Fact or Fiction? Kill a dog by breaking its legs.

[Jaepheth]

I read a story about a guy checking a home meter when an old lady apparently sicked her three pit bulls on him. He was nearly killed, and his lawyer just dropped his case due to lack of profit potential (after several years and $30,000 worth of bills), and the guy was understandably pissed and venting online.

Anyway, this got me thinking, "What would I do if I were attacked by dog(s)?"

So I start reading up on the subject. Seems that against more than 1 dog you're pretty much fucked. And even against one dog there's no one right answer. But one piece of advice kept showing up.

It goes like this, if you can get a hold of the legs (I've seen both hind and fore legs mentioned) and pull them outward (as in away from each other), you'll kill the dog by ripping (or otherwise effecting) its heart. I've not seen any mechanism posed to explain this, except for a vague reference to tendons or some such. So I'm quite skeptical of this claim.

Can anyone confirm this as fact or fiction?

[cosmicalstorm]

Supposedly you can immobilize a dog by holding up it's hindlegs in a wheelbarrow position, but I've never tried it.

The only sure way is with a gun, and even then you have to aim good.

Heres a vid of a cop shooting a dog that had attacked it's owner, first with several sprays of strong mace, wich has no effect, and then with his gun. It takes something like ten bullets fired at close range before it rolls over, dogs can tolerate extreme amounts of violence when the adrenaline is pumping, I think scaling a nearby tree might be a more attractive option than trying to rip it's legs off.

(Warning: somewhat graphic footage)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VXEydFRHP0

[ShadowRider77]

I suppose it depends on the dog also, not only obvious size and weight but also the kind.

According to what I heard, with long-muzzled dogs (german sheperds, for example), you can disable his jaws my thrusting something fully in them and pushing strong. With "something" I mean even your own elbow, if you have nothing else. The point is that long-muzzled dogs cannot exert that much force when their jaws are fully opened, so if you stuff them full and keep them that way, they cannot wound you seriously. Once you disabled the jaws, which are the most immediate threat, you can try choking their throat, or stab them if you have a suitable blade.

The person who explained this to me related of an episode that happened him, when he was attacked by a dog and managed, for a while, to avoid serious bite damage using the technique I described. He also told me that he tried to choke the dog, but couldn’t due to their position. He was wounded, also, when the dog's owner came to help and, not knowing better, grabbed the collar and pulled back: the moment the dog found himself with a bit of room to close his jaws, he bit before my friend could remove his arm, seriously wounding him. This to explain that it is not an easy or fault-proof way.

About short-muzzled dogs, like bulldogs, this does not apply, because they can exert near their maximum force with their jaws fully opened, and as far as I know there is no safe way to deal with them, except a gun. I once read on a self-defense magazine that the only way to survive (and underline survive...) an attack by a full-size pitbull is to 'sacrifice' your weak arm, by letting the dog bite and probably break and lacerate it, and stab him with a wide-bladed knife while he does so. Not exactly a safe way. It also suggested that you could minimize damage by rolling something (a jacket or anything) around your arm, but seems to me unlikely that you will have time to do this...also, I think there is quite a chance that the dog will simply ignore your arms and go for your lower legs. A bulldog or pitbull is strong enough to easily throw you on the ground by biting your leg and twisting his head, and once he's done it he'll probably go to your throat...

The undertext in all the above is that any large, aggressive dog is a very serious opponend for an unarmed person of average strenght.

I've never heard about the legs thing, instead. I think you can try to pin down the dog by pushing his legs sideways on the ground (if you can gain the upper hand, which is not assured...), but I'm not sure it is lethal or damaging in itself.

Also, as it has been already pointed out, this applies for a single dog. For more dogs...run like hell and hope you reach a suitable tree before they get you. It is the only thing that comes in my mind.

[Sturmfalke]

It goes like this, if you can get a hold of the legs (I've seen both hind and fore legs mentioned) and pull them outward (as in away from each other), you'll kill the dog by ripping (or otherwise effecting) its heart. I've not seen any mechanism posed to explain this, except for a vague reference to tendons or some such. So I'm quite skeptical of this claim.

I would also be extremely sceptical about this. Think about it, to pull the fore legs outward, you need both hands, leaving your face and throat exposed. It just doesn't seem to be a good idea, even if it's feasible.

[TheFeniX]

It goes like this, if you can get a hold of the legs (I've seen both hind and fore legs mentioned) and pull them outward (as in away from each other), you'll kill the dog by ripping (or otherwise effecting) its heart. I've not seen any mechanism posed to explain this, except for a vague reference to tendons or some such. So I'm quite skeptical of this claim.

