Fed To Auction Another $100bn To Banks

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Admiral Valdemar
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Darth Wong wrote: The funny thing is that Beck isn't even talking about the banking collapse. He's talking about social benefit programs like Medicaid and Social Security. In other words, it's just a repeat of the bog-standard conservative refrain of the last ten years: "gut benefit programs today, so we won't have to in the future!"
I'd expect nothing less from him (remember, folks, CNN is part of the lib-uh-ral media!). He'd quite happily, along with other like minded people, kill social welfare off so as to pump that extra cash into other worthy areas of government, like the DoD and their hallowed War of Terror or just propping up Big Banking which squandered what money reserves they had on golden parachutes for inept CEOs looking after their own self-interests.

The blame lies firmly on our greedy materialistic system of wealth creation and distribution today. Not on any government aid to those who need it, which is obviously the antithesis to any true libertarian pro-corporate fucktard.
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Post by Ariphaos »

53 trillion sounds like a lot before you spread it out over twenty years on a $15-30 trillion dollar economy. This of course is assuming no corrections.

Medicare needs to be gutted and replaced with something decent, of course, and the depression is going to suck. It happens. The US and the world will recover, Americans will tighten belts and some important lessons will be learned.
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Post by Starglider »

Xeriar wrote:and some important lessons will be learned.
You were going well right up until the last point.

The best I would hope for is having some concrete examples to beat neocon idiots around the head with. They won't be neat and convincing until ten years in hindsight and even then the die-hards will be trying to respin them to deflect attention from the truth (i.e. 'the great depression of 2010 was caused by gay marriage!').
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

That debt is still the biggest debt in history for a nation with ever dwindling natural resources which not even 50 years ago was the total opposite situation.

It's clear no one has learned anything. There's a financial crisis that has the possibility to blow '29 out of the water. There is a food crisis emerging as we speak. There are energy crises that are now manifesting in the First World and on top of that, climate change is accelerating if nothing else.

Quite how we're going to wade out of one crisis like this economic clusterfuck and sail on serenely I don't know. This thing alone pretty much fucks over any plans for investing in anything that would mitigate the other problems on the horizon (the 29 new nuclear plants proposed for the US will cost near $400bn at least), which is why I see these all as part of one big problem: too many damn stupid people. And we left it all too late to figure this out.
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Post by Gerald Tarrant »

Darth Wong wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote:On the other hand, Beck does illustrate how poorly managed the whole system is, even if his other assessments are incorrect. The US has a widening and accelerating trade deficit, many banking institutions are going down the crapper and are only functioning today because of the Fed and the US is so far in the red as to be a historical first.

Whatever your views on trying to counter this problem, the scale is beyond most peoples' comprehension and no one seems to want to treat the disease, rather, just the symptoms (which we're seeing have temporary reprieve at best; exacerbate the whole thing at worst).
The funny thing is that Beck isn't even talking about the banking collapse. He's talking about social benefit programs like Medicaid and Social Security. In other words, it's just a repeat of the bog-standard conservative refrain of the last ten years: "gut benefit programs today, so we won't have to in the future!"
The problem is that in a few years Social Security benefits will be higher than the outflows. This mandates more deficit spending. There are quite a few competently run non-American government pension programs, where the funds are set aside and accrue interest like a private sector pension plan would (I believe Sweden has a large Sovereign Wealth fund, which is invested pension money). There are some useful contrasts between the two methods. A program where the money is borrowed contributes to government debt, and by extension trade deficit (gov't debt soaks up domestic capital, foreign capital has to make up the shortfall.) Additionally schemes where the money is borrowed leave government the slave of interest as opposed to it's beneficiary (see Here) Also here's an actuarial report from the CPP (accountants? trustees? not sure which) PDF HERE Link
Year Assets in Millions

2007 108,762
2008 120,134
2009 132,106
2010 144,762
2015 220,769
2020 319,547
2025 431,966
2030 553,610
2050 1,340,954
2075 3,492,202
Social Security reports look like the opposite of this. One of these methods is a sane way to run a retirement program, the other is a Ponzi scheme.

I don't expect the US government to continue worsening the Social Security situation indefinitely, among other things there's negative feedback which makes debt harder to carry. But incremental solutions now will be less drastic than solutions later. Tiny tweaks in benefits for retirees depending on wealth/income, tiny changes in contribution level, changes in retiring age, etc; if they were announced now, people could properly prepare for their eventual implementation. However if a bad debt situation forces immediate action, you may have retirees who aren't ready for the required cuts in income. The worse the situation becomes the less latitude to policy makers have.

