Affirmative Action

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 02:32am

Clone Sergeant wrote:Affirmative action unfortunately is racist, but you have to understand that it is really meant to counteract the fact that a majority of the African American population is poor. The schools they attend are of very. very poor quality.

Good point. However, the solution is to improve public education, not to lower academic admission standards in university. A poorly educated person from a neighbourhood with bad schools will not do well if he or she is admitted anyway, so what's the point? What should we do, lower academic standards so they can be not only admitted, but pushed through the system, thus degrading the value of the resulting degree?

It comes down to, affirmative action has to stay until the education system on both sides is equal. It sucks, it racist, but that's the price you pay for 200 plus years of slavery, sub-human treatment and institutionalized racism.

It doesn't help. A kid from a lousy school will simply get his ass kicked in first-year uni by the kids from the better schools anyway. You're not going to undo 13 years of substandard education in eight months.

I assure there are colleges that need it. That would otherwise have almost no black students. And what do you think that does for the black neighborhoods in their area. Fix the schools and give black students an equal chance from the start, and then you can say that affirmative action is unfair.

Actually, I think affirmative action allows people to continue neglecting the public school situation by slapping a band-aid fix on the problem.

And as for destroying the "'black culture' that keep blacks from performing in society", that "black culture" is all that kept black people from succumbing to the despair of living in a society where everything about you was considered unclean and inferior. The culture isn't the problem, it's the system that perpetuates their poverty.

I don't understand how a culture which preaches that you should despise, resent, and hold yourself apart from the "system" can be productive or helpful in any way. Please elaborate.

BTW, I'm black and I know that I'm extremely lucky to be in college because so many other black men my age are either on the streets in gangs, packing the prisons, or just plain dead.

I'm glad to hear you haven't fallen into that pit, but I doubt that most of the street gang members or convicts you speak of would have turned out any different due to affirmative action in university admissions criteria. How many of them even finish high school or apply to university in the first place?

Post by **Edi** » 2003-01-21 02:47am

Mike's comments on the job hiring issue were right on the mark and something I hadn't considered, but in the case of institutions of learning, be it colleges or universities or whatever, AA as it currently stands should be scrapped. All those efforts would be better served improving basic education and giving grants to gifted students who just lack the finances to get the sort of education that would allow them to go as far as their potential allows. Thing is, there should be evidence beforehand that such poor people (completely regardless of race) deserve a hand up.

Edi

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-01-21 02:57am

Darth Wong wrote:Unfortunately, my outspoken advocacy of atheism and ass-fucking would probably not go over well with the voters.

LMAO. That's going in my sig.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-21 01:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:
The Dark wrote:Wow...for once I agree with Lord Wong completely.
It's a sign of the apocalypse!!!!!!

Well, considering it's been around 30 Farenheit here in South-Central Florida, and 17 F in North Florida, I'd say we can declare that Hell has frozen over.

The main thing to do is to improve the public schools. School voucher programs are not a solution; they remove funding from the schools that need it most. I have seen this occur in Florida already with Mollie Rae Elementary, which has lost far too much funding and is desperately trying to improve its ability to educate with less money than it had before. Public school funding should be the number one priority, as that will improve many other areas of the nation in the long run. Those with higher education are less likely to commit violent crime (white-collar goes up due to the fact that very few poorly-educated people get into white-collar jobs). The number of scientists and other people who can improve standard of living will increase as well, allowing America to get back on its feet economically. Education is the single most important portion of a society beyond the basic farming and other necessities.

Clone Sergeant · Post by **Clone Sergeant** » 2003-01-21 02:57pm

Darth Wong, I was trying to show you guys the opinion that many black people have. Personally, I think affirmative action is a quick patch to a much larger problem that requires much more drastic action. The schools are the heart of the problem. They need to heavily reform them and increase their funding. If the schools had more money and used it correctly, a lot of the major problems would be lessened or disappear. But the problem is the the black communities aren't the ones with the majority of the money. Because of the fact that schools are bad. It's a big nasty cycle of poverty in America.