Can anyone confirm this as fact or fiction?

You'd probably just disable the dog if you had the strength, but this reminds me of kids back in junior high who took a few karate classes and say shit like "I could kill you with one punch by hitting you in X spot." The question is: how do you pull off a pinpoint strike when dealing with something or someone fully intent on killing or disabling you?

Getting yourself into a position to grab his legs like that (which means you're probably already on your back) is going to leave your throat exposed, among other things.

Supposedly you can immobilize a dog by holding up it's hindlegs in a wheelbarrow position, but I've never tried it.

That's true. I've seen it done by my buddy when his lab was molesting another dog and it's all he could grab. He then spun slowly to roll the dog onto it's back. The lab was pretty helpless afterwards. Then again, he wasn't the target of the dogs aggression.

To hit on what Shadow said, on long-muzzled dogs, you can also get yourself into a position to grab their snout towards their eyes, with your fingers wrapping around into their mouth. You'll get some small cuts on your hand, but they can't exert any real bite-force and you've got some control over them. You can then grab the scruff and lift up and get some real control over them. I've done this when wrestling with my over-excited Golden Retriever, but I'd rather haul ass than try it against an unknown dog.

Against one dog, find anything that offers you a reach advantage. A stick, broom, rake, anything and just keep the dog off you while backing up to safety and calling for help. If nothing is available, as said, sacrifice your weak arm and start trying to gouge the eyes out. I've got a bit of an advantage as I always carry a knife on me for work related purposes. As it's dull as Hell from cutting wire and boxes open, it's not great, but it's still a pointed weapon.

I really don't know what I'd do if confronted by three aggressive dogs, especially pit bulls. Fighting is just not an option, even with a handgun. And I'm not prone to walking around random areas with my pump 12-gauge ready to fend off dog attacks. If I've got a stick, I would try to keep them off me while backing up, but not flat-out running if I could avoid it. That tends to bring out more agression from them.

If you're backed into a corner with no other option, go fetal while protecting your neck and head and call for help.

[Eulogy]

I read a story about a guy checking a home meter when an old lady apparently sicked her three pit bulls on him. He was nearly killed, and his lawyer just dropped his case due to lack of profit potential (after several years and $30,000 worth of bills), and the guy was understandably pissed and venting online.

How did the story end?

[Covenant]

You can't kill a dog by spreading it's legs, no. As puppies they often let their legs spread and as an adult it would take a degree of force I don't believe you would be capable of exerting, especially with the dog thrashing and biting at you.

I've got a 70 pound bulldog, which for anyone who knows bulldogs, means an awful lot of bulldog. A male bulldog should weigh about 55 pounds tops. It's overly long, so it' got this odd slightly athletic build to it, as well as having this polar-bear like wad of scruff at the neck and down the chest.

If she came at me I know I could defend myself, but by now I'm intimately familar with the inside of that dog's mouth and her attack patterns from all the rough play she likes to do. Generally though, I think that if you're attacked by a single dog, you should be fine--a single dog is not going to be very confident so long as you portray the correct kind of body posture and don't let him get ahold of you. Get something in the way of the mouth--like a plastic chair or a tennis racket or something (dogs can't bite a flat surface) and focus on simply getting the thing confused rather than riled up. If you can break the cycle of violence the dog will have a greater degree of losing it's attack nerve and may even get freaked or submissive. That's just dog psychology. If you attack a dog their pain resistance kicks in and they go into defense and aggression modes. If you block it without retreating, the thing may get worried. You're an ape, so fight like an ape. Rocks, branches, etc. Call for help. Just don't run unless you can get somewhere, or else you turn yourself into a prey animal and that's no good. The 'get away' response is what turns a suprised housedog into a vicious dog-bite accident.

Now, some dogs are feral and bonkers. If someone has sent an attack dog at you, you can physically overwhelm it because it simply doesn't weigh that much. Even a large dog won't be much more than 100 or so pounds usually, and that's generally where pitbulls top out too. You can send a dog like that flying if you get an arm on it, and dogs don't have strong hips. You could really disable a pitbull if you sent it sailing like that, since with a lame leg it won't be able to go after you. In general the back legs are the weakest part of most dangerous dog breeds, since they're build for forwards power and have thin back leg bones and exposed tendons. A power breed, like a bulldog or a pitbull, will have a large neck and dense head which makes blows to the face hard to do and ruins any chance of grappling with it until you flip it on it's back. A normal-shaped dog, though, can be put into a headlock.