From the Trustees websiteLink
The annual cost of Social Security benefits represented 4.3 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in 2007 and is projected to increase to 6.1 percent of GDP in 2035, and then decline to 5.8 percent of GDP by 2048 and remain at that level. The projected 75-year actuarial deficit in the combined Old-Age and Survivors and Disability Insurance (OASDI) Trust Fund is 1.70 percent of taxable payroll ($4.3 trillion in present value terms), down from 1.95 percent projected in last year's report. This decrease is due primarily to changes in projection methods. Although the combined OASDI program passes our short-range test of financial adequacy, the Disability Insurance Trust Fund does not; in addition, OASDI continues to fail our long-range test of close actuarial balance by a wide margin. Projected OASDI tax income will begin to fall short of outlays in 2017, and will be sufficient to finance only 78 percent of scheduled annual benefits in 2041, after the combined OASDI Trust Fund is projected to be exhausted.

Social Security could be brought into actuarial balance over the next 75 years in various ways, including an immediate increase of 14 percent in payroll tax revenues (from 12.4 percent to 14.1 percent) or an immediate reduction in benefits of 12 percent or some combination of the two. Ensuring that the system is solvent on a sustainable basis beyond the next 75 years would require larger changes, because an aging population and increasing longevity cause the projected current-law OASDI cash-flow deficits to be substantially larger after the 75-year projection period than they are on average during the period.

The projected actuarial deficit in the OASDI Trust Fund over the infinite future is 3.2 percent of taxable payroll (1.1 percent of GDP), or $13.6 trillion in present value terms. The system could be brought into actuarial balance over this time horizon with an immediate increase in payroll tax revenues of 26 percent (from 12.4 percent to 15.6 percent) or an immediate reduction in benefits of 20 percent, or some combination of the two.

Conclusion

The financial difficulties facing Social Security and Medicare pose enormous challenges. The sooner these challenges are addressed, the more varied and less disruptive their solutions can be. We urge the public to engage in informed discussion and policymakers to think creatively about the changing needs and preferences of working and retired Americans. A national conversation and timely political action are essential to ensure that Social Security and Medicare continue to play a critical role in the lives of all Americans.
a slight increase in the payroll SS tax by from 12 to 14.1% isn't bad, and is eminently manageable, just revert to Clinton (the first) tax levels.

There's a further addendum here that no one talks about. The trust fund is a debt. Social Security moneys have been regularly borrowed and used as general revenue. So the "trust fund" is itself a debt that needs to be made up by general taxes. Decreases in benefits (or increases in retirement age) would decrease the size of that liability. But as it is relying on the trust fund just temporarily shifts financial responsibility from the Social Security Administration to general revenue. That does as much to reduce debt as Enron's financial chicanery did to reduce debt: nothing.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Is it wrong for me to think that the best-case scenario would be a devastating crash which, while painful in the short-term, completely and undeniably destroys the credibility of the Republican Party's "deregulate and cut taxes is always good for the economy" mantra? Or, even better, the credibility of the Republican Party itself?


Actually, on further consideration, it is wrong. The best-case scenario would be to drag out a bunch of bank executives, line them up against the wall of the New York Stock Exchange, shoot them in the gut, and let them bleed out into the street. Then we promise to do that to the rest of them if they don't immediately clear out all the skeletons in their closets. Maybe it's not best for the long term but it would sure as hell make a great many people happier.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

^ For better or worse, I expect this century to see a lot of political and economic theories end in the kind of spectacular falsification you're talking about.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The Onion has a good point. This kind of economics cannot continue, not when it's essentially destroying the industries of the world.

But then the economic paradigm of growth no matter the cost is hitting a brick wall one way or another.
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Post by aerius »

KlavoHunter wrote:The stupidity and greed of some people are so disheartening that I just want to put my face in my hands and cry. Their attempts to prolong the good times for a few months more will make the ensuing depression worse and more devastating to the man on the street.
On the other hand, it's an opportunity for those who know what's really going on to make a killing while putting some of those banking execs in the poorhouse, well, not quite that bad but we can sure cost them quite a few million bucks since a lot of their wealth is in company shares. Think of it as a real life version of Trading Places.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Let's not go overboard; the big banks will come out of this. Banking is the world's second oldest profession, after all. Some of them will crash and burn, but the others will suck up their assets at fire-sale prices and come out of it looking good. Even in a seriously depressed economy, banks will be doing as well as anyone (it's not as if there are any industries which do fantastically well during recessions).

