Fed To Auction Another $100bn To Banks

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MKSheppard
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Post by MKSheppard »

Darth Wong wrote:Wow, more boasting from Aerius and J about how they're going to make a shitload of money off other peoples' misery! It must be one of the seven days of the week!
It's all bullshit too. If they're making so much money off people's misery, then why did Aerius only recently upgrade from a Pentium II-400 to a Pentium 4 1.4 GHz.....bleeding edge for......1999?

I mean, it's not like it costs a lot to put together a reasonably priced computer, for about $700 that will give you decent performance.
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Post by Edi »

MKSheppard wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Wow, more boasting from Aerius and J about how they're going to make a shitload of money off other peoples' misery! It must be one of the seven days of the week!
It's all bullshit too. If they're making so much money off people's misery, then why did Aerius only recently upgrade from a Pentium II-400 to a Pentium 4 1.4 GHz.....bleeding edge for......1999?

I mean, it's not like it costs a lot to put together a reasonably priced computer, for about $700 that will give you decent performance.
Shep, that would actually depend on what you used it for. If you don't need high performance graphics for gaming, you can do quite a bit with equipment as ancient as his old rig or the new one and some old software won't even work on new stuff but provides superior performance in e.g. certain audio editing things unless you want to pay an arm and a leg for newer software.

Doesn't change the fact that the bragging about the money is getting fucking obnoxious on their part.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Edi wrote:Shep, that would actually depend on what you used it for.
I'm sorry, but actually supporting an older rig is time consuming; because you have to go look for specialized parts which are no longer commonly available; and even when you find something that's compatible with a ten year old motherboard, you usually have to go through a process to get it compatible with the old BIOS *cough hard drive cough*
some old software won't even work on new stuff
One word: Emulation, I can play old videogames on my new rig, which I couldn't even play on my older rig because my new rig supports much better virtualization, allowing me to run a Windows 98 box at reasonable speed.
Doesn't change the fact that the bragging about the money is getting fucking obnoxious on their part.
"Look at me, I'm making a lot of money nyah!"
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Post by Terralthra »

J wrote:Note that non-borrowed reserves are now negative by a greater amount than the total and required reserves. The banks are buried in the hole, they're all flat broke and the Federal Reserve Bank is the last and only lendor. This is why I've slapped put options on quite a few US banks.
Say, J, how does this put option thing work, anyway? Can I, say, slap a put option on Darth Wong's temper if you keep gloating about how much money you'll make from the impending reccession?
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Post by MKSheppard »

Terralthra wrote:Say, J, how does this put option thing work, anyway?
If I recall correctly, it's a process of gambling on the markets; you basically say that "I bet x amount of money that oil, corn, whatever, will be x per barrel or bushel on x."

If you bet really good, you make a lot of money. If you bet wrong, you take a bath and lose a lot of money. It was originally developed as a way to ensure that farmers would at least make a minimal amount of money on their crops each year.

Of course, it's become the famous option of Bond Villains and evil corporate types, who put out billions of put options on the US Dollar, so that when they blow up NYC, they will make $$$$$$ as the dollar tumbles.
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Post by Edi »

MKSheppard wrote:
Edi wrote:Shep, that would actually depend on what you used it for.
I'm sorry, but actually supporting an older rig is time consuming; because you have to go look for specialized parts which are no longer commonly available; and even when you find something that's compatible with a ten year old motherboard, you usually have to go through a process to get it compatible with the old BIOS *cough hard drive cough*
some old software won't even work on new stuff
One word: Emulation, I can play old videogames on my new rig, which I couldn't even play on my older rig because my new rig supports much better virtualization, allowing me to run a Windows 98 box at reasonable speed.
It's quite obvious that you entirely missed the fucking point of my last post. I don't need any reminders on how difficult supporting old equipment is since I've done it for years. But taking this thread more off topic is no going to be productive, so I'll just leave it at this.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Edi wrote:But taking this thread more off topic is no going to be productive, so I'll just leave it at this.
Okay then, check your PMs.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Leaving aside the computer issue, the irony of the whole J/Aerius "easy money" boasting is that if they are to be believed, they did it by playing the exact same game that was played by investment bankers such as Bear-Stearns: leveraging themselves in over their heads by borrowing far more money than they had, and then using the borrowed money to magnify their investment earnings (or losses, such as the case may be), at the cost of greatly increased risk. When you do this, you can potentially be wiped out at any time by a margin call, which is basically what happened to Bear-Stearns. So if they really did it as they say, they followed the Bear-Stearns recipe to the letter, but got away with it. And if that's the case, gloating over the stupid investment bankers and their idiotic risk-taking seems totally absurd.
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Post by ray245 »

Just a question, what will happen to the asian markets?