You can also get a single dog on it's back and choke it, the windpipe is pretty exposed. Don't bother punching it, the things have skulls like rocks. My dog regularly runs right through chairs and stuff to get at toys--she's basically a bulldozer. You're going to get clawed but that's not the real point.

Against several dogs you will probably need to gauge your options fast. Either go after them to quickly take out one and then another, maybe scaring them off if you're lucky enough to get the lead dog, or if you can get some vertical height you should be fine. Dogs don't climb trees well. If you have access to water, like a pool, dogs also don't have the advantages in water that you will. You can easily keep it under water while standing in a pool.

If you look at the dog video we saw posted, you'll notice that the dog is really not very large and that it wasn't even being aggressive to the cops overall. It was just confused at that point and scared. If you can remove it from the situation that gets it's adrenaline going, it'll cease the behavior. If you're terrified of getting bitten you're a lot worse off since the dog is far more likely to attack a stressed human than an assertive, nonconfrontational one. But if you're really worried about dog attack, I'd consider getting an air-horn and some citronella spray. The citrus stuff works because it's really suprising to the dog and causes no pain. Pain = aggression, so you want to avoid pain. The air horn works for a similar reason. Dogs have very acute senses, and their eyesight is the least important one to them. Blinding a dog doesn't do much. But freaking it's nose or ears out will cause the Dog to be less confident and that also breaks the line of thinking that lead to aggression. Why do you think dogs hate thunder? :p

Overall though, random dog attacks from badly behaved but non-attack dogs can be avoided by being aware of the dog's presence, avoiding eye contact and aggression, and avoiding passive or weak body language.

[Jaepheth]

I read a story about a guy checking a home meter when an old lady apparently sicked her three pit bulls on him. He was nearly killed, and his lawyer just dropped his case due to lack of profit potential (after several years and $30,000 worth of bills), and the guy was understandably pissed and venting online.

How did the story end?

Oh it's on going. He's looking at getting another lawyer, trying to figure out what all his ex-lawyer had done, finding out the statute of limitations, wether or not he can sue the ex-lawyer too, etc., etc.

[ShadowRider77]

<<I cut the post to save space...>>

Very interesting, to say the least. You almost make that (taking out a pitbull) sound easy...

Jokes apart, I fortunately have never been attacked by a dog (well, once I was, but the dog was small and not very strong, also I was wearing heavy boots so I didn't feel his bites, and my main concern was to drive him away without hurting him too much...) and I have never owned one, so I am not very familiar with their combat abitudes. In fact, all I've told in my previous post were things I have read or that have been related or explained to me. Your first-hand informations were, as I said, extremely interesting.

Since you appear to have much more familiarity on this topic, may I ask you what, to your knowledge, are a dog's attack patterns? (if they have attack patterns, of course...). Do they run at full speed and leap at the target's head? Or instead they come low and go for the legs? They try to overwhelm the opponent with a charge, or instead they prefer to bite him and drag him on the ground? I imagine it varies with the kind, but nevertheless any information would be appreciated.

It's not that I am particluarily worried about being attacked by a dog, but I think it is always better to be as prepared as possible for any contingency...

[Singular Intellect]

As I've heard it, if you force a dog's front legs apart far enough and with enough force, it's shoulder blades actually crush it's heart.

Whether that's actually true or not or that your typical person could physically do it I'm not sure.

[brianeyci]

Against several dogs you will probably need to gauge your options fast.

What about women or lightweight men? I am sure I'd have trouble going after a 100 lbs dog, so what should I do? In such a situation I'd actually freeze and do nothing, avoiding eye contact, probably out of sheer fear. Will dogs gut me then?

If I waited I'm not sure I could kick a dog faster than it could jump on me. I'm 100% sure that the only option in your list I could do is kick, and the rest, wrestle with the dog, put it in a headlock, or split the legs like the op says, I couldn't even physically do even if I had the balls.

It would be one kick from me, or a vicious series of kicks and a He-Man scream, and that would be it.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

I've always wondered about this. I'm a relatively small guy (140lbs) but am rather confident sparring with people ~200 or less (anymore and I start having trouble getting you off the groun). Dogs are way less than half my lift and chuck weight, and I know that dogs are shit when it comes to landing on their feet and it gets worse the heavier they are. Honestly what Covenants said seems to make the most sense. Canines aren't really the best one on one killers. If you had lots of dogs I'd be more worried.

