremely quickly by Hawking radiation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_Radiation
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Post by Paolo »

Which brings us to Walter Wagner, who is of the opinion (frequently expressed on SciForums) that it's all right to figure in speculative TeV order black hole production identified by the last popular pathological science while dismissing the mitigating process of black hole evaporation as an irresponsible variable.
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Post by NoXion »

How is it that something that has so far presented absolutely no danger to the public at all can give rise to this crap? Is it simply a childish fear of the unknown?
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Okay, okay, I figured out how to explain this to them...

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Let's say this Twinkie represents the energy needed to create a black hole...
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

"Now, Gorden. Be careful when inserting the specimen. We don't want to cause a resonance cascade."

I notice, now, that END:DAY had Dr. Brian Cox in, who was the chief adviser for the movie Sunshine. He even looks a bit like Capa. I do so love the captain at the end with the reassurances. "Ladies and gentlemen, please remain seated. Ignore the other airliners flying into that chaotic vortex of oblivion to your starboard. Our inflight movie today is the Disney remake of The Black Hole..."
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

You know, considering what happened with the Supercollider, I sure hope nothing screwy happens with this lawsuit. I will be damned if the LHC gets a "stop work order" or some nonsensical political pressure.
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Post by Atlan »

Why exactly should CERN give a damn about what a US judge says about the LHC? The thing is half a world away, it's not exactly US jurisdiction. What is the penalty going to be if they fire it up anyway? Harsh words?
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I'm sure the EU will shut it down to appease the Americans. It's only a few tens of billions of euros investment.
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Post by Atlan »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I'm sure the EU will shut it down to appease the Americans. It's only a few tens of billions of euros investment.
As far as I'm concerned it should be fired up at the first day of the court case. Just to spite the morons.
And it should be done via live video feed, and with the words "Commence primary ingnition!"
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Atlan wrote: As far as I'm concerned it should be fired up at the first day of the court case. Just to spite the morons.
And it should be done via live video feed, and with the words "Commence primary ingnition!"
With an open end of the LINAC aimed at Washington, DC?
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Re: Doomsday lawsuit against LHC

Post by Spyder »

cosmicalstorm wrote:This just makes my head hurt, what exactly is a "nuclear safety officer" ?
They're being sued by Homer Simpson.
:D
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Atlan wrote:Why exactly should CERN give a damn about what a US judge says about the LHC? The thing is half a world away, it's not exactly US jurisdiction. What is the penalty going to be if they fire it up anyway? Harsh words?
The US can't do much, but they sure as hell could cut funding to groups in the US which work at the LHC. American contribution to the program is considerable.
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Re: Doomsday lawsuit against LHC

Post by Galvatron »

Spyder wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:This just makes my head hurt, what exactly is a "nuclear safety officer" ?
They're being sued by Homer Simpson.
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Post by cosmicalstorm »

Dear god what the hell is that?
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Post by CorSec »

For clarification, these aren't studies of what Homer would look like if he was a real person, its just what a cartoon like Homer would look like if he kept his toon proportions but had realistic texturing and lighting.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

That is the most disturbing image I have ever seen. I'll be taking that to the grave.
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Post by Galvatron »

Glad I could help.
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