When do you think the EU jumped the shark?

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-03-22 10:29pm

Jade Falcon wrote:RogueIce, what Han Solo trilogy are you talking about? The original Corporate sector trilogy released way back, or the one with Rebel Dawn, Paradise Snare and Hutt Gambit in it?

The latter. I've never had the chance to read the older Han Solo/Lando books, though I always hear they're good. If I see them someday I'll give them a go.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2008-03-23 12:16am

Crazedwraith wrote:
irishmick79 wrote: I think around Dark Empire and the X-Wing series the EU started to fall into a rut, and never really came out of it. It just got harder and harder to justify spending the money on the same old done-to-death story lines.
.. How can the X-Wing series considered to be 'in a rut' they focus on a completely different cast in a different storyline compared to the rest of the EU, aside from the similarities between the "Rogue Squadron" and "Wraith Squadron" Books.

Vehrec wrote: How so? I've read Wraith Squadron so many times I could probably re-write that entire sequence, so how does Fury compare?
I've always wished they'd get Allston to write more about the Wraiths, set in between 'Solo Command' and 'Rebel Dream.' "Starfighters of Adumar' was all very well and good but I still wonder about the ultimate fates of Myn Donos and Kirney Slane and all the others that were sadly absent when the Wraiths reappeared in the NJO.

The X-Wing series I think kind of established the wankery of certain characters (especially villians) and technology, planted a lot of brain bugs, and set the course for the rest of the EU. The wanking of the X-Wings annoyed the hell out of me. Even within the series (which I thought was just too long), a lot of future EU trends took root and repeated themselves - imperial warlord of the day, small band of heroes using their wit, guile and tenacity to stand against ridiculous odds, borderline insane villans, and original SW heroes emerge in the series as well.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-23 02:04am

RogueIce wrote:
Jade Falcon wrote:RogueIce, what Han Solo trilogy are you talking about? The original Corporate sector trilogy released way back, or the one with Rebel Dawn, Paradise Snare and Hutt Gambit in it?
The latter. I've never had the chance to read the older Han Solo/Lando books, though I always hear they're good. If I see them someday I'll give them a go.

They are indeed. They are what I was referring to in my post. I was going to read them again, just to get the bad taste of the current EU out of my mouth.

Jade Falcon · Post by **Jade Falcon** » 2008-03-23 09:36am

RogueIce wrote:The latter. I've never had the chance to read the older Han Solo/Lando books, though I always hear they're good. If I see them someday I'll give them a go.

Funnily enough I've never read the earlier ones either, though I thought the newer trilogy was pretty good. I've read the Lando books which were...unusual.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-24 06:32pm

irishmick79 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
irishmick79 wrote: I think around Dark Empire and the X-Wing series the EU started to fall into a rut, and never really came out of it. It just got harder and harder to justify spending the money on the same old done-to-death story lines.
.. How can the X-Wing series considered to be 'in a rut' they focus on a completely different cast in a different storyline compared to the rest of the EU, aside from the similarities between the "Rogue Squadron" and "Wraith Squadron" Books.

Vehrec wrote: How so? I've read Wraith Squadron so many times I could probably re-write that entire sequence, so how does Fury compare?
I've always wished they'd get Allston to write more about the Wraiths, set in between 'Solo Command' and 'Rebel Dream.' "Starfighters of Adumar' was all very well and good but I still wonder about the ultimate fates of Myn Donos and Kirney Slane and all the others that were sadly absent when the Wraiths reappeared in the NJO.
The X-Wing series I think kind of established the wankery of certain characters (especially villians) and technology, planted a lot of brain bugs, and set the course for the rest of the EU. The wanking of the X-Wings annoyed the hell out of me. Even within the series (which I thought was just too long), a lot of future EU trends took root and repeated themselves - imperial warlord of the day, small band of heroes using their wit, guile and tenacity to stand against ridiculous odds, borderline insane villans, and original SW heroes emerge in the series as well.

Were not the X-wing books rather late additions to the Bantam Expanded Universe? How would they then set the course for it? Or are you referring to later Del Rey creations as well?

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2008-03-24 10:34pm

Darth Hoth wrote:
irishmick79 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote: .. How can the X-Wing series considered to be 'in a rut' they focus on a completely different cast in a different storyline compared to the rest of the EU, aside from the similarities between the "Rogue Squadron" and "Wraith Squadron" Books.
I've always wished they'd get Allston to write more about the Wraiths, set in between 'Solo Command' and 'Rebel Dream.' "Starfighters of Adumar' was all very well and good but I still wonder about the ultimate fates of Myn Donos and Kirney Slane and all the others that were sadly absent when the Wraiths reappeared in the NJO.
The X-Wing series I think kind of established the wankery of certain characters (especially villians) and technology, planted a lot of brain bugs, and set the course for the rest of the EU. The wanking of the X-Wings annoyed the hell out of me. Even within the series (which I thought was just too long), a lot of future EU trends took root and repeated themselves - imperial warlord of the day, small band of heroes using their wit, guile and tenacity to stand against ridiculous odds, borderline insane villans, and original SW heroes emerge in the series as well.
Were not the X-wing books rather late additions to the Bantam Expanded Universe? How would they then set the course for it? Or are you referring to later Del Rey creations as well?