Now if it were a feline of equal weight, I think I'd pretty much be fucked.

[Singular Intellect]

Against several dogs you will probably need to gauge your options fast.

What about women or lightweight men?

Depends entirely upon the individual in question. One person may freeze up and be terrified, with practically any type of dog chewing the shit out of them. On the other hand, a individual who's smarter and more physically confident may easily deal with one.

For example, many dogs will run and jump up at a person. If the person is quick enough, it actually wouldn't be that hard to redirect the dog away from you and have it hit the ground instead.

People aren't defenseless, it's just a fact most are chickenshit and/or stupid.

I am sure I'd have trouble going after a 100 lbs dog, so what should I do?

What do you mean going after one? You mean initiating the attack yourself?

In such a situation I'd actually freeze and do nothing, avoiding eye contact, probably out of sheer fear. Will dogs gut me then?

If the dog senses fear, then that will only confirm it's instinct that you're prey and it's the predator, thus likely encouraging it to attack if that's is it's intention in the first place.

You'd be surprised just how many dogs will back down very quickly if you take an aggressive and predatory stance yourself.

It's no joke that you need to establish yourself as either a wolf or sheep. Most people unfortauntely chose the latter.

If I waited I'm not sure I could kick a dog faster than it could jump on me. I'm 100% sure that the only option in your list I could do is kick, and the rest, wrestle with the dog, put it in a headlock, or split the legs like the op says, I couldn't even physically do even if I had the balls.

It would be one kick from me, or a vicious series of kicks and a He-Man scream, and that would be it.

Personally, I'd recommend a couple of things:

1) Immediately try to get a hold of some club like weapon, something with reach. A stick, broom, bat, whatever. That greatly increases your chances of fighting off a dog.

2) Immediately try to find any object that you can put between yourself and the dog, like a garbage can, a car, etc. Preferably something you can easily see over, but they cannot easily see you over (allows you to keep manuevering away from it, keeping the object between you two). Even shorter people have an advantage over your typical dog in height, so use it.

3) Remember that a dog's primary (and most concerning weapon) is it's jaws. They have claws on their feet as well, but they aren't too big an issue (unlike if you were dealing with a cat; no joke, I'd rather face an attacking 100 pound dog than a attacking 10 pound cat).

[Singular Intellect]

Against several dogs you will probably need to gauge your options fast.

One point on that issue is that if you're being physically attacked by a group of dogs, do your damnest to seriously injure one of them enough that it yelps and hollers in pain, ideally incapacitating it. This will tend to put the other dogs in a much more cautious mode, since you just established you can hurt them badly.

[Sam Or I]

All I can say is do not run or flinch. I have two stories which I thought were going to be dog attacks.

The first one I saw a dragon sculpture sticking out of an orchard. I had my camera with me so I stopped and got out of the car to take a snapshot. I was about 20 yards away from the car when two rather large dogs from the other side of the orchard started barking and they charged me. Funny, the first thought was to figure out how to put down the expensive camera to deal with the animals. There was no time. All I could do was stare them down. Thank god it worked. They stopped within 5 feet of me and they made alot of noise. The owner eventually came out and got them.

The second story was at night, walking a dark street alone. This massive pitbull started stalking me. I tried to ignore it. I was a bigger than average pit, and it was really fat. It finally started running, I held my ground. It jumped on me knocking my ass to the ground. It started licking me to death. I almost crapped myself. Right then and there it was the sweetest dog in the world, but I hope I never meet it again.

Both times I got lucky that none of the dog were trained to attack. I would have been toast if they were, or if I ran I am sure I would have turned into prey.

[Invictus ChiKen]

I've often been talked to walk away slowly and not look back. The idea being you appear to be totally uninterested in them therefore not pray.

It helps if you can think of something that really pisses you off, then you do not smell like prey.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I remember reading an old piece of classical European literature my dad picked up in some attic sale where an 18th century English boy was sent to live with French noble relatives and saved his cousin from a hound attack by grabbing the dog from behind and thrusting his knees into the dog's spine far enough to break it. Is that just an old myth, or are dog spines really that fragile?

