[DnD] Swordsages and Spellthieves

[eyexist]

I have a Swordsage that is specializing in Desert Wind manuvers and stances. My friend is playing a Spellthief.

He believes that he has the ability to steal and use my stances and manuvers, as they give spell-like effects. I told him that they are not arcane or divine in nature, nor are they considered spell-like abilities, like warlock invocations. The Tome of Battle seems to also confirm this when it calls them supernatural abilities. He would even need to take a feat to even be able to use anything in the ToB.

It hasn't come to the point where he has attempted to "steal" any of my abilities yet, but the DM is unfamiliar with the ToB and I would like to have this settled. What do you think?

[Imperial Overlord]

Not familiar with the classes, but spell like abilities and supernatural abilities are two different classifications under the rules. They are not equivalent.

[Covenant]

Bring over the ToB. Or if you bought it digitally, bring over your laptop to show him, or print out the relevent pages. Or, better yet, ask the fucknugget to bring his copy of Complete Adventurer! I mean, come on now, this is bush league. It's right in his stupid class. By the way, I hate Spellthieves.

Last Paragraph of Steal Spell, page 16 Complete Adventurer:

This ability works only against spells. It has no effect on psionic powers or spell-like abilities (but see steal spell-like ability class feature below)

Now, if your special abilities are Spell-like abilites with the (Sp) after their name, he can steal them. If they have (Su) after their name then they are indeed supernatural, and he can't do fuckall to touch them. That's the way it goes. Supernatural abilities ARE magic in nature and go away in an antimagic field, but the rules are clear about what he can steal. Now, it's possible that your abilities are Sp or Su, I don't know, I don't have ToB. But if they say Su he can't touch them.

Until he hits 5th level, he can't steal a spell-like ability. Once he does get to 5th, he can steal it from a willing target with a touch or from an unwilling target with a sneak attack. Obviously if you don't want him to steal your mojo you could just refuse to be willing, even if your abilities were Spell-like.

However, recall the rules about metamagic. If a spellthief steals a spell that's been buffed by Metamagic, he does not benefit from that feat. A metamagic maximized magic missile is cast without the benefit of the metamagic feat, unless he has such a feat, and the appropriate spellslot to use it with. So if he does require a special feat before he can use any of the moves, it's possible he has the ability to cast it, but not the feats required to make it work, and thus it goes nowhere. It might be possible to interpert that as a precedent for him not benefitting from any feats that enable such abilities or increase their stuff. I mean, it's not like he gets weapon proficencies and so on when he steals stuff.

[eyexist]

Therein lays the problem. He can't seem to wrap his head around it even when I pointed to the text that specifically states that Manuvers and Stances are supernatural. He thinks that a stance is the equivalent to wearing an enchanted item that gives a constant effect, and manuvers as spell-like abilities. The Tome of Battle doesn't help matters much when it calls that specific chapter "Blade Magic" either:

Me: (Points to text) It says right here that these are not spells.

Him: Yet you can make your sword burst into flames, throw cone attacks, and fly? Sounds kinda like spells - which I can steal.

Me: Guess what else has cone attacks and can fly? A dragon. Can you steal those abilities? You're a SPELLthief, not Rogue from the X-Men.

Him: Those are racial traits for being a dragon. Swordsage is a class.

Me: So is Paladin. Can you steal lay on hands or smite evil? You would have to take Paladin levels. Think about it this way since you take Tai Chi: would I be able to learn everything you know about martial arts by taking a punch to the face? No. I would have to train my mind and body for years. That's essentially what a Swordsage is and does. Manuvers and stances are schools of martial arts.

Him: That's funny, because I don't ever remember my Senpai teaching me a touch attack that deals 6d6 fire damage.

Me: *Throws arms in the air* You've obviously found a new use for the "Uncanny Dodge" feat.

[Hotfoot]

He's a fucking moron and a bad powergamer*. Supernatural abilities can do magic-like things, because, get this, they're fucking supernatural. He can't steal a monk's vibrating palm technique. If he wants to get into a fucking debate about it, simply state that there are specific tags on various abilities for a god-damned reason, to prevent classes and other abilities from getting overpowered. The three classes of abilities are (Ex), (Sp), and (Su). They do NOT overlap, and divided up for a reason. He can ask any official WotC rules guru he likes, they're not going to give him a different answer.

How these abilities are granted DOES NOT MATTER. A (Su) ability is (Su) if it's given by racial abilities or class abilities. Same for (Ex) and (Sp).

I would be three seconds from killing his character and expelling him from the group were I GM and he persisted in this.

Of course, if the GM backs him, there's nothing you can do, because GM Fiat overrules any FAQ or clearly posted rule. GMs can do whatever they want. But then, so can players.





*Bad Powergamers are especially vile, as they try to warp the correct interpretations of the rules to sound wrong. Saying, "This doesn't make sense" is a common rallying cry they use, followed by using their own warped logic to construct whatever version of the rules they want to use that day. Good powergamers use the proper interpretation of the rules to gain advantages the system allows for, and generally acquiesce when the GM or other players generally agree that something is broken or against the spirit of the rules.

[eyexist]

Yeah, the GM is on the fence about it. I'm going to lend her my ToB so she can research it herself. What sucks the most is he was fully aware of the character I would make and metagamed so he could build a character that would "compliment" mine.

Good thing I'm roleplaying a spoiled bitch who doesn't like being touched. Since he's playing a chaotic evil character maybe he'll give me a reason to kill him myself

[Hotfoot]

Oh please don't tell me you're playing a mixed good and evil party...please.