Most people here seems to be convinced that as long as china was not affected by the US recession, there might be a chance for asian markets to do rather well...
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Post by TithonusSyndrome »

ray245 wrote:Just a question, what will happen to the asian markets?

Most people here seems to be convinced that as long as china was not affected by the US recession, there might be a chance for asian markets to do rather well...
Sure, and if the Asian market figures out a way to maintain it's economy without having to rely on exports to the US, then that might be within the realm of possibility.
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Post by Sturmfalke »

ray245 wrote:Just a question, what will happen to the asian markets?

Most people here seems to be convinced that as long as china was not affected by the US recession, there might be a chance for asian markets to do rather well...
What makes you think that China will not be affected by the US recession? To me it seems certain that China will see its exports fall quite a bit when the situation in the United States gets worse.
Also, who are "most people"? What I have seen in the news are headlines like "Asian markets tumble on US worries" etc. Of course, if China wasn't affected by the US recession, the Asian markets would do rather well... but this is wishful thinking at best.
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Post by ray245 »

Sturmfalke wrote:
ray245 wrote:Just a question, what will happen to the asian markets?

Most people here seems to be convinced that as long as china was not affected by the US recession, there might be a chance for asian markets to do rather well...
What makes you think that China will not be affected by the US recession? To me it seems certain that China will see its exports fall quite a bit when the situation in the United States gets worse.
Also, who are "most people"? What I have seen in the news are headlines like "Asian markets tumble on US worries" etc. Of course, if China wasn't affected by the US recession, the Asian markets would do rather well... but this is wishful thinking at best.
Stock market analyst mostly...they keep saying that asian markets will not be that bad compared to the US and europe, and saying that as long china's economy maintain stable, we will all be ok.


The only thing that I do not get it is, HOW can china be avoid any damage cause by the US recession...
:roll:

Unless asian markets is somehow going to replace the US consumer market?

I doubt that is possible in the near term.

And damn, isn't the asian economy only starting to do well recently? If that's the case...sigh, the asian market suffered during the 97 asian finacal crisis, while the US isn't affected to a large extend.

So while asian markets has sort of learn their lessons, they must suffer together with the US.
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cosmicalstorm wrote:I didn't realize that the Medicare program was such a big problem, or is this guy full of shit?
By Glenn Beck
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Post by Darth Wong »

Glenn Beck is living testament to the fact that you don't need talent, looks, or brains to succeed as a political pundit. All you need to do is plaster an idiot smile on your face and incoherently bash the right groups while acting as if rural "common sense" actually makes sense. Ironically, this is something that probably comes more easily to a stupid person.
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Post by PainRack »

ray245 wrote: Stock market analyst mostly...they keep saying that asian markets will not be that bad compared to the US and europe, and saying that as long china's economy maintain stable, we will all be ok.
Its a tad more..... complicated than that. You see, SEA economies are no longer directly exporting to the US. Our finished goods either go to the EU, with raw mats or other goods being sent to China to feed their industries. Sure, we still produce high end manufactured goods, but the lower end manufacturing is now directly routed to China. Singapore manufacturing hasn't really benefited as we lost our softer manufacturing to Malaysia and Indonesia years ago, but the economy is tied in with the import/export business.

So, if East Asia economy has truly decoupled from the US and if the EU can pick up the slack, we won't be going straight into a deep depression but rather, a recession. That's highly unlikely though.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Financial Sense wrote:Meltdown of the Banking System?
by Dr. Chris Martenson, The End of Money | March 31, 2008
Print

Continuing the tradition of "telling it like it is" in stark contrast to US news where everything is soft pedaled and downplayed, Spiegel (one of my favorite foreign news sources) comes out with this astonishing article.

Here they do an incredible job summing up the situation.

“For some time, there has been a tacit agreement among central bankers and the financial ministers of key economies not to allow any bank large enough to jeopardize the system to go under -- no matter what the cost. But, on Sunday, the question arose whether this agreement should be formalized and made public. The central bankers decided against the idea, reasoning that it would practically be an invitation to speculators and large hedge funds to take advantage of this government guarantee.”