[DarthShady]

I have had a few runnings with dogs myself.There are a lot of stray dogs in my neighborhood. As people have said it helps to act like a predator in such a conflict. The first time i got attacked by a dog, i had to use my bag to block his attacks and then i kicked it in the head a few times and it gave up and left. Luckily for me it wasn't a big dog.
The second time it happened it was a pit bull (a neighbors dog), and i was scared as shit. I ran and tried to get away(it was a very big dog). What saved me was another dog called Ursa, a female Labrador. I knew her since she was a puppy(she belongs to my cousin), she charged the pit bull and attacked him, he ran away. If she hadn't appeared when she did it would have ended badly for me.

I've often been talked to walk away slowly and not look back. The idea being you appear to be totally uninterested in them therefore not pray.

It helps if you can think of something that really pisses you off, then you do not smell like prey.

I have been told that to. Also people say that if you yell at the dog it will get scared and run away. I never tried that, but it might work.

[Shogoki]

If I waited I'm not sure I could kick a dog faster than it could jump on me. I'm 100% sure that the only option in your list I could do is kick, and the rest, wrestle with the dog, put it in a headlock, or split the legs like the op says, I couldn't even physically do even if I had the balls.

It's quite possible to kick a dog before it jumps you, even a reasonably big one, in fact, it's been done and recorded on an actual attack:

Warning: Dog Attack

Of course, not everyone is carrying guns and tasers around, but it should give an idea of how to first react when getting jumped by a dog in order to gain a few seconds to think something up.

[Tanasinn]

I've heard a couple of things, though I can't personally vouch for accuracy.

1.) Getting a dog to fuck off can be sort of like getting other wild animals to fuck off. Stand your ground, stand up straight. If you're wearing a coat, open it up wide to make yourself look bigger. Dunno if loud noises help.

2.) I've heard that one can break a dog's neck if one thrusts their forearm to the back of its jaw, places a hand/arm at the back of the skull, and jerks the head violently up.

[Covenant]

This is specifically a reply to ShadowRider. Nobody else has to read it, I'm just talking about the way dogs go after you. Some dogs will do wierd shit--they're smart, and sometimes do attempt creative things--but generally they're pretty predictable. Like being in a knife fight, you need to assume you're going to get cut. The idea is just to get the dog to stop attacking long enough for it to want to run away. This is generally about 5-10 seconds after the attack plan breaks down for the dog. They don't generally show Rocky-like determination. They're strictly a fair-weather predator.

Jokes apart, I fortunately have never been attacked by a dog (well, once I was, but the dog was small and not very strong, also I was wearing heavy boots so I didn't feel his bites, and my main concern was to drive him away without hurting him too much...) and I have never owned one, so I am not very familiar with their combat abitudes. In fact, all I've told in my previous post were things I have read or that have been related or explained to me. Your first-hand informations were, as I said, extremely interesting.

Since you appear to have much more familiarity on this topic, may I ask you what, to your knowledge, are a dog's attack patterns? (if they have attack patterns, of course...). Do they run at full speed and leap at the target's head? Or instead they come low and go for the legs? They try to overwhelm the opponent with a charge, or instead they prefer to bite him and drag him on the ground? I imagine it varies with the kind, but nevertheless any information would be appreciated.

It's not that I am particluarily worried about being attacked by a dog, but I think it is always better to be as prepared as possible for any contingency...

The first rule of a dog attack is that the dog is not attempting to eat you, the dog is attempting to be a dog. If the dog's first impression of you is 'prey' and it attacks and you run, it will the try to eat you. If it's first impression is 'prey' and then it runs at you and you blast it with an airhorn while coming at it, it may go 'oh fuck!' and run away instead. Managing your own fear level is important, but it's more important to treat the dog like a bully with no balls. Unless the dog has a pack (more dogs, it's human master, whatever) it will not be confident attacking by itself. Dogs are wolves, and hunt in packs. A wolfpack can bring down a moose or a bear, but a lone wolf can be scared away by a damn porcupine or skunk. That should tell you something. But anyway, all dogs are different. Some really are unstable, and you may need to snap one of it's legs to get it to stop. The idea of a junkyard dog being a mean sonofabitch is not just a myth, they're encouraged to do this. Jackasses also encourage this in their fighting dogs.

For example, when my bulldog hears a noise, it'll perk up, the hair stands up and it'll go to the doorway and bark. A nice loud, deep bark. And if the noise continues, it'll get higher and higher pitched and more worried, unless I get up. If I get up and say "get it!" or whatever, she'll usually charge into the next room... and then run back if I don't come with. A dog needs it's pack leader to give it courage enough to do more than a little bit of a fight.