As for this particular fiasco, it's amazing to me that people are heaping most of their scorn on the banks and completely letting the rating agencies off the hook. What about these fucktards at Moody's etc whose only job was to rate investment vehicles for risk, and who gave A and AAA ratings to these shit sub-prime backed papers? Why is everyone screaming at the banks and not at these obviously worthless ratings agencies? Why is no one talking about negligence lawsuits against these fucking shitheads?
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Post by Vympel »

Let's not go overboard; the big banks will come out of this. Banking is the world's second oldest profession, after all. Some of them will crash and burn, but the others will suck up their assets at fire-sale prices and come out of it looking good. Even in a seriously depressed economy, banks will be doing as well as anyone (it's not as if there are any industries which do fantastically well during recessions).
Especially seeing how banks will end up with a slew of real property from waves of foreclosures - hey - real assets, as opposed to fictional money that exists solely as a debt, yay!
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Post by J »

Darth Wong wrote:As for this particular fiasco, it's amazing to me that people are heaping most of their scorn on the banks and completely letting the rating agencies off the hook. What about these fucktards at Moody's etc whose only job was to rate investment vehicles for risk, and who gave A and AAA ratings to these shit sub-prime backed papers? Why is everyone screaming at the banks and not at these obviously worthless ratings agencies? Why is no one talking about negligence lawsuits against these fucking shitheads?
I'd say it's because it's a lot easier to understand what the banks do and how they got us into this mess as compared to the role of the ratings agencies. Trying to explain the significance of AAA, A+, and BBB to the average person is almost certainly futile, while "banks lost all their money on bad loans and now want taxpayer bailouts" is pretty straightforward in comparison.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Vympel wrote:
Especially seeing how banks will end up with a slew of real property from waves of foreclosures - hey - real assets, as opposed to fictional money that exists solely as a debt, yay!
Thing is, what's stopping foreign entities from buying those up in the US like the Arabs have been doing with Citi? With the dollar collapsing and now this credit crunch, the misfortunes of the US can be reversed by outsiders buying up what is left at dirt cheap prices. The flip-side to the coin is that everyone else who relied on the dollar is now hurting bad with their exports. And after the proposal to buy a dock in the States from a Middle-Eastern company that was blocked by Congress, how will the masses react to other foreign nations of less repute gobbling up assets?

If you think about it, those predicaments are also likely what's fuelling the money printing spree and the US government's desperation in giving the Fed - an elite group of private bankers, remember - even more power over their economy.
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Post by SirNitram »

Personally, I let the Ratings companies slide a little bit because apparently they were being given smaller and smaller samples to check against big 'Investment Vehicles'. Y'know, to stay competittive. And also, none are being investigated for crimes.. Yet.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

The markets, in general, can only blame themselves. It's not just the banks, or the ratings agencies, but anyone who consciously took part in a game that was only ever going to end in tears. The frugal amongst us, like myself, will pay for it in the end. Buffett, by far my favourite businessman, has something to say on that.
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Post by SirNitram »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:The markets, in general, can only blame themselves. It's not just the banks, or the ratings agencies, but anyone who consciously took part in a game that was only ever going to end in tears. The frugal amongst us, like myself, will pay for it in the end. Buffett, by far my favourite businessman, has something to say on that.
Pretty much. The worst hasn't even peeked yet. For all the huge write-downs, the massive losses, and the humiliating collapses, the majority of the debt is still missing. Someone's holding the bag.. And once we find the bag, then it's gonna hurt.
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Post by cosmicalstorm »

Apparently "home rage" is the new fashion, and the banks are not pursuing criminal charges against these people. Wow.
LAS VEGAS -- Eddy Buompensiero noticed eight pairs of shoes outside the door of the modest house on Mother of Pearl Street, evidence that the former owners were still living there even though the bank had foreclosed.

Mr. Buompensiero, a gray-bearded inspector for REO Asset Services-1st Realty Group, rang the bell. When no one answered, he taped a letter to the door offering the occupants $1,000 to move out. The catch: They won't get a cent if they trash the house before they leave.

"If it was me, I'd take the money," Mr. Buompensiero said as he drove away. Either way, they're "going to get thrown out in a couple of weeks."

