A 'Man' about to give birth

[Broomstick]

Even when there is overlap between mental illness and physical disorders physical interventions may be justified. It's a bit of a minefield, but life isn't always neat and tidy and sometimes you do have find the best compromise for a particular situation.

[Darth Raptor]

In an ideal civilization, with technology sufficiently advanced, matured and widespread, radical body modification would be a trifling affair. Wanting to change things about your body isn't necessarily crazy. I'd like to be shorter and more slender. Other people would find it awesome to have a tail, or feathers, or claws or whatever. It's not just something for the mentally ill or those who are extremely dissatisfied with their current bodies; but they're the only people who can justify the risks and the cost under the current state of things.

I would never spend the small fortune it would take to get the kind of extreme bone surgery it would take to have the changes I'd like done. Assuming it's even possible at all. But if I could go to a boutique one afternoon and have it done at little or no cost, I'd do it without hesitation. Body modification isn't just for those with deformities. I'm sure *everyone* has things, however minor, they'd change, things they only endure because it's not feasible/too expensive to have them fixed.

[Ryan Thunder]

So Ryan, what about people who are born intersexed? And what about people with chromosomal anomalies that appear to be one gender but the chromosomes say otherwise?

I have no idea. I'd be inclined to wonder about what caused it to happen in the first place, but really, I don't think I've ever encountered anybody like that, anyways.

You're simply a complete idiot,

Thank you, it's been a while since somebody called me that here. I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong...

There is no mandatory connection between manhood, or femininity, and one's chromosomal pairing, are we clear on that?

I'm afraid not. Please, enlighten me.

No, really.

You may very well have two X chromosomes yourself.

Now you've completely lost me. How is that supposed to work?

Birth sex is based on a series of physical cues which may very well inadequately indicate mental structure, and your oblivious refusal to acknowledge that can immediately tell a person a lot about you.

How can I 'refuse' to acknowledge something that I simply haven't heard before?

Then again, I suppose things could have changed since I last had Health class... which was about five years ago.

[Ryan Thunder]

In an ideal civilization, with technology sufficiently advanced, matured and widespread, radical body modification would be a trifling affair. Wanting to change things about your body isn't necessarily crazy. I'd like to be shorter and more slender. Other people would find it awesome to have a tail, or feathers, or claws or whatever.

Now that's just weird. But I guess they aren't hurting anybody.

Claws/stingers/'natural' weapons might be a bit of a problem, though.

[Darth Raptor]

Claws/stingers/'natural' weapons might be a bit of a problem, though.

Think of a world where cyborgs are commonplace. Now think of the kind of force a pretty standard, non-military robot limb could throw around. Claws and fangs are the last thing you should be worried about.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I have no idea. I'd be inclined to wonder about what caused it to happen in the first place, but really, I don't think I've ever encountered anybody like that, anyways.

You're talking to one, dumbfuck. My condition may be brain-based, but it's still an intersex condition.

Thank you, it's been a while since somebody called me that here. I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong... :roll:

Awh, such cuteness out of a stupid little fundie boy.

I'm afraid not. Please, enlighten me.

No, really.

One's identity as a person is controlled by their BRAIN. Because the coding for all human genes exists in all people, regardless of their chromosomal sex, it is possible for incorrect gene activation to result in a brain structure opposite of the anatomical sex, just like incorrect gene activation causes numerous other disorders. Even if the condition in question is not genetic, however, brain chemistry is developed through a series of chemical reactions during development. Any one of which can fail, as nothing is perfect (certainly not the false Christian God), and there is a statistical error rate to everything. That can result in divergent brain development. And since the brain is the seat of all aspects of our personality and reason, that, for all intents and purposes, makes us who we are, which may be very different indeed from anatomical structure.

Now you've completely lost me. How is that supposed to work?

There are two possible categories of conditions whereby an anatomical male can exist with two X chromosomes. The first is Klinefelter's, aka, XXY, where an extra x chromosome is present. This causes some enhanced femininity and deformation in some cases, and in other cases, sterility (all individuals with Klinefelter's are sterile), and probably an increased rate of transgenderism. This can only be detected by karyotyping of individuals, usually during fertility tests. The second is where testosterone issues in the womb cause the development of an XX female as a man anatomically, something that is usually only noticed when you start menstruating out of your penis around the age of 15 or so.