There's a few situations that dogs strike in. Generally you can think of these as Defensive and Offensive, just to make it simple. I'll be talking about postures and signals, so read This Page to get an idea of what to look for. These signals are even easier to tell on a dog because they often have less hair on the face and more expressive eyes.

Offensive dog strikes are like the one in the video--dogs will run at you at full speed, and either leap at you or go for an ankle. For a dog like my bulldog that can mean knocking you on your ass right away, since 70 pounds of dog striking you at knee level is bound to drop you. In this case the best way to avoid a charge is like with anything, side-stepping or backing up. Don't let it get near your feet, it'll bite and shake.

Sometimes you'll be able to tell one of these are coming because the dog is giving you an aggressive, alert posture. Most of the time you'll just hear some barking and then a second later see a dog coming at you. Rule of thumb, anytime a dog closes it's mouth is possible 'alert' posture. A relaxed mouth usually hangs slightly open. A closed mouth, still body posture, and ears up can be a very bad sign.

The sequence usually goes like charge, leap/lunge, a few snaps, and then a re-evaluation. Backing up is actually good, because it gives you room to kick and gives the dog room. If you don't respond to aggression with aggression, it might freak out and run, or at least give you some time to posture better. Yelling is fine because quietness is submissive, and you don't want to be submissive, you want to be loud and strong and healthy and dominant. Even a 140 pound person is very large to a dog, since height is also translated into dominance. Being loud also helps draw attention and help from other people, which can fuck with the dog's courage. You can yell "Help! Help!" Just do it like you're pissed off at it.

Defensive attacks are a lot more common and can be a lot more dangerous, because they're usually triggered when you enter an area the dog things it owns. This is what happens to mailmen and stroller-moms and kids trying to get a frisbee out of a tree. Since the dog is on it's own turf it's automatically stronger and braver. On the other hand, defensive strikes are also a lot easier to predict and avoid since not all defensively striking dogs are unbalanced, bad dogs. My bulldog might not even attack a robber on her lonesome since I've trained her to be submissive to people, but if I was in danger she would. This is proper behavior from a dog, so there's no reason to act suprised.

Defensive strikes usually happen because the dog has already warned you with barking or banging on an object. Often times they'll charge a fence and bark. Usually when this happens to me on a walk I just kinda stare at the dog and end up having it whine to be petted, but this same behavior can lead to an attack.

Dogs that attack defensively are generally anxious, nervous, and restless. They might be running around an enclosure, or jogging in a territory. Dogs like this are more likely to give you the growl and flash their teeth to show they'll fight, but you can even move into the dog's space if you have a chair or a trashcan. I rarely see these dogs jump, they're more likely to bite at anything outstretched or at your feet. If it bites at the object just hold your ground, let it notice you're not worried, and then move agian. If you can 'claim' the dog's area by moving into it, you've basically showed it who is boss. It may be unstable and dangerous still, but if you don't back it into a corner, you can move past a defensively fearful dog by just showing calm dominance.

As with attacking dogs, moving backwards can be helpful, but if you're in a dog's yard you're less likely to be able to just back up to dissuade it, since it's guarding a territory and possibly the rest of it's pack--ie, the owners.

In both cases you'll notice barking--since the dog is not trying to stalk you for food, it's going to let you know where it is so it can scare you off. It's possible that you stumbled into an area where the dog was and it begins a defensive attack without barking first, and then you actually need to defend yourself.

As I said elsewhere, dogs generally bite rapidly with a lot of force until they find something to grip onto, then shake and pull. If this is your pant leg, or real leg, it can turn into you falling down with a bad injury. If there are other dogs, they can now reach your face and neck--which are the locations most animals strike at when going after prey. Even a slow dog can bite fast, and they snap outwards with their necks too. You'll want to consider about a foot or so in front of the dog's face to be within reach. If you're a crazy badass you can actually mess the dog up by going after it's jaw, but you'll probably just get your fingers torn to shreds. The idea of sacrificing an arm does work, since they'll take what they can get and go for it. But since a dog can't bite a flat surface, you're better off presenting the bottom of your foot.

If a dog has successfully evaded your kick and is going after your leg, I'd almost say you're better off trying to fall on the dog and land on it's back hip. Dogs have really poorly designed rear hips--and their legs have a tendency to slip out of the socket, especially power breeds like pits and bulls, because of the splayed stance that gives them a lot of power. Crushing anything on the rear hip in terms of small bones of the legs or vertebrae will take it out. Plus, most 'dangerous' dogs are too heavily built to reach back on you if you have their back legs. When some dogs fight, you'll notice they try to go for the back legs. Dogs also get most of their running power from the back legs and not the front, so it effectively ruins their forward progress. And if you can drop down and hit the dog with your upper body, like landing armpit on it's hips, you'll possibly do a lot of damage.