The stucco subdivisions of Las Vegas are caught up in the nation's foreclosure crisis. These days, bankers and mortgage companies often find that by the time they get the keys back, embittered homeowners have stripped out appliances, punched holes in walls, dumped paint on carpets and, as a parting gift, locked their pets inside to wreak further havoc. Real-estate agents estimate that about half of foreclosed properties to be sold by mortgage companies nationwide have "substantial" damage, according to a new survey by Campbell Communications, a marketing and research firm based in Washington, D.C.

The most practical way to ensure the houses are returned in decent shape, lenders and their agents say, is to pay homeowners hundreds or even thousands of dollars to put their anger in escrow and leave quietly. A ransom? A bribe? "Yeah, somewhat," says John Carver, an agent specializing in foreclosed homes for Prudential Americana Group in Las Vegas. But "you lose a house, and then you get some financial help -- it's a good thing...It's a win-win for both parties."

No one tracks how frequently such payoffs are made. In Las Vegas, agents hired by the banks to handle foreclosed properties say the "cash for keys" approach, as it's known in the industry, is a regular part of the job. After all, formal eviction proceedings can take months and cost potentially much more than a payoff.

Analysts predict that as many as two million homeowners could enter foreclosure this year, caught by a slowing economy, falling house prices and, in many cases, adjustable mortgages with rates rising from high to higher. In Las Vegas, 1.9% of homes in the Las Vegas area were in the foreclosure process in January, almost triple the rate of a year earlier, according to First American CoreLogic Inc., a Santa Ana, Calif., real-estate and mortgage data company.

Getting Revenge

Each day, auctioneers offer 150 to 200 properties for sale in the small lobby of the Nevada Legal News -- a high-speed inventory of dreams forfeited on Lucky Boy Drive, Jackpot Circle and other Las Vegas addresses. Often in attendance is Eddie Haddad, a 36-year-old who cut his real-estate teeth buying and restoring foreclosed properties. During the boom, he tried developing a 38-story tower of lofts for the Las Vegas art set. But the project stalled, and a few weeks ago, Mr. Haddad again found himself shopping for bargains at the foreclosure auction.

"We expect them to be trashed," Mr. Haddad says of the homes he buys. He prefers to call in the sheriff when he needs to evict hold-out occupants; for him, paying cash is a "last resort."

About 95% of the auctioned properties, however, go unsold and revert to banks eager to get the properties off their books. Some owners just walk away peacefully. But agents say a significant number take what they can carry and take revenge on the rest.

"I'm one of the thousands of people in town in foreclosure so I'd like to get as much as possible for the items," said one recent Las Vegas online ad offering a double wall oven, dishwasher and built-in microwave, all of which, in most cases, legally belong to the bank. Rules vary by state and county, but in Las Vegas, banks typically own everything that is built into a foreclosed home.

"When you're losing your dream, and you're paying all this money to it...and you're hoping that it's going to go up, and you're going to make 100 grand like everybody else did, and it doesn't happen -- you know, people get upset," says Joe Kraemer, a broker with Century 21 Advantage Gold who deals in foreclosed homes.

The evidence of that discontent was all over the carpet when Mr. Carver, of Prudential Americana Group, first visited a foreclosed house on Perfect Parsley Street. It didn't look like the usual waste from an abandoned dog or cat. "I would say 'ferret' from the way it's all along the baseboard, the way an animal would scurry," he said recently, leafing through photos of his most-memorable vandalized properties.

The original owner bought the house new in 2003 for $131,000. A year ago, Mr. Carver says, it could have fetched a quarter of a million. But the market fell fast and the owner, for unknown reasons, fell delinquent. The bank hired Mr. Carver and Leslie Carver, his wife and business partner, to list it, but chose not to refurbish before selling. The house sold for $170,000 in November, ferret scat included.

Crowbar Damage

Cruising the wreckage of the Las Vegas property market every day in his silver Cadillac Escalade, the 38-year-old Mr. Carver has developed a connoisseur's eye for pointless destruction. Vandals who break into empty houses often smash windows and paint graffiti on the walls, he says. But it takes an enraged, delinquent mortgagor to indulge in a frenzy of destruction, such as the one that took place recently in a three-bedroom, 1,949-square-foot house in a residential and industrial area northeast of the casinos on the Strip.