“Everyone involved knows how explosive the agreement is. It essentially means that while the profits of banks are privatized, society bears the cost of their losses. In a world in which the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer, that is political dynamite.”

“Nevertheless, central bankers are running out of options. They are anxious to avert the nightmare scenario of a financial crisis like the one that rocked Germany in 1931, when the failure of a major Berlin bank prompted a massive run on other banks by a nervous public, which plunged those banks into insolvency. For decades, a repetition of that disaster had seemed unthinkable. But ever since former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan dubbed the current financial crisis the worst since the end of World War II, old certainties have no longer applied.”

For those who are paying attention, this open admission that our choices are seemingly reduced to either a systemic market crash or shoveling untold amounts of money into the coffers of the wealthiest banks (and individuals) on the planet reveals just how ridiculous, and potentially explosive, this situation really is.

Let's continue. This is a telling passage and quote:

In this situation, even the most zealous disciples of the free market are calling for more government intervention.”I no longer have faith in the ability of the markets to heal themselves," Deutsche Bank CEO Josef Ackermann confessed in a speech delivered last Monday in Frankfurt.”

“Ackermann said that the American example shows that governments and central banks must now play a stronger role. Even his counterpart at Commerzbank, Klaus-Peter Müller, agreed, saying that the current situation has the potential to develop into "the biggest financial crisis in postwar history" as long as "the markets are allowed to continue operating unchecked."”

“According to Müller, "It would make sense to permit the banks -- retroactively to Jan. 1 -- to account for securities differently by eliminating the daily revaluation requirement." He argues that this would stop the downward spiral on the banks' financial statements.”

As someone who has been observing this "sudden crisis" develop over the past 4 years, I am amused by this sentiment that banks be permitted some additional leeway in how they treat record their losses so as to continue to hide their poor decisions. I am amused because I have a small child who tries the same tactic during scary movies and I find it to be a developmentally quaint ‘strategy’.

The somewhat aggravating part of all this is that the central banks have known about this problem for a long time yet chose to do absolutely nothing about it until now. Let me illustrate this in two parts, first with a quote from a Federal Reserve Governor made in 2006 which reveals that they were precisely focused on the exact cause of this crisis, and then with a graph showing what happened next.

Exhibit A:

“There are aspects of the latest changes in financial innovation that could increase systemic risk" -- the danger that the losses of a few investors could set off a chain reaction of events that disrupts the broader financial system, as did the near-collapse of a heavily leveraged hedge fund in 1998.” ~Federal Reserve governor Timothy Geithner March 1st, 2006

The "aspects of financial innovation" is banker code-speak for derivatives which are the very innovations that have now blown up and which Klaus-Peter Müller, above, is arguing should be more-or-less swept off the bank balance sheets and out of view. The "systemic risk" referred to is precisely the situation in which we now find ourselves and refers to the possibility that bank after bank will topple into each other like so many unstable dominoes until the entire banking system lies in a ruined heap.

Given the seriousness of this possibility, and given the fact that the US central bank is on record as being very concerned about this back in 2006 (and most certainly before), let's see what happened to the growth of derivatives after Mr. Geithner’s warning. Did the central banks crack down on derivatives limiting their growth? Even better, did derivatives decline?

Exhibit B:

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What we see here is that at the moment of Geithner's warning (which I took very seriously at the time) total world derivatives had a value of around $380 trillion (with a "t") and 18 months later that number had exploded to $684 trillion. So, however concerned the central banks were at the time, they were not concerned enough to prevent a near doubling of derivatives over the next year and a half. More than $300 trillion of new bets were recklessly balanced on a monetary system whose very design requires continuous compounding, or exponential, growth in the aggregate levels of debt (credit). Did nobody at the central bank notice that the US consumers at bottom of this massive inverted pyramid were running a negative savings rate during this period of explosive growth? Did they not have access to the fact that US manufacturing (that is, the actually productive portion of the economy) has been in a recession for over 10 years?

And so it is that now, in a stroke of irony, we find that it is the NY Fed itself, the very branch that Mr. Geithner heads up, which is saddled with taking on the almost $30 billion of Bear Stearn “assets” during this past rescue. I bet that sticks in his craw. However, it should also be obvious that there’s a vast gulf between $30 billion and $300 trillion - that’s 4 orders of magnitude for you math geeks and Richter scale fans - so we might reasonably assess that some risk remains that the problem has not been entirely solved.