Don't bother going for the face and neck though. I once blacked out my brother by mistake by bobbing him on the back of the head (didn't mean to hit the right spot), and I've wailed on my dog with far more force than that regularly as part of her playing and she doesn't even notice. A thin dog won't be attacking you anyway, it'll be some overfed rottie or pit or something.

The reason for this is clear. All dogs are equally unlikely to attack humans. The things that increase the risk of dog attack are 1) abuse 2) lack of socialization 3) intact male testicles 4) previous incidence of attack on humans.

So basically idiots who kick their dog, use their dog as a penile compensator and don't snip it's balls, and fail to show their dog to people of all ages and bring it to dog parks are the most likely to create a dog that will attack. These are also the people most likely to buy a Pitbull, Rottweiler or American Bulldog from their friend's litter of puppies, and these are also the breeds most likely for the same reason to be wandering the streets feral because they were let go or escaped or never had owners.

Basically that's the anatomy of a dog attack.

TL,DR version: Running away never works--even the slowest dog can outrun you (or should be assumed to). Even an alligator can outrun you. Plus it triggers predatory instincts by making you prey. Avoiding pain by using an object to make yourself bigger and stronger and in the way of the attack will lessen the dog's reserves of courage. Backing away gives the dog the space it needs to reconsider options and retreat, as well as giving you the space you need to kick or reposition your defensive item while also giving the proper body posture of a defensive, powerful opponent to the dog. Lastly, if you're being bitten already or have nothing to defend yourself with, protect first in this order--neck, arms, legs. If it gets around your feet, try to get behind it and damage the rear legs. Don't bother striking their face, unless they have bitten your arm. If that happened, gouge their eyes with your thumb as hard as you can and press in, dogs won't let go for a few seconds of that but will generally freak and defensive bite, letting go of the arm. Make a lot of noise--good advice in any self defense situation.

And if you're in a high-risk profession, carry a few suprising and nonpainful deterrant options, or something professional like a tazer. Tazers work better than bullets because they cause muscle spasms and scare the fuck out of dogs. Once a dog has gone into attack mode, it can't leave attack mode the same way.

[ShadowRider77]

<SNIP>

Thank you very much for the informations. Seems very exhaustive to me, lots of practical advice. I'll take my time to read the page you linked about postures and signals.

I must say I'm impressed with your knowledge on this topic.

Also, the airhorn advice strikes me as very useful. I don't know exactly how it works where you live, but around here pretty much every kind of hand-to-hand weapon (knives, clubs, tazers etc.) is illegal to carry on yourself. I usually carry around a Swiss Army knife (one of the larger ones), but it is more to have a tool with me (yes, I liked MacGyver when I was a child. So sue me. And I must say it was useful on countless situations...) than anything else (it needs two hands to open it, thus making it almost useless for defence, except if the aggressor warns you with several seconds of advance...), and it is practically all you can carry around without problems. Airhorns, though, are not weapons, so you can carry them around safely (I hope...). I remember I once saw a compact one, small enough to be carried in a pocket (albeit probably with a very small tank...), I'll look it up.

By the way, I also saw for sale a kind of ultra-sound emitter, the producer claimed it emitted a sound unaudible by humans but 'guaranteed' to scare away any dog. While it is well-known that dogs can hear sounds on higher frequency than humans, is it plausible that a high-frequency sound will scare it away, or is it more likely to drive it mad?

[Covenant]

The dog won't care about ultrasound. Some of these things can be effective as annoyance versions of deterrant, but what you need is something loud and present. The reason an airhorn is effective, especially as it comes close to you, is because it interrupts the dog's train of thought. The mental effort required to evaluate the thought breaks it out of attack mode, which drops it back into it's default mode of worried, lone predator.

It's plausible that it could scare it off, but a full-power airhorn will be much more effective and also has the added benefit of drawing a lot of human attention, which can be key, especially to alert the owner that their dog is being dangerous. I bet the ultrasound would be noticable to a dog, but not distressing overall. The dogs most dangerous to people know how to ignore pain, and go into this sort of barbarian rage when they go into a fight mode.