Seriously though, a Bad Powergamer playing an evil character? It just doesn't stop coming, does it? Sounds like you should have a shit-ton of horror stories off this guy already.

By the way, a bit of advice. If you've got a rogue ally (or anyone with sneak attack dice and/or strength bonus higher than +2), buy a heavy pick and kill him in the middle of the night. Trust me, coup de grace will finish him off. No WAY a spellthief is going to make a DC 30+ fort save.

[Anguirus]

God, nothing's worse than a bad powergamer. I have powergaming tendencies myself but I always hold to the letter of the rules if it's even remotely relevant to the capabilities of my character.

(Of course, I am sometimes frustrated by a certain DM who is likely to nix anything from a supplement, but allows 3.0 Haste and until recently thought that spellcasters get a bonus spell of every level for each point of their primary stat bonus. )

[eyexist]

I'm roleplaying a Neutral Evil character. She has no qualms against killing, but her dad is forcing her to party with strangers to learn discipline and to think outside the box. Also, he'll cut her out of her inheritance if she doesn't.

Unfortunately he is the only rogue-like class in our group besides an npc that is tagging along, but she's befriended my friend's character so I doubt I can "coerce" her into killing him in his sleep.

*Oh, this is the first game that I've played with him (and likely last). The best game I've played so was with me and eight other friends. My roomate played a female ogre with an oedipus complex. I was a Changeling crusader with a greatsword fetish. "he" named "his" sword Phalanx but he has a lisp, so it sounded like he was calling it Phallus.

[eyexist]

An update: my DM called me and is taking my word for it, since he has a habit of manipulating the rules to his benefit. She told him that the only way she is going to allow him to steal manuvers/stances (since I'm the only character in the campaign that is using anything in the ToB) is to take the feat which will allow him to use manuvers, get a successful sneak attack and beat my level + primary skill for the manuver/stance he wants, when it is being used. For Desert Wind it is tumble and since I am specializing in the Desert Wind technique he would have to beat level 10 + a 20ish Tumble skill, if he's successful with sneak attack ( I regularly use the "Hearing the air" Stance, which gives me 30ft blindsense) .

She pretty much made it difficult to steal anything of mine, but he can give it a shot if he feels up to the task.

[Civil War Man]

My roomate played a female ogre with an oedipus complex.

This is completely off-topic, but I don't think females have oedipal complexes, at least not straight females. You're probably thinking elektra complex, which is just like an oedipus complex with the main difference being a sexual attraction to people with their father's characteristics as opposed to their mother's.

[eyexist]

My roomate played a female ogre with an oedipus complex.

This is completely off-topic, but I don't think females have oedipal complexes, at least not straight females. You're probably thinking elektra complex, which is just like an oedipus complex with the main difference being a sexual attraction to people with their father's characteristics as opposed to their mother's.

You never know. She flew into a rage and cleaved through a dwarf when she thought he was staring at her tits

[Joviwan]

They cannot be stolen without your DM houseruling it. All Maneuvers and Stances are Supernatural abilities unless otherwise stated (and otherwise stated mean they are Extraordinary abilities), neither of which can be stolen by the Spellthief. My RP group uses ToB pretty prolifically, so this has come up in conversation.

[Covenant]

There's no use arguing with him--the fact of the matter is that a Supernatural ability IS a magic ability. But he can't steal ANY magic. He can steal spells and spell-like abilities. That's what he can grab. He can't grab Extraordinary or Supernatural traits. He's just gotta suck it up.

BTW, stabbing someone for looking at your rack does not mean you have an Oedipal complex at all. In fact that makes no sense in the slightest. It just makes you an asshole. ;p Not that it's a bad thing to do as an ogre! Just saying, it doesn't fit the condition.

[eyexist]

There's no use arguing with him--the fact of the matter is that a Supernatural ability IS a magic ability. But he can't steal ANY magic. He can steal spells and spell-like abilities. That's what he can grab. He can't grab Extraordinary or Supernatural traits. He's just gotta suck it up.

BTW, stabbing someone for looking at your rack does not mean you have an Oedipal complex at all. In fact that makes no sense in the slightest. It just makes you an asshole. ;p Not that it's a bad thing to do as an ogre! Just saying, it doesn't fit the condition.

I think the joke behind my roommate's oedipal ogre was that me and the other party members didn't realise she was a female until the dwarf incident. Before that she always mentioned how beautiful her "mum" was. The blind monk in our group (whose eyes were gouged out by rabid chickens in the previous game) made a comment on how there must have been a LOT of incest in her tribe.

After spending several minutes explaining what incest was to her she pretty much agreed that they "keep it within the family". But I digress.

Our game is tonight, so we'll see how successful he is with the rules laid out by the DM.

[eyexist]

Looks like I have nothing left to fear from the little spellthief that could. We were being stalked by three winter wolves in the forest but our party wanted to make camp. I made the desicion to climb up the nearest tree and fashion a makeshift cot on the branches; passing my climb, balance and survival checks with flying colors.

My friend thought that he would either be awake when the wolves came, or would be able to wake up in time if he was asleep. He was wrong. The wolves were literally, right on top of the party before they were noticed. Another party member yelled to wake everyone up which allowed everyone a free action to make a will check to 'will' themselves awake, a reflex or balance check to get on their feet and not be caught prone, and a fortitude or concentration check to be ready for combat this round. Steve failed his will check and was killed in his sleep.

Me and the party spent the remainder of the game selling all of Steve's gear while he was in the living room playing Rock Band