How can I 'refuse' to acknowledge something that I simply haven't heard before? :?

Then again, I suppose things could have changed since I last had Health class... which was about five years ago. :roll:

Because you've just done that, fuckhead. And your sarcastic "health class" reference is bullshit. Do you seriously think your little fucking high school health class is going to cover every possible sexual genetic disorder possible to make your little retarded hangups go away? Anatomical body structure is secondary to brain structure in the development of your personality.

How hard is that to understand?

[Covenant]

The sooner we define gender in terms of personality, the better. Plus, reproductive freedom should be a human right!

[Ryan Thunder]

I have no idea. I'd be inclined to wonder about what caused it to happen in the first place, but really, I don't think I've ever encountered anybody like that, anyways.

You're talking to one, dumbfuck. My condition may be brain-based, but it's still an intersex condition.

Well there's a first for everything. Then again, would you consider homosexuals in that category? I've had plenty of homosexual friends.

And what am I supposed to do, anyways? Divine your sexual orientation from your posting style?

I'm afraid not. Please, enlighten me.

No, really.

One's identity as a person is controlled by their BRAIN. Because the coding for all human genes exists in all people, regardless of their chromosomal sex, it is possible for incorrect gene activation to result in a brain structure opposite of the anatomical sex, just like incorrect gene activation causes numerous other disorders. Even if the condition in question is not genetic, however, brain chemistry is developed through a series of chemical reactions during development. Any one of which can fail, as nothing is perfect (certainly not the false Christian God), and there is a statistical error rate to everything. That can result in divergent brain development. And since the brain is the seat of all aspects of our personality and reason, that, for all intents and purposes, makes us who we are, which may be very different indeed from anatomical structure.

Ah, I see. Yeah, that makes sense.

Your obvious attempt to piss me off has failed utterly, by the way.

There are two possible categories of conditions whereby an anatomical male can exist with two X chromosomes. The first is Klinefelter's, aka, XXY, where an extra x chromosome is present. This causes some enhanced femininity and deformation in some cases, and in other cases, sterility (all individuals with Klinefelter's are sterile), and probably an increased rate of transgenderism. This can only be detected by karyotyping of individuals, usually during fertility tests. The second is where testosterone issues in the womb cause the development of an XX female as a man anatomically, something that is usually only noticed when you start menstruating out of your penis around the age of 15 or so.

Well, I can categorically state that I'm not the latter type.

How can I 'refuse' to acknowledge something that I simply haven't heard before?

Then again, I suppose things could have changed since I last had Health class... which was about five years ago.

Because you've just done that, fuckhead. And your sarcastic "health class" reference is bullshit. Do you seriously think your little fucking high school health class is going to cover every possible sexual genetic disorder possible to make your little retarded hangups go away? Anatomical body structure is secondary to brain structure in the development of your personality.

How hard is that to understand?

Not terribly. But I didn't read what you said before that way. I thought you were saying that our sexual anatomy just sort of developed a certain way because of how we were brought up, which didn't make much sense. I'll have to read a bit more carefully in future.

And they did cover Klinefelter's in that class, at least. And it was in elementary school, not high school. I guess you could say that was more like six years ago by now.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well there's a first for everything. Then again, would you consider homosexuals in that category? I've had plenty of homosexual friends.

And what am I supposed to do, anyways? Divine your sexual orientation from your posting style?

It came up earlier in the thread, dumbass.

P.S. it's not orientation, you stupid fuckhead. It has NOTHING to do with my sexual orientation.

And homosexuality is genetic, but is a VERY different form of condition than transexualism/intersex spectrum conditions. Again, this is about IDENTITY, not SEXUALITY. What is so hard about that for you to grasp?

Ah, I see. Yeah, that makes sense.

Your obvious attempt to piss me off has failed utterly, by the way.

Concession accepted, then.

And by the way, fuck off and die. I don't care what your reaction is. I'm just calling you a useless fucker because, one, it's true, since you are incapable of reading prior posts in this thread and hold retarded opinions in direct contradiction to previously posted evidence (read the fucking thread, in short). If you don't mind being called on that, it just shows what a dimwit you are.

