Is a fetus considered alive?

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Oni Koneko Damien
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Post by Oni Koneko Damien »

Zixinus wrote:I would consider it alive at the point when it would be capable of breathing and living on its own. Until then, it is a growth inside the mother.
The qualifications for something being 'alive', IIRC, is 1) Having a metabolism/respiration, 2) Having cells, 3) Capable of taking in nutrients and processing them, 4) Having DNA, 5) Having the capability to replicate itself.

By this, yes, a fetus is alive pretty much from the moment it's conceived. By your logic internal parasites aren't truly alive since they are wholly dependent on the host creature for everything.
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Post by The Vortex Empire »

Does it really matter whether or not it's alive? Bacteria are alive, and nobody has a problem with killing them.
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Post by Erik von Nein »

The Vortex Empire wrote:Does it really matter whether or not it's alive? Bacteria are alive, and nobody has a problem with killing them.
Exactly. The entire argument surrounding whether or not a fetus is alive is completely irrelevant to any discussion about abortion. If they weren't alive then abortion wouldn't mean anything to anyone. What you have to focus on is the reasons why abortion would be good or bad (given your bent).

This whole thread just gives me a headache.
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Post by Akhlut »

Talked to my brother last night: he stated that, roughly, most of the brain's structures are formed by the third or fourth month (12-16 weeks), so I still feel fairly confident about what I said earlier.
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Post by Justforfun000 »

You know....when you think about it, it's a wonder there is such an argument about this.

If you're atheist, then you probably go by science and determine the foetus isn't really conscious and therefore truly sapient until a very late stage of pregnacy, and very few would abort at that point in any case thankfully.

If you're along the lines of a Judaistic based religion which of course includes Christianity and Muslim faiths, then first of all you would assume that a soul would pass on to the eventual resting place where it's spending eternity and the greatest 'crime' would be missing the very short earth existence. On top of that, all of these faiths believe in the end of the world and the afterlife being the true eternal place of abode, no? So there has to be a finite number of souls coming into being since they will not be able to be 'born' after armageddon. So it's also not as if there is a line-up of people waiting their turn that are shit out of luck if they're aborted.

If you believe in reincarnation, then you obviously accept the eternal nature of the soul, and eventually with no earth, well the soul has to abide SOMEWHERE, right? So a temporary impediment to living here on earth is no biggie.

When you look at it, only the atheist's point of view is even remotely bad in the sense that you are preventing a new life from ever existing. Of course this is a meaningless value judgment, because who's to say that's necessarily 'wrong'?

All of the religious people have many outs and exceptions, so why the hell are they the ones screaming so loudly? It doesn't really make sense if you think about it.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Justforfun000 wrote:All of the religious people have many outs and exceptions, so why the hell are they the ones screaming so loudly? It doesn't really make sense if you think about it.
It makes sense when you realize that religious arguments are usually arguments of convenience, designed to cloak the underlying true motivation under a semi-plausible argument. The fact that the majority of anti-abortion voters would let a rape victim get an abortion is proof positive that they don't believe their own rhetoric; if they honestly believed that fetus to be morally equivalent to a baby, they wouldn't let a rape victim "murder" it any more than they would let a slutty liberal college student do so.

It's just like creationists and all of their "I'm just concerned about bad science" and "academic freedom" bullshit, when we all know that they couldn't care less about the quality of science or academic freedom. They hate evolution because they're arrogant pisswads who can't deal with the idea that they're not God's most super-duper special creation, and that we're actually cousins of apes. Their stated reasons are nothing more than a smokescreen.

Similarly, the real motivation behind anti-abortion forces is sexual puritanism, which is why they always make sure to caricature women getting abortions as slutty whores with no sense of "personal responsibility". That's also why most of them make an exception for rape victims, because they're not the slutty whores they're trying to punish. They know perfectly well that their "life begins at conception" argument is bullshit, or else they wouldn't be willing to make exceptions for rape victims. It's all about going after undesirables in society. After all, our imaginary slutty college student can't be running around fucking guys if you force her to get pregnant now, can she? She'll learn how to be a responsible God-fearing woman!
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Darth Wong Wrote:
Similarly, the real motivation behind anti-abortion forces is sexual puritanism
Yup. You nailed it bang on. In retrospect it should have been obvious, but for some reason I stupidly keep giving these idiots the benefit of the doubt to a far greater degree then they deserve. :roll:

Silly me to think they would actually have the prime motivation the actual life of the child and not the fanatical concern over the act that creates it. Why the hell does sex always take such a bloody beating in so many religiojns and cultures? Whether it's anti-pleasure in general or specific things life homosexuality or circumcision, there is a constant plethora of society sticking their fucking NOSES where they don't belong. Fuck I'm sick of it! Could sex BE anymore circumspect in nature based on the intimacy and exclusiveness that is part and parcel of two people coupling? Well...ignoring threesomes and orgies of course... :P
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Re: Is a fetus considered alive?