You are right that there is an anti-system attitude and it's one of the major problems. And I think it's used by some who are lazy but have actual opportunities. But it grows out of going to schools where you don't learn anything and the system really is a waste of time from their point of view. I know for a fact had I gone to a public school I probably would have never gone to college.

Think about it this way, Imagine you were going to a school where you have 6 classes. Half of them don't have textbooks, because school's budget came up short. Those that do, use outdated texts from the 70's that are in poor condition with missing pages and covers. Over the summer they couldn't afford to do maintinence so the school's condition is horrible. A gang breaking in and vandalizing the classrooms doesn't help. One of them even defecated on a principal's desk. Because of this, the first day of school is pushed back a week. The school year starts but after 3 and a half weeks the teachers decide to strike because they haven't been given their long promised pay raises in addition to years of retroactive pay. You are out of school for a month. You come back to find out you will not be able to get enough days of classes in so you will probably not be able to not graduate on time, killing your scholarship hopes. To make matters worse the school your attending loses it's accreditation because it does not meet the minimum requirements for number of school days. So basically, your wasting your time because your credits are worthless at most colleges. You can only hope that a college will take you based on your testing scores but the only problem is the school system is so bad your reading and math skills are at a 6th grade level. So you can't count on doing well on the standardized tests. At this point you have a choice, you can either stay in school floundering, or you can drop out and take your chances on the street where you could possibly make hundreds maybe thousands of dollars a day involved in illegal activities, like drug dealing and in all likelyhood you will not be caught because of the huge number of people just like you deciding to take their chances and because the police force is underfunded and has bad morale. Your family is poor. It's just you, your many siblings and your mother. Your father is nowhere to be seen to help contribute. Your mom works multiple jobs to provide for all of you . Your decision comes down to what must you do to survive.

This is reality, no lie. I know many good friends who have lived this and they made the choice to take their chances. I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same had I been in their position. I'm fortunate my parents sent me to a private school where I had a chance to actually learn something as opposed to sitting in class waiting for your teacher to show up only to find out they quit and a steady stream of incompetent substitutes are going to take over. The school system i described is an example of the system that is reviled in urban black culture. Because it leaves them spinning their wheels. If you had to attend school like that, wouldn't you hate it?

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2003-01-21 03:02pm

Aww fuck

Clone Sergant

That sounds horrible!!

Why don't the newspaper eat those shools and the ones responsible alive???

I remember the big public outcry here in Sweden when some shools mandated to have a cut in milk for the lunches, not 5d/week but something like 2-3d/week.

Oh btw school lunches is free here.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-21 03:49pm

Clone Sergeant, I must say I do feel for the poor kids forced to grow up in that environment. Of course, I live in "Soviet Canuckistan" as the right-wingers call it down there, and we don't have such a huge gap between "good" public schools and bad ones. Interestingly enough, we also lack the huge gap between black and white academic performance; surely not a coincidence.

I just don't think AA in university admissions will help, since it's a band-aid fix to the much larger underlying problem that you describe, and these kids won't be equipped to survive university anyway because of their poor education up to this point.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-21 05:45pm

Darth Wong wrote:Clone Sergeant, I must say I do feel for the poor kids forced to grow up in that environment. Of course, I live in "Soviet Canuckistan" as the right-wingers call it down there, and we don't have such a huge gap between "good" public schools and bad ones. Interestingly enough, we also lack the huge gap between black and white academic performance; surely not a coincidence.

I just don't think AA in university admissions will help, since it's a band-aid fix to the much larger underlying problem that you describe, and these kids won't be equipped to survive university anyway because of their poor education up to this point.

You're assuming that all the black kids admitted to a university through affirmative action will be horribly poor students. The purpose of affirmative action isn't to cater to the 0.0 GPA gang member; it's to give a leg up to the black kid who did work in high school, but might not normally make it into a specific university because there's 4 other kids who are white and are just as qualified. Without affirmative action, chances are that one of the white kids would get the admission, while the other 3 white kids and the black kid get flushed. This does nothing to help improve the ratio of blacks to whites in higher education.