But now all of us are going to be expected to pay for these mistakes while the already fabulously wealthy are going to be bailed out and probably made even richer in the process. Even worse, it turns out that Germany is openly discussing the risks and responses in an open manner while the US media and political leadership have opted a stance of consistently reassuring us all that is fine and under control.

As if we could simply close our eyes during the scary parts and wish it all away.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Let's be honest here: this kind of unfair bailout mentality is hardly unique to banks. Any time a corporation becomes so large that its employees and shareholders wield significant political power, it becomes virtually impossible to let it collapse, even if it is richly deserved. And it's not as if corporations are special in this regard: how many billions have we shoveled into the mouths of farmers who wanted to keep their businesses afloat despite a total lack of economic viability, all due to some bizarre fascination with a rose-coloured memory of a bucolic past?

Like it or not, governments routinely intervene to keep certain powerful industries from paying for their own mistakes and inadequacies. The counterbalancing mechanism is not to eliminate the process through which this happens (which is democracy, after all), but to have robust social programs and regressive taxation which forcibly confiscates some of these lop-sided gains in good times and puts them to good use.
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Admiral Valdemar wrote:Did nobody at the central bank notice that the US consumers at bottom of this massive inverted pyramid were running a negative savings rate during this period of explosive growth? Did they not have access to the fact that US manufacturing (that is, the actually productive portion of the economy) has been in a recession for over 10 years?
I remember making arguments very much like this a few years ago here on this board, only to be told by the various "economists" that I didn't know what I was talking about because I'm not an economist. Nope, I'm just an engineer, so I guess have an irrational fixation on industries that actually produce things.

Economists are masters of predicting economic problems after they happen, and then acting as if they saw it coming all along, even if they were right at the head of the Good News train just a year earlier.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Darth Wong wrote:Let's be honest here: this kind of unfair bailout mentality is hardly unique to banks. Any time a corporation becomes so large that its employees and shareholders wield significant political power, it becomes virtually impossible to let it collapse, even if it is richly deserved. And it's not as if corporations are special in this regard: how many billions have we shoveled into the mouths of farmers who wanted to keep their businesses afloat despite a total lack of economic viability, all due to some bizarre fascination with a rose-coloured memory of a bucolic past?

Like it or not, governments routinely intervene to keep certain powerful industries from paying for their own mistakes and inadequacies. The counterbalancing mechanism is not to eliminate the process through which this happens (which is democracy, after all), but to have robust social programs and regressive taxation which forcibly confiscates some of these lop-sided gains in good times and puts them to good use.
All very true, and a horrible fact that few want to acknowledge even if they know of it. The game is different this time though. Do we let them reap what they sowed and fall, taking with them the economy we know and love? Or do we bail them out and run the currency into the ground, risk public uproar if the propaganda fails and total loss of confidence in bankers and the government that keep them in check?

Neither choice is palatable: keep the bad guys in business, or implode the global economic system...
Darth Wong wrote: I remember making arguments very much like this a few years ago here on this board, only to be told by the various "economists" that I didn't know what I was talking about because I'm not an economist. Nope, I'm just an engineer, so I guess have an irrational fixation on industries that actually produce things.

Economists are masters of predicting economic problems after they happen, and then acting as if they saw it coming all along, even if they were right at the head of the Good News train just a year earlier.
It was making them money (so they thought) back then. They had no reason to stop, because until you hit a brick wall, your joy ride is quite a thrill. Many economists still think we can avoid a recession, which tells you how good their economic education is, or how easy they are to buy for the big corporations. A good example is predicting oil and gasoline product stock fills and draws in the US. The accuracy for whether these reserves grow or shrink is around 50% for the major groups that offer predictions. So a coin would be a better predictor, and require a smaller consultation fee.
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Post by Shinova »

I have an odd question regarding the impending financial doom.


Let's say you win the lottery and have the option of having it at once or over 26 yearly payments. With what's coming, which do you think would be the better option?
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

Shinova wrote:I have an odd question regarding the impending financial doom.


Let's say you win the lottery and have the option of having it at once or over 26 yearly payments. With what's coming, which do you think would be the better option?
If you won a tenner, I don't think you'd be bothered.