Post by Xon »

ray245 wrote:Well recently I've seen a few debates about a fetus being alive or not, and the morality of killing a fetus from a failed abortion.
Clinical death (which was legal death untill ~1960s or so) is when you stop breathing and your heart stops beating.

At best you can say a fetus can suffer clinical death (aka is not alive) when it finally gets a beating heart or draws it's 1st breath. :P
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Post by ray245 »

The Vortex Empire wrote:Does it really matter whether or not it's alive? Bacteria are alive, and nobody has a problem with killing them.
If it is useful to human body, I have a problem with killing them. Well, unless we need to kill them for them to be useful.

I've always viewed fetus as alive no matter what, same reason why a cell is considered alive.

After all, abortion may cause us to lose the potential to have more brilliant scientist or etc, like another Einstein or another Newton...

While I support the idea that abortion should be legal, I think the issue of abortion should be considered carefully for the people involved.

Now, perhaps scientist should invent a new way for a fetus to be grown in a tank or etc, JUST to make those people who opposed all forms of abortion happy. And people who wants a child but hate the burden of carrying a child happy as well.



After all, nothing about the future is certain...we could gain another brilliant scientist from a failed abortion. :wink:
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Honestly, all of the shit about whether or not a fetus is "alive" or even human is irrelevant. From a utilitarian perspective, it is better to kill the fetus, which has no interests, preferences or ability to experience suffering, than to force a woman to suffer.

From a rights based perspective, all forcing carrying a fetus to term does is enslave the mother to the fetus. It does not have a right to HER body.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Honestly, all of the shit about whether or not a fetus is "alive" or even human is irrelevant. From a utilitarian perspective, it is better to kill the fetus, which has no interests, preferences or ability to experience suffering, than to force a woman to suffer.
That argument only holds if you agree that the fetus has no interests, preferences, or ability to suffer. Anti-abortion activists would probably argue that this is not true, just as they claimed that Terri Schiavo was fully aware of her surroundings despite most of her brain being rotted away.
From a rights based perspective, all forcing carrying a fetus to term does is enslave the mother to the fetus. It does not have a right to HER body.
A baby is considered to have an inherent claim on its parents, so this strict separation of rights is a questionable premise if you believe that a fetus and a baby are equivalent. Which is exactly what fundies believe.

You can't get away from arguing about whether a fetus is equivalent to a baby.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

That argument only holds if you agree that the fetus has no interests, preferences, or ability to suffer. Anti-abortion activists would probably argue that this is not true, just as they claimed that Terri Schiavo was fully aware of her surroundings despite most of her brain being rotted away.
True. But then again, all that requires is expanding the scope of the utilitarian argument to encompass the entire moral community in which the mother lives. An unwanted pregnancy does not just negatively effect her, but her family unit, in that a pregnant female (or one with a young child given the state of adoption in tbhis country) cannot produce as much energy (read: resources) as a non-pregnant/post-natal mother. A baby that is unwanted (and statistically unable to be cared for) puts strain on the social infrastructure and if they are in an unstable environment (like being raised in a poor neighborhood by a mother unable and unwilling to care for it) they may grow to engage in high-risk behavior in order to maximize their reproductive success. This hurts everyone.

Even if we assume the fetus and a baby are equivalent, they have interests, and wants and sapience, it still does not follow, because under a utilitarian ethical system, unwanted babies under many many many circumstances are OK to kill. Provided the momentary suffering of that baby and the total aggregate alleviation of suffering is the best possible balance of good and bad consequences.
A baby is considered to have an inherent claim on its parents, so this strict separation of rights is a questionable premise if you believe that a fetus and a baby are equivalent. Which is exactly what fundies believe.
That is an argument that in countless debates with pro-lifers making this very point I have not heard. It interests me. I know you detest rights-based theories to a degree (as do I due to metaphysical problems) but if you could elaborate that would be awesome.

I would posit that the inherent right of a living baby to impose obligations upon its parents is not absolute, in fact our society has recognized that under many circumstances that right can be over-ridden by the parents desire to not have a child, such as provisions that they be allowed to abandon said children at safe-zones, give them up for adoption, etc. As a result it is not so unreasonable to say that said right does not extend to physical enslavement of the mother in order to use her uterus. Even if we accept a priori that life and metaphysical humanity exist from the moment of the fusion of gametes. Basically, it does not follow and is such, if applied in an actual argument, a non-sequiteur.

If we want to argue equivalence, the only way to do it without being ripped apart on the basis of neurology is to argue that there is something intrinsically special about human DNA, or to argue for some other metaphysical quality like the soul. Both of them open themselves up for massive metaphysical and empirical problems.
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