Well, I can categorically state that I'm not the latter type.

Congratulations. I hope you don't have Klinefelter's, then. Or maybe I do; I don't really want you breeding.

Not terribly. But I didn't read what you said before that way.

Guess what? When posting on this message board, you're supposed to read the earlier posts in a thread before injecting your asinine "beliefs" into things.

I thought you were saying that our sexual anatomy just sort of developed a certain way because of how we were brought up, which didn't make much sense. I'll have to read a bit more carefully in future.

Ah, yes, despite the fact I never said anything remotely like that, that's how you "interpreted" it. Cute.

And they did cover Klinefelter's in that class, at least. And it was in elementary school, not high school. I guess you could say that was more like six years ago by now.

So you're, what, sixteen or seventeen? Maybe you'll start bleeding out of your penis yet.

[Ryan Thunder]

Well there's a first for everything. Then again, would you consider homosexuals in that category? I've had plenty of homosexual friends.

And what am I supposed to do, anyways? Divine your sexual orientation from your posting style?

It came up earlier in the thread, dumbass.

P.S. it's not orientation, you stupid fuckhead. It has NOTHING to do with my sexual orientation.

Very well, then. Your sexual identity?

And by the way, fuck off and die. I don't care what your reaction is. I'm just calling you a useless fucker because, one, it's true, since you are incapable of reading prior posts in this thread and hold retarded opinions in direct contradiction to previously posted evidence (read the fucking thread, in short). If you don't mind being called on that, it just shows what a dimwit you are.

Oh for fucks sake. Why should I mind being corrected? I can admit that I'm wrong.

Congratulations. I hope you don't have Klinefelter's, then. Or maybe I do; I don't really want you breeding.

Oh fuck you. You don't want me breeding because I can't be assed to read a few pages of a thread on the internets. That makes sense.

Not terribly. But I didn't read what you said before that way.

Guess what? When posting on this message board, you're supposed to read the earlier posts in a thread before injecting your asinine "beliefs" into things.

*sigh* I already admitted I was wrong. Is this not enough for you?

Ah, yes, despite the fact I never said anything remotely like that, that's how you "interpreted" it. Cute.

Go fuck yourself. That's how I read it, alright? I was wrong, and I admitted I was wrong. What the fuck do you want?

So you're, what, sixteen or seventeen? Maybe you'll start bleeding out of your penis yet.

I'm 19, dumbass. And now you'll come back with some line to the effect of "You post like you're 16" or other such bullshit.

[Ryan Thunder]

Claws/stingers/'natural' weapons might be a bit of a problem, though.

Think of a world where cyborgs are commonplace. Now think of the kind of force a pretty standard, non-military robot limb could throw around. Claws and fangs are the last thing you should be worried about.

Why would you allow people to own something like that, though?

I mean, sure, robot arms and all that fun stuff is great, but why does it have to be that powerful?

[Starglider]

I mean, sure, robot arms and all that fun stuff is great, but why does it have to be that powerful?

Because it would be immensely useful. Note that the strength of cyborg limbs for everything except gripping is strictly limited by the ability of the human frame to support them. Wholly cybernetic bodies are a different issue. In the unlikely event that this becomes an issue before seed AI renders the question irrelevant, I would expect there to be a civil rights debate about giving the police remote shutdown codes for cybernetic bodies. Eventually. Early adopters would all be ultra-rich and unlikely to use them for the kind of crimes that get media attention.

Of course if you believe that personal ownership of firearms is a good idea then neither cybernetic bodies (short of implanting your brain into a tank) nor biological close-combat weapons are likely to pose a problem to your worldview.

[Lusankya]

P.S. it's not orientation, you stupid fuckhead. It has NOTHING to do with my sexual orientation.

Very well, then. Your sexual identity?
[/quote]

What the hell makes you think that her sexual orientation has any bearing on a discussion regarding gender identity?

Duchess is a woman who unfortunatley was born with a defect that gave her the body of a man. What part of that description gives any weight to her sexuality?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Very well, then. Your sexual identity?

Go fuck your mother, you fucking cunt.

Oh fuck you. You don't want me breeding because I can't be assed to read a few pages of a thread on the internets. That makes sense. :roll:

Yes, yes it does. It proves you're so stupid that I only need a few lines of text to see it.