Light switches, outlet covers and thermostats were smashed. There was what looked to be crowbar damage along the staircase. A large pool of paint had hardened on the living-room carpet. It appeared that someone had dripped motor oil in a trail that wound its way through every carpeted room. The appliances were gone, as were most light fixtures. A cabinet door had been removed and left soaking in a full tub of water. Not a wall was left without a hole the diameter of a closet rod, including the pink child's room once carefully decorated with a floral wallpaper stripe. It's damage that Mr. Carver described as "a vengeance-type thing."

"Some people have issues, and need to do what they have to do, I guess," he said.

The former owners, who couldn't be located, paid $261,892 for the house when it was new in March 2006, borrowing $209,513 in their first mortgage, according to public records. Now it's listed for $149,000 -- as is.

Banks rarely pursue charges against destructive homeowners; it's not worth the cost and trouble. Instead, they try to prevent home rage by giving agents such as Mr. Carver blanket authorization to offer at least $300 to occupants to get them to leave peacefully.

Late last month, Mr. Carver left a letter on the door of a house with a red-tiled roof in Henderson, abutting Las Vegas. "I may be able to offer you cash to vacate the property," the note said.

The owner, a 43-year-old man with two children who spoke on the condition that his name not be used, says he bought the property in 1993 for $140,000. Three years ago, he says he had the house appraised for $440,000 and took out a $207,000 home-equity loan to pay off credit-card bills and buy his wife a new van. His initial payments were an affordable $1,800 a month.

He fell behind, however, after he went through a divorce and his landscaping business faltered, just as his interest rate was rising. The man worked out a payment plan with the bank and borrowed heavily from his father, but, including penalties, his monthly payments rose to $4,000, he says. After two months, he says, he ran out of money, and the bank foreclosed.

He called Mr. Carver after receiving the cash-for-keys note, but was left cold by the bank's initial $500 offer to leave the house soon, intact and broom-swept. "If I stay here it will cost them a lot more money," both men remember the former owner saying.

The man says he was just pointing out that eviction is expensive for the bank and says he had no intention of damaging the house. But he had "pushed the right buttons" for Mr. Carver. "He didn't actually come out and threaten the property in any way," Mr. Carver says. "But I assumed that he probably wouldn't be too happy if he got evicted and locked out."

Mr. Carver consulted with the bank and upped the offer to $2,800.

"Better than nothing," the owner responded.

Last week, Mr. Carver went to the house, found it clean and whole, and handed the man a check. "Everybody walks away somewhat happy," Mr. Carver said. "I guess."


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Post by Uraniun235 »

Three years ago, he says he had the house appraised for $440,000 and took out a $207,000 home-equity loan to pay off credit-card bills and buy his wife a new van.
$207K for fucking credit-card bills and a new van?!
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Yeah. Not only are the banks dumb for allowing this madness, but the people who take them up on such insane offers are worthy of an arse raping.

There is one upside to this. I've hardly seen a Ocean Finance or similar loan ad on TV in months. I remember even Cartoon Network had fucking loan ads on nearly every commercial break. Go bankrupt, you tossers!
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Post by aerius »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:There is one upside to this. I've hardly seen a Ocean Finance or similar loan ad on TV in months. I remember even Cartoon Network had fucking loan ads on nearly every commercial break. Go bankrupt, you tossers!
Maybe my bank will stop sending me creditcard and line of credit offers every 2-3 weeks, it's such a waste of paper.
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Post by Shinova »

If so much of the global economy is built and fake and imagined money and currency, why can't we just fix the system even more so that all these problems go away and people just live on like usual. :lol:


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Post by MKSheppard »

J wrote:This is why I've slapped put options on quite a few US banks.
I hope the puts fail, and leave you several thousand in the hole. I also find it hilarious that someone whose idea of "safety" is a Pillowcase full of cash is dickwaving (metaphorically) about how much money they're making (or will make).
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I have to side with Shep and Mike from another thread - there's a lot to say about the issues constructively and theoretically, but the figurative dickwaving has gotten downright tasteless.
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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

Wow, more boasting from Aerius and J about how they're going to make a shitload of money off other peoples' misery! It must be one of the seven days of the week!

It's funny how The Daily Show lambasted certain people on FOXNews for doing exactly the same thing, saying that it's tasteless in the extreme, but these two can't seem to figure out why anyone has a problem with it.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

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"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

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Illuminatus Primus
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Look, its only tasteless and worthy of denouncement if its guys voting to keep us in Iraq to make money off occupation contracts. If you got the peer support, than its right? Right?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
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