Affirmative action (rightfully) asserts that more white students will apply to a given university than black students, so on a purely racial level, the chances of white people getting in are higher. Yes, it's discrimination, but does that make it intrinsically bad? There is a good reason to discriminate, just like there is a good reason to discriminate against religious organizations when handing out government funds.

Clone Sergeant · Post by **Clone Sergeant** » 2003-01-21 05:48pm

The newspapers always have stories about these problems and it's usually the same thing every year. It's just there isn't much they can do because of the lack of money in the gov't. I grew up in the United States Virgin Islands and the racial make up is actually reversed to that in the mainland. But the economic situation is the same. The black and latino population is poorer and the whites tend to be very rich. It wasn't always this way. The USVI used to be very rich tourist hot spot, but as more of the major stateside companies appeared, the poorer people got since the local businesses couldn't compete with the selection at the chains.The chains dominate business. So, basically money that could be circulating in the local economy gets send to some company on the mainland and doesn't come back since tourism is down. The white people tend to keep to themselves. They send their kids to well funded private college prep schools. I attended one of those schools since my parents knew the public system was a dead end. Despite this, I still had a lot of friends who went to the public schools. The thing is the situation is as bad or worse in the mainland. The black high schools in the area where i go to college have the same problem. As a result, I've come to believe the key is reform and increased funding.

Anyway, AA is a difficult subject because most black people will not consider eliminating it. Mainly because they feel white america "owes" them(BTW, I say "they" because I distinguish between American blacks and Caribbean blacks since most black people the Caribbean were not ruled by the american slave system. So, the history of race relations is slightly different. For example, in the VI we were ruled by the Danish and they emacipated their slaves maybe 20-30 years before their american counterparts albeit after a major slave revolt). So, in that sense they are taking things too far. It only creates more animosity. The problem isn't an easy fix. Both the black and white communities really need to roll up their sleeves to try and improve the situation. I really don't know if that will ever actually happen.

Clone Sergeant · Post by **Clone Sergeant** » 2003-01-21 05:51pm

You're assuming that all the black kids admitted to a university through affirmative action will be horribly poor students. The purpose of affirmative action isn't to cater to the 0.0 GPA gang member; it's to give a leg up to the black kid who did work in high school, but might not normally make it into a specific university because there's 5 other white kids who did just as well or better. Without affirmative action, chances are that one of the white kids would get the admission, while the other 4 and the black kid get flushed. This does nothing to help improve the ratio of blacks to whites in higher education.

Affirmative action (rightfully) asserts that more white students will apply to a given university than black students, so on a purely racial level, the chances of white people getting in are higher. Yes, it's discrimination, but does that make it intrinsically bad? There is a good reason to discriminate, just like there is a good reason to discriminate against religious organizations when handing out government funds.

Durandal, You hit the nail on the head, as they say.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-21 11:32pm

Durandal, read my post on UCBerkeley. The problem comes when quotas are used, because schools do take in the 0.0 GPA student to fulfill a quota, and don't care when s/he drops out because they're unable to keep up. In fact, San Jose State reported a drop in minority attendance when AA came in because a large number of their minority students had SJS as their second choice...behind UCB. Those students tended to succeed at SJS, yet they failed at UCB. At times AA can be counterproductive. I agree it's still something that we probably need, but it needs major reworking.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-22 12:36am

The Dark wrote:Durandal, read my post on UCBerkeley. The problem comes when quotas are used, because schools do take in the 0.0 GPA student to fulfill a quota, and don't care when s/he drops out because they're unable to keep up. In fact, San Jose State reported a drop in minority attendance when AA came in because a large number of their minority students had SJS as their second choice...behind UCB. Those students tended to succeed at SJS, yet they failed at UCB. At times AA can be counterproductive. I agree it's still something that we probably need, but it needs major reworking.

That would point to the problem being no educational middle class, rather they are either good students or extremely poor students,

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-01-22 12:58am

ArmorPierce wrote:So I see no one is going to take me up on my offer for me to act gangster.