*sigh* I already admitted I was wrong. Is this not enough for you?

It's you who seems to think that little whiny snipe-comments like this are acceptable after you've nominally conceded, not I.

Go fuck yourself. That's how I read it, alright? I was wrong, and I admitted I was wrong. What the fuck do you want?

I don't want anything, fuckhead, certainly not from you, anyway. You seem to be trying to make an issue out of getting flamed. Guess what? On this board you get flamed. Grow up and deal with it, you fucking cunt.

I'm 19, dumbass. And now you'll come back with some line to the effect of "You post like you're 16" or other such bullshit.

I hardly need to say that.

[Broomstick]

Now you've completely lost me. How is that supposed to work?

There are two possible categories of conditions whereby an anatomical male can exist with two X chromosomes. The first is Klinefelter's, aka, XXY, where an extra x chromosome is present. This causes some enhanced femininity and deformation in some cases, and in other cases, sterility (all individuals with Klinefelter's are sterile), and probably an increased rate of transgenderism. This can only be detected by karyotyping of individuals, usually during fertility tests. The second is where testosterone issues in the womb cause the development of an XX female as a man anatomically, something that is usually only noticed when you start menstruating out of your penis around the age of 15 or so.

Actually, there is some debate about whether ALL people with Klinefelter's syndrome are sterile, or just most of them. In any case, those with the condition should not expect to father children.

The karyotype of Klinefelter's, while most commonly XXY, can also be XXXY, XXXXY, XXXXYY and so on - basically, any number of X's along with at least one Y. The most complicated variants have more additional problems, in some cases the result is a very unfortunate human being.

Probably the most famous Klinefelter person is known by the name Tula (legal name now Caroline Cossey). Tula was born with XXXY chromosomes and was declared "male" at birth, though there might have been some ambiguity (I don't know, and frankly, I wouldn't ask even if I could). In Tula's teens, the person revealed that he was in fact a she and underwent sex-reassignment surgery - probably easier to approve than usual given the abnormal chromosome arrangement. Tula later went on to a topless dance gig, professional modeling career, appeared as a "Bond Girl" in film, and posed in Playboy TWICE - which should give you a good idea of both how thoroughly feminine this individual is, as well as how effective sex-change treatments can be when started at a young age (there being more to this matter than simply genital surgery.

Also, Marina missed the third way in which an XX man can arise. It is rare, but it has happened that the SRY (sex-determining region of the Y chromosome) detaches from a Y chromosome and attaches itself to an X due to an error in cell division/reproduction. The result is a very slightly longer than usual arm on the affected X chromosome, and the effect is an X chromosome that acts as a Y. A karyotype would reveal a XX in an otherwise anatomically normal male. The frequency of occurrence is unknown. Because the key genes for male development may all be present it is even possible that such a person may - MAY - be fertile although able to sire only daughters and other XX males. As far as I know, however, the very few cases discovered so far were all identified during investigations of infertility.

Which brings up the point that for many people falling into the "intersex" chasm you wouldn't have a clue about their difference from the norm when they're walking down the street with clothes on - or even just a bikini. If you live in an urban area that odds are that YES, you DO know someone with an intersex or other not-quite-normal-gender condition - you just don't know that person has it!.

The Intersex Society of North America has a lengthy list of intersex conditions and their frequency, and estimates that 1 in 100 people born has an intersex condition or genital abnormality. Some of these are extremely minor or mild - some are extreme. But yes, the odds are that (even aside from Marina) you DO, in fact, know someone, or several people with such a condition. But you will likely never know, because there is such shame and such secrecy and such fear surrounding such things that most people will never, ever, ever say a word to those around them, and may choose to forgo all intimate relations in order to hide their secret.

And that is very sad.

[Ryan Thunder]

Actually, there is some debate about whether ALL people with Klinefelter's syndrome are sterile, or just most of them. In any case, those with the condition should not expect to father children.

The karyotype of Klinefelter's, while most commonly XXY, can also be XXXY, XXXXY, XXXXYY and so on - basically, any number of X's along with at least one Y. The most complicated variants have more additional problems, in some cases the result is a very unfortunate human being.