Were they? I remember them being fairly early compared to a lot of the EU, but I could be wrong.

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-03-25 12:39pm

I definitely think that it was the NJO for me. Thankfully I had a friend to relate the events of the NJO to me rather than reading it myself, but when she said said at one point that Exar Kun was running around as a villain I just thought "what the flying fuck?! Exar Kun was a glorified whiny little bitch the first time. Who the hell thought he wouldn't be lame ass another time around?". Later when I read about the Yuuzhan Vong stuff, Karen Traviss' giant fit, the Legacy comics that are the original trilogy with different names, it only cemented my opinion of the current EU.

Since then I've only bought books/games I know I'll like (so far it's only been the cross-sections/inside the worlds books, and the KotOR games).

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-25 03:46pm

I suppose when you say "Exar Kun", you mean, in fact, Kyp Durron?

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-25 03:49pm

irishmick79 wrote:Were they? I remember them being fairly early compared to a lot of the EU, but I could be wrong.

Your pardon; the original Rogue Squadron book was indeed published back in 1996. For some reason, I thought it was 1998. I must be getting old...

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-03-25 04:14pm

Darth Hoth wrote:I suppose when you say "Exar Kun", you mean, in fact, Kyp Durron?

Or "Emo" Qel Droma, or Nomi Sunrider, or someone else who had no good reason to reapear after the Sith War comics destroyed their personalities (and for some reason changed the ToTJ style from "ramshackle patchwork looking tech with vaguley wild west feeling fashion/story" to "lol it's ancient so it's like egyptian")

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-25 04:38pm

Ohma wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:I suppose when you say "Exar Kun", you mean, in fact, Kyp Durron?
Or "Emo" Qel Droma, or Nomi Sunrider, or someone else who had no good reason to reapear after the Sith War comics destroyed their personalities (and for some reason changed the ToTJ style from "ramshackle patchwork looking tech with vaguley wild west feeling fashion/story" to "lol it's ancient so it's like egyptian")

Well, it was KJA who wrote it... that is sort of sad, though; Dark Lords of the Sith was one of my favourites...

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-03-25 05:12pm

Darth Hoth wrote: Well, it was KJA who wrote it... that is sort of sad, though; Dark Lords of the Sith was one of my favourites...

Don't get me wrong, I still like the TotJ stuff, but rereading it I'm able to see a lot of annoying discrepancies. (if nothing else, it's good to read a story where mandalorians aren't threats because they're "TEH SUPER AWSOME AND ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE GALAXY!", but because they're ruthless pirate mercs with some respectable firepower, who don't let little things like "honor", or mando rules of engagement, or direct orders from a superior, get in the way of killing their opponent and taking their stuff)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2008-03-25 08:28pm

Ohma wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:I suppose when you say "Exar Kun", you mean, in fact, Kyp Durron?
Or "Emo" Qel Droma, or Nomi Sunrider, or someone else who had no good reason to reapear after the Sith War comics destroyed their personalities (and for some reason changed the ToTJ style from "ramshackle patchwork looking tech with vaguley wild west feeling fashion/story" to "lol it's ancient so it's like egyptian")

That's because KJA got a hold of it all from Tom Vietch.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-26 07:08am

Ohma wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote: Well, it was KJA who wrote it... that is sort of sad, though; Dark Lords of the Sith was one of my favourites...
Don't get me wrong, I still like the TotJ stuff, but rereading it I'm able to see a lot of annoying discrepancies. (if nothing else, it's good to read a story where mandalorians aren't threats because they're "TEH SUPER AWSOME AND ALL THAT IS GOOD IN THE GALAXY!", but because they're ruthless pirate mercs with some respectable firepower, who don't let little things like "honor", or mando rules of engagement, or direct orders from a superior, get in the way of killing their opponent and taking their stuff)

To be fair, Mandalore is shown to have some honour and loyalty to Warlord Qel-Droma. But of course, I agree wholeheartedly; the "Mandos" should be trigger-happy mercenaries with attitude problems and some weird conceptions of "battle honour", not Samurais in handwavium armour suits that they cannot take off or even clean (:shock:)...

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-03-26 01:05pm

Darth Hoth wrote:To be fair, Mandalore is shown to have some honour and loyalty to Warlord Qel-Droma.