If you won a few hundred million in a multi-state or international one, then it depends on what currency you have. I really don't see the dollar being a major player any more, so I'd convert it immediately into euros or something else and pocket it. Or invest it in something that is near enough rock solid, like property or grain.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I recently (this week, in fact) was informed that I would be inheriting about $70k. Some folks are telling me now is a smart time to buy a house. Is that a good idea, or is housing going to be a few years before it gets back to a state where someone should invest in it?
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Post by Shinova »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:If you won a tenner, I don't think you'd be bothered.

If you won a few hundred million in a multi-state or international one, then it depends on what currency you have. I really don't see the dollar being a major player any more, so I'd convert it immediately into euros or something else and pocket it. Or invest it in something that is near enough rock solid, like property or grain.
By convert and pocket it do you mean accepting nearly the whole amount right off the bat?
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Post by SirNitram »

Admiral Valdemar wrote:All very true, and a horrible fact that few want to acknowledge even if they know of it. The game is different this time though. Do we let them reap what they sowed and fall, taking with them the economy we know and love? Or do we bail them out and run the currency into the ground, risk public uproar if the propaganda fails and total loss of confidence in bankers and the government that keep them in check?

Neither choice is palatable: keep the bad guys in business, or implode the global economic system...
So exercise choice #3: Don't let unregulated investment banks the chance to get that large.

The Glass-Steagall Acts included a regulation that prevented bank holding companies from owning other financial institutions. In 1999, Sen. Phil Graham(Formerly R-Texas, now co-chair of McCain's campaign) repealed it and began what can only be termed a crusade to deregulate anything that prevented mergers of investment houses and might stifle their practices.

It's not hard to see how the orgy of deregulation that followed led to this crisis. The mergers were just a lovely way of ensuring no one would actually suffer: They're now too big to be allowed to fail.

I'm just shocked a man that's still viable for the Presidency has talked about how this is all because of deregulation.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I recently (this week, in fact) was informed that I would be inheriting about $70k. Some folks are telling me now is a smart time to buy a house. Is that a good idea, or is housing going to be a few years before it gets back to a state where someone should invest in it?
I'm going to be obtuse and say see a financial adviser on that. I know a lot of what we're doing here is rending the hinds of people whose jobs entail looking after and investing money, but I honestly don't think anyone here is qualified in telling you what to do without a good long talk and some history and plans to scrutinise. Myself, I'd probably wait six months and see how it fares. Prices may go even lower in the States. In the UK, though, because of a shortage of houses and less land than the US, prices may simply lose momentum rather than collapse (I won't consider going off my rent status until I see some stability, which now seems hopelessly optimistic).
Shinova wrote:
By convert and pocket it do you mean accepting nearly the whole amount right off the bat?
Yes, Space Cadet. You get that cash and put it into something that won't depreciate like the dollar. At least then you have the value in dollars as it is now, and maybe you can make more on that investment if you play it right. The dollar will lose value, oil and gold will not. Dollars are a dozen a penny nowadays. They ain't making any more precious metals or land.

Actually, a quote I heard on TV recently made me think more about this...
Grandpa George, [i]Charlie & The Chocolate Factory[/i] wrote:There's plenty of money out there. They print more of it every day. But that ticket? There are only five of them in the world, and that's all there's ever going to be. Only a dummy would give this up for something as common as money. Are you a dummy?
So, are you, Space Cadet? No, because you have us. Invest wisely.

If you win the lottery.
SirNitram wrote: So exercise choice #3: Don't let unregulated investment banks the chance to get that large.

The Glass-Steagall Acts included a regulation that prevented bank holding companies from owning other financial institutions. In 1999, Sen. Phil Graham(Formerly R-Texas, now co-chair of McCain's campaign) repealed it and began what can only be termed a crusade to deregulate anything that prevented mergers of investment houses and might stifle their practices.

It's not hard to see how the orgy of deregulation that followed led to this crisis. The mergers were just a lovely way of ensuring no one would actually suffer: They're now too big to be allowed to fail.

I'm just shocked a man that's still viable for the Presidency has talked about how this is all because of deregulation.
It's damage control now, my friend. While this is a lesson we can learn (and then subsequently forget when the good times roll again), the only options are the two on the table already. Death by decapitation or by a thousand cuts.
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