I'm in the Chicago area so guns and pepper sprays and stuff are off-limits. Not that they'd be of much use anyway, if you can even hit the dog you may not be able to put it down. Pepper spray might work but it's mostly just useless. Something suprising and extremely offensive like a citronella spray usually works the best. It's also used to break up dogfights already in progress, so you know it must be effective. Don't overdo it of course, it's not a deterrant. Think of it as a sucker punch. The idea is to suprise the dog and block the aggression.

Really, you shouldn't go looking to fight a dog, and you shouldn't murder someone's pet just because it goes off the handle. Like in the clip below, usually it's just a dumb dog doing some barking and posturing but it's not going to hurt anyone. Just like the best way to win a fistfight isn't to always assume your opponent needs to die you can certainly get out of a dog attack with just a bit of bluster and some avoidance.

Want to see a fat old man scare off a pitbull? ;p

Large, loud, and hard to bite. Effective!

Here's a less effective strategy. But also a lot worse circumstances. Home turf, fatass packleader right there spurring it to attack, and the woman let it get ahold of her arm. You really don't want to pull on the dog, the teeth hook backwards which give it a good bite. I can actually pull my bulldog off the floor and it'll hang there biting on whatever I've got for a good 30 seconds or so before it wants to get off. If you want to get your hand out you're better pushing in towards the mouth but I'd probably just move towards the dog and try to get to it's side or behind it. It might be lacerating my hand or arm but if I can grab a back leg then I win, and it'll let go.

And here's just a travesty: Guns and dogs don't mix, and for the love of dog, don't fall down. It's interesting that they were doing the wheelbarrow maneuver to keep the dog, until they let him slip and he got around on that guy who flops down. The lady screams and the cameraman does jack shit, but at some point it seems she gets it by it's legs again. I don't really know what to say, but let's be blunt. If you're in a situation like this, you can hold the legs and twist, or kick, or just spin him around as seen, and with a little more luck you'll be fine. This old lady was the only one who didn't get seriously hurt, and it was the stupid section with the guns that really made it all go to hell. Don't. Shoot. Dogs. Not effective and tragic for everyone!

It is instructive though, you can see the jump, bite, shake maneuver. If you spent less time screaming and pulling your arm out and more time attempting to defend yourself adequately, even a powerful breed like that is not the sort of thing you need to worry about killing you. Alone, that is. Also look at the old lady's tiny dog right next to her, acting all helpful and tough. Pack mentality at work.

Something to take from that vid--it's probably not a pit (head shape looks wrong) but the tail wag doesn't mean happy, it means excited. The comments on the vid are pretty dumb, but what do you expect from youtube.

Furthermore, it raises another issue. One last thing I forgot to mention were dog attacks that happened near a leash. Leash attacks are unusual because you'd think the dog is more under control on a leash, but this is often not the case with a poor handler. Yanking on a leash just adds a little pain and the simulation of back and forth banging motions, which is like a charge. Dogs don't really mind pulling, and actually get all fired up to strain against a leash. So a weak, timid, fearful owner of a large dog that can't control it is actually empowering the dog to become aggressive by demonstrating their own weakness and lack of control. This puts the dog in the pack leader position and fucks everything up. While a dog that is alone is normally weak because it lacks a pack, feral dogs or dogs who've become the pack leader are more likely to be aggressive (even if they aren't self-confident). So if you see someone who is having trouble controlling their dog, your best option is to avoid them entirely.

The only reason this topic takes so much text is because people don't understand the fundamental way a dog percieves the attack, and rely too much on trying to kill the dog or inflict pain until it escapes, which don't work.

[Dark Flame]

Covenant, what would you do if a large dog ( a bulldog or whatever) is attacking your dog ( a smaller breed, for example mine is a Welsh corgi)?

In my situation by the time I got there the larger dog had my dog by the neck and was shaking him around. It seems like using an object like a bat and going for it's back legs/hips would be good, but would that usually cause it to realease the smaller dog from it's mouth?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Covenant, what would you do if a large dog ( a bulldog or whatever) is attacking your dog ( a smaller breed, for example mine is a Welsh corgi)?

In my situation by the time I got there the larger dog had my dog by the neck and was shaking him around. It seems like using an object like a bat and going for it's back legs/hips would be good, but would that usually cause it to realease the smaller dog from it's mouth?

If you are this woman the answer is to "wade into the fight, and bite the other dog." (In all seriousness, I wouldn't recommend it, though.) I imagine the answer is that anything that will serve to distract the attacking dog and break it out of attack mentality. At which point, its dim little doggie brain will realize that it is now outnumbered pack-to-lone dog.