We already had a troll who went all "gangsta" on us.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-01-22 10:09am

Affirmative Action??? The only thing I know about Affirmative Action was that it was something which forced DC to include some non-white superheroes in Superfriends.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-01-22 10:30am

Where is the cutoff? where does it stop? A university gives a help in admissions to a student with lower academic ability because it helps 'diversify' the population....that may or may not be a good thing, depending on your opinion, but how long does it continue? Does that same person get accepted into law school with qualifications that would not be acceptable if he/she was of another 'race'? Do they get bonus points so they can pass the bar exam? Does a law firm lower their standards to hire them? When they initiate litigation before the court, does the judge give them special treatment over the white lawyers?

"I have a dream, that someday our children will live in a land where they are judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their charector"

affirmative action may have had it's time, but now it is just a creaky institution. it has become a status quo that is entrenched in our society. people profit from it. Black leaders don't dare criticize it, for they would look like hypocrites. The progress we make toward better 'race' relations stalls because we do not question the status quo that is affirmative action.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-22 12:22pm

Col. Crackpot wrote:Where is the cutoff? where does it stop? A university gives a help in admissions to a student with lower academic ability because it helps 'diversify' the population....that may or may not be a good thing, depending on your opinion, but how long does it continue? Does that same person get accepted into law school with qualifications that would not be acceptable if he/she was of another 'race'? Do they get bonus points so they can pass the bar exam? Does a law firm lower their standards to hire them? When they initiate litigation before the court, does the judge give them special treatment over the white lawyers?

Slippery slope. Furthermore, it's a widely recognized genetic and social fact that diversity breeds strength. Furthermore, I'm against certain jobs acquiescing to affirmative action, and the decision being based purely on skill. Jobs like firefighters, police officers, paramedics, et cetera. Jobs where the highest possible skill level is required because lives are at stake. However, I also think that minorities should be given a break when it comes to higher education, or else the trend of a white-dominated upper class will continue. I don't think affirmative action is a permanent solution. I think that the state of diversity should be evaluated every 5 years or so, and when it's reached a good, consistent level, affirmative action should be dropped.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2003-01-22 02:59pm

Well if underqualified students are such a problem, then we should also deal with the stupid inept sons and daughters of of rich parents (hell we have one who happened to become US president). They get far far more advantages than any minority that utilizes Affirmative Action. As a Black man, I think Affirmative action makes minorities look like they are underachieveing and getting into colleges en masse, where they fail miserably, as from what Republicans and the media are presenting, when the statistics show that the Majority of minorites are not benefitting from Affirmative Action, esp in getting Jobs (I'll have to look at the stat on College admissions to be sure). They are putting AA in a very bad light. But at the same time it is causing some problems

I agree with Clone Sergeant and Durandal on this matter. Although AA I think needs some major modifications for it to work effectively. Because in the world we live in thing don't work as idealistically like how George W Bush feels.

I find it funny (and ironic) that W is working to get rid of affirmative action, when he was the biproduct of a different type of Affirmative action. For Dumd rich kids!!! He should be embracing it, It saved his goddamned pathetic life from the drug and alcoholic life he deserved.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-22 03:22pm

Clone Sergeant wrote: BTW, I'm black and I know that I'm extremely lucky to be in college because so many other black men my age are either on the streets in gangs, packing the prisons, or just plain dead.

WARNING: HYPERMATTER CONTAINMENT FAILURE
IN 10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..0

LUCKY?

Luck has absolutely fucking nothing to do with it! The reason you're in
college now is not because you got "lucky" but because you decided
that you had better things to do than to hang out with a bad crowd that
was going to end up dead eventually.

For fucks sake, some people are so obviously on suicide runs that
will inevitably end up in incarceration or in death, and people wonder
why those people are so "unlucky"......

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2003-01-22 04:32pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Clone Sergeant wrote: BTW, I'm black and I know that I'm extremely lucky to be in college because so many other black men my age are either on the streets in gangs, packing the prisons, or just plain dead.