Probably the most famous Klinefelter person is known by the name Tula (legal name now Caroline Cossey). Tula was born with XXXY chromosomes and was declared "male" at birth, though there might have been some ambiguity (I don't know, and frankly, I wouldn't ask even if I could). In Tula's teens, the person revealed that he was in fact a she and underwent sex-reassignment surgery - probably easier to approve than usual given the abnormal chromosome arrangement. Tula later went on to a topless dance gig, professional modeling career, appeared as a "Bond Girl" in film, and posed in Playboy TWICE - which should give you a good idea of both how thoroughly feminine this individual is, as well as how effective sex-change treatments can be when started at a young age (there being more to this matter than simply genital surgery.

Also, Marina missed the third way in which an XX man can arise. It is rare, but it has happened that the SRY (sex-determining region of the Y chromosome) detaches from a Y chromosome and attaches itself to an X due to an error in cell division/reproduction. The result is a very slightly longer than usual arm on the affected X chromosome, and the effect is an X chromosome that acts as a Y. A karyotype would reveal a XX in an otherwise anatomically normal male. The frequency of occurrence is unknown. Because the key genes for male development may all be present it is even possible that such a person may - MAY - be fertile although able to sire only daughters and other XX males. As far as I know, however, the very few cases discovered so far were all identified during investigations of infertility.

Which brings up the point that for many people falling into the "intersex" chasm you wouldn't have a clue about their difference from the norm when they're walking down the street with clothes on - or even just a bikini. If you live in an urban area that odds are that YES, you DO know someone with an intersex or other not-quite-normal-gender condition - you just don't know that person has it!.

The Intersex Society of North America has a lengthy list of intersex conditions and their frequency, and estimates that 1 in 100 people born has an intersex condition or genital abnormality. Some of these are extremely minor or mild - some are extreme. But yes, the odds are that (even aside from Marina) you DO, in fact, know someone, or several people with such a condition. But you will likely never know, because there is such shame and such secrecy and such fear surrounding such things that most people will never, ever, ever say a word to those around them, and may choose to forgo all intimate relations in order to hide their secret.

And that is very sad.

Damn. We're pretty open and accepting about sexuality (gender, identity, whatever you call it) around where I live (if nowhere else, then at the high school I went to of all places), and it pains me to think that these people would be afraid or ashamed of something as difficult to change as how they were born.

[Broomstick]

They are afraid because there are people out there who feel justified in hurting them, even killing them, because they are different.

Marina was once attacked by her own mother because of her differences.

Perhaps now you can understand why she is so very, very heated about the topic.

Please use this as an opportunity to educate yourself and seek further knowledge. I am more than twice your age and I still feel I am only beginning to learn about these matters. Truth is, we all have a long way to go towards being better people.

[Ryan Thunder]

[quote="The Duchess of Zeon"]I don't want anything, fuckhead, certainly not from you, anyway. You seem to be trying to make an issue out of getting flamed. Guess what? On this board you get flamed. Grow up and deal with it, you fucking cunt.[quote]

Flame all you want. That's not the issue.

I take issue at you assuming dishonesty on my part. I did not "interpret" anything. I misread your post. No quotation marks.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Flame all you want. That's not the issue.

I take issue at you assuming dishonesty on my part. I did not "interpret" anything. I misread your post. No quotation marks.

Yet you're rather strangely completely unable to let the issue drop, eh?

[Ryan Thunder]

Flame all you want. That's not the issue.

I take issue at you assuming dishonesty on my part. I did not "interpret" anything. I misread your post. No quotation marks.

Yet you're rather strangely completely unable to let the issue drop, eh?

And what the hell is that supposed to demonstrate, eh?

Maybe I just care that you effectively called me a liar. Wouldn't you?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Flame all you want. That's not the issue.

I take issue at you assuming dishonesty on my part. I did not "interpret" anything. I misread your post. No quotation marks.

Yet you're rather strangely completely unable to let the issue drop, eh?

And what the hell is that supposed to demonstrate, eh?

Maybe I just care that you effectively called me a liar. Wouldn't you?

You're being an obsessive lunatic. You were flamed, you had the wrong argument while debating, you wisely conceded. Now learn another lesson, and go the fuck away.