Yeah, but only after being publicly humiliated by a lone, unarmed, unarmored, jedi, who Mandalore couldn't take down even while flying around in his droid.

Darth Hoth · Post by **Darth Hoth** » 2008-03-26 02:50pm

Ohma wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:To be fair, Mandalore is shown to have some honour and loyalty to Warlord Qel-Droma.
Yeah, but only after being publicly humiliated by a lone, unarmed, unarmored, jedi, who Mandalore couldn't take down even while flying around in his droid.

Run, ye Travissite Wanktards! I am a Servant of the Force, wielder of the Sith War comic! The Dark Side shall not avail ye, Legacy of the Force!

Desdinova · Post by **Desdinova** » 2008-03-27 07:02pm

irishmick79 wrote: Even within the series (which I thought was just too long), a lot of future EU trends took root and repeated themselves - imperial warlord of the day, small band of heroes using their wit, guile and tenacity to stand against ridiculous odds, borderline insane villans, and original SW heroes emerge in the series as well.

Because that definitely doesn't describe the original Star Wars movie in every way...

That being said, I've always felt that Dark Empire was what really set the trend for idiocy. To this day I generally doublethink it away when dealing with Star Wars.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-03-28 06:22am

Ohma wrote: the Legacy comics that are the original trilogy with different names, it only cemented my opinion of the current EU.

Are you high?

Please explain the logic behind your post (if there is one and it is not just a retelling of what your friend whispered to you), because the Legacy comics are most definitely not the OT with different names. Whoever said that is a complete and utter moron.

Ohma · Post by **Ohma** » 2008-03-28 01:07pm

Thanas wrote: Are you high?

Please explain the logic behind your post (if there is one and it is not just a retelling of what your friend whispered to you), because the Legacy comics are most definitely not the OT with different names. Whoever said that is a complete and utter moron.

I'll concede that that statement was not based on my own opinion after reading the comic, but on an earlier thread here which gave a brief description of the comic's plot which made it sound like a retelling of the OT. So I would certainly be open to information to the contrary of my opinion on the Legacy comics.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-03-28 02:06pm

To be fair, the first few issues, were very much just rehashed OT. Reluctant kid has to rescue princess and get her back to her father, has help from a pirate and the Force. The Jedi are almost extinct. The only thing it was missing was the big doomsday weapon to blow up.

It has gotten remarkably better though, and honestly, there are only so many things you can do with Jedi Vs Sith that hasn't already been done. It's also nice that they are trying to cover more than just Cade.

Thanas · Post by **Thanas** » 2008-03-28 02:26pm

havokeff wrote:To be fair, the first few issues, were very much just rehashed OT. Reluctant kid has to rescue princess

Which is not a rebel agent on the run, nor has she been captured by the evil empire.....

and get her back to her father,

Who is in fact the Emperor.....

has help from a pirate

Eh? I thought Cale was the pirate. Are you referring to Blue or that demolition expert?

and the Force.

while being a force user himself and quite open to the dark side too....

The Jedi are almost extinct.

Well, yes. However, it is not as if they are the only force users around, for example the Imperial Knights are very jedi-like themselves.

The only thing it was missing was the big doomsday weapon to blow up.

No, not really. First of, you do not merely have two sides, but at least four. Even in the first issues. Then, the political structure of the two sides is very much different. Also, there was no father/son conflict, no good vs evil (with the arrival of the Imps, a very grey faction); the conflict is less about training someone to be the last champion of an ancient order bent on revenge etc...

I could go on and on, but the similarities are superficial at best while the differences are staggering.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2008-03-30 02:44am

I'll third or fourth the Swarm War. Even the EU in the last days of the Yuuzhan Vong arc had its high points - Traitor, The Unifying Force, and so forth - and before that, you would get some stretches of crap interrupted with half-decent books.

But after the Swarm War. . . every one of the books I've read, and I've at least tried to read all of them, has simply been poorer quality than anything since the end of the Yuuzhan Vong arc. Karen Traviss, of course, has been doing everything in her power to accelerate that downslide, but who knows? Maybe they'll continue to drag out the characters even after Jacen finishes being Anakin II.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2008-03-30 04:46pm

Yeah, LFL is apparantly planning something post-LOTF. Be forewarned.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-03-30 05:41pm

VT-16 wrote:Yeah, LFL is apparantly planning something post-LOTF. Be forewarned.

Oh my... the agony will never end....

Dark Flame · Post by **Dark Flame** » 2008-03-30 10:35pm

I actually thought Betrayal was an almost-decent book. I had a much easier time getting through that then I am with Bloodlines. I want to know how the story goes, but I hate that damn book and I'm on page 205 right now.