WARNING: HYPERMATTER CONTAINMENT FAILURE
IN 10..9..8..7..6..5..4..3..2..1..0

LUCKY?

Luck has absolutely fucking nothing to do with it! The reason you're in
college now is not because you got "lucky" but because you decided
that you had better things to do than to hang out with a bad crowd that
was going to end up dead eventually.

For fucks sake, some people are so obviously on suicide runs that
will inevitably end up in incarceration or in death, and people wonder
why those people are so "unlucky"......

Your point??? Do you even know his predicament to even come to your conclusion? Jesus, I didn't know you were omnisient.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-22 04:34pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Well if underqualified students are such a problem, then we should also deal with the stupid inept sons and daughters of of rich parents (hell we have one who happened to become US president). They get far far more advantages than any minority that utilizes Affirmative Action. As a Black man, I think Affirmative action makes minorities look like they are underachieveing and getting into colleges en masse, where they fail miserably, as from what Republicans and the media are presenting, when the statistics show that the Majority of minorites are not benefitting from Affirmative Action, esp in getting Jobs (I'll have to look at the stat on College admissions to be sure). They are putting AA in a very bad light. But at the same time it is causing some problems

Agreed. Whereas I see affirmative action as an attempt to promote racial equality, a lot of white people see it as some sort of guilt-relief mechanism. They think that the more accessible they make universities and jobs to underqualified or simply unqualified minorities, the better people they are. We should be promoting diversity, because minorities are at a disadvantage, whether you want to admit it or not, but we shouldn't be giving free rides to minority students simply because they're minorities. We should be giving them a leg up because they've worked hard.

Yeah, sure, that's unfair to white students. But, remember, while the white people today aren't the ones who enslaved black people, we do enjoy the societal benefits brought about by suppressing black people for so long. I'd hardly call that fair.

I agree with Clone Sergeant and Durandal on this matter. Although AA I think needs some major modifications for it to work effectively. Because in the world we live in thing don't work as idealistically like how George W Bush feels.

I find it funny (and ironic) that W is working to get rid of affirmative action, when he was the biproduct of a different type of Affirmative action. For Dumd rich kids!!! He should be embracing it, It saved his goddamned pathetic life from the drug and alcoholic life he deserved.

I'd say that Shrub is more or less the product of a monarchial system. He's been getting his way because daddy said so since getting into Yale, and he was a fucking C student, and now he's president because he thinks that God chose him to be. Kings have a similar idea; it's called "divine right," and it runs contrary to the words "We the people," in the Constitution.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-22 04:40pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:Your point??? Do you even know his predicament to even come to your conclusion? Jesus, I didn't know you were omnisient.

Entering a life of crime in which the odds are you are going to end up dead
or in prison isn't "luck" as he claims. It is a personal fucking CHOICE
made by YOU and YOU alone, not some goddamn impersonal universe
rolling the dice to decide if you become a criminal or not.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-01-22 05:06pm

I'm going to have to agree with Shep here. You always have the freedom of choice, unless someone's holding a gun against your head.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-22 06:06pm

If someone tells me that I, as a white male, should not go to a university because there's some black kid who is less qualified, I will promptly tell that person to go fuck themselves. I don't give a goddamn what the fuck your skin color is, if you get in ahead of me you damn well better be more qualified than me.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-22 06:34pm

Agreed with Shep,

People who succeded don't get lucky unless they spill Coffie on themselves or eat somthing they should not have and sued their way to Victory

You don't get Strait-As and a Masters Degree through Luck fokes....

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-01-22 06:57pm

I agree with most of what's being said. Really, AA is discrimination against both minorities and the plurality (since there is no majority). It discriminates against white males because it forces them out of college and jobs (life is a zero-sum "game"...I can run the figures if someone wants, but it's been done by professionals before). It discriminates against minorities because it suggests that they're unable to compete on an equal footing. The current system is broken and needs to be fixed; I believe everyone here agrees about at least that much. The solution is a much more difficult thing to determine.