The REAL importance of Palpatine's mind influence powers

[Darth Wong]

A cursory evaluation of counterinsurgency warfare in real-life reveals that the single greatest weakness of conventional forces against insurgent forces can be summarized in one word: fatigue. Counterinsurgency warfare requires at least an order of magnitude more effort and expense than insurgent warfare, and that's probably a hyper-conservative estimate. Moreover, the uncertainty, seemingly endless duration, and inability to hunt down and destroy the enemy leads to mental and spiritual fatigue among conventional forces tasked with this thankless job.

Now, the Empire as of the end of the Clone Wars is basically an occupying force throughout the Outer Rim. One could say that they are in an indefinite occupation scenario, during which tempers can flare, morale can sag, and soldiers' mental and spiritual fatigue can become crippling to operational effectiveness or even loyalty.

The French grew fatigued in Indochina, the Russians grew fatigued in Afghanistan, and the Americans are growing fatigued in Iraq now. Counterinsurgency warfare is a long, bloody, grinding business.

It has always been assumed that the importance of Palpatine's mental influence has been to increase combat effectiveness. But it occurs to me that given the socio-political situation in the Empire and the fact that they are basically fighting endless counter-insurgency wars all over the Outer Rim, the most important use of his mental powers may have been to keep up the unity of Imperial forces during occupation duty rather than combat. When you think about it, the Imperial forces seem to have remarkably good loyalty considering the far-flung and chaotic nature of their duties. Even in the most remote corners of the Empire, stormtroopers can generally be counted on to basically be loyal to the Empire. And these low-level conflicts consumed most of the Empire's resources: a fact that the Rebels did not understand until after the war.

[spaceviking]

interesting...

however could the storm troopers excluding conscripts simply be bred for extreme loyalty, and Palpatines influence be secondary or mainly concentrated on the Empires military leadership.

[TC Pilot]

To put it quite frankly, the galaxy was a wreck after the Clone Wars. Three years of war, filled with some remarkably heinous acts of destruction (General Grievous is listed off in Death Star as a famous mass-murderer) irrevocably damaged large swathes of the galaxy, making an already corrupt and decadent society ripe for piracy, smuggling, and black market criminal organizations to emerge. Separatist hold-outs, militant pirate gangs, rebellious planetary governments were all conventional forces the Empire had to deal with and destroy. Occasionally, the Empire's military would have other conventional military campaigns, such as Thrawn's conquest of the Unknown Regions or Teshik's invasion of the Consortium.

Apparently, the military was as involved in counter-insurgency suppression as it was just plain reconstruction, providing basic necessities of civilization like education and medicine, enough that Admiral Rogriss seems to have made a career of it (Starfighters of Adumar).

You Rebels remain so very self-righteous. Always speaking of honor, as though you invented the concept. I've spent my whole life in honorable conflict. I've conquered whole worlds to bring civilization to them--literacy and medicine and sanitation and discipline. I've fought the forces of chaos to keep galactic civilization from flying apart. I've only had a few weeks of each year to spend with my children. I've made all these sacrifices...only to be lectured about honor from someone a generation younger than I am. That's reward for you.

A cursory familiarity with Ars Dangor reveals an ideology emerged in the Empire that saw its campaign to impose Imperial order on the Outer Rim and any other resisting or deprived worlds as a matter of defending civilization: "We rule through might and fear—fear of the chaos that would ensue should the Imperial government falter. Who better than the most educated, well-trained, highly civilized élite to lead the lesser beings who know nothing about maintaining culture and organization?" Given COMPNOR's popularity, the civilian population was perhaps even more heavily motivated than the military in this respect. Imperial propaganda was very effective, and rebellion itself, if only from what we see from Return of the Jedi and Shadows of the Empire, was tolerated by the Emperor to the extent that it actually benefited him (with exceptions, of course).

Yes, the constant stresses and rigors of counterinsurgency would indeed wear down any standing army. But the Imperial military was incredibly well-disciplined, backed by a generally supportive population (conscription was not exactly common), lead by a beloved Emperor. Most of the people fighting, if not all, could remember the Clone Wars. Odds are many of them lost relatives or friends or suffered from that war. A war to keep that from ever happening again is a lot stronger motivation than retaining colonies or forcibly imposing a government on an unwilling population.

I believe that is a far better testament to the Emperor's power and brilliance than an unprecedented degree of Force influence.

[JGregory32]

Your idea interests me.
Could Palpatine's force projection have increased the fear of chaos that Imperial Order might bring?
Traditionally the dark side has been viewed as enhancing fear, anger, and hatred could some degree of these acount for the loyalty shown in the ranks?

It was raised in some psychology class that I took that there are positive and negative fears, fears that casue you to act and fears that prevent you from acting. Could Palpatine have used positive fear, i.e. fear of Galactic chaos or another civil war to promote recruitment in the Imperial forces? He could have used negative fear to prevent distrust and disobediance in the ranks. This is not all hypothetical many members of the SS after world war II spoke about being afraid of being shot if they did not follow orders that led to atrocities. Even though the fear was unfounded (no records of anyone being shot for not following orders has been found) it caused many otherwise good people to allow horrible things.

I only bring up the SS story as an example of a negative fear that prevents action, I in no way condone the actions or aims of the German National Socialist party.

[PainRack]

Isn't war fatigue more commonly associated with the civilian populace?

[TithonusSyndrome]

I know there's been some debate over just to what extent the clonetroopers have been engineered to be obedient to Palpatine, but if they aren't outright automatons who see red and thirst for Jedi blood at the mere utterance of Order 66, then I'd say they're at least loyal enough to Palpatine as a product of their cloning to remain so without much or any need for reinforcement on his part. With the exception of enlisted men, and maybe to sway the populace, I don't see any burning need for Palpatine to micromanage the morale and obedience of anyone.

[Darth Wong]

Except that there's no way the entire Outer Rim occupation forces (or probably even a large fraction of them) are composed of clones. The numbers are staggering, and they can't pump out clones that quickly. I could see clones being used for shock troopers and other front-line combat duties, but to use them as occupation forces would be a waste of resources with untenable procurement difficulties.

Just think of the manpower requirements of the occupation/rebuilding programs that must have been in place after the Clone Wars ended, especially in light of what we know about real-life occupation requirements. It would be absolutely mind-boggling, and the job of an occupation force is different from a war-fighting force anyway. The fact that the Americans currently use the same men for both duties is an unavoidable consequence of the way their military is set up, but it doesn't have to be that way.

[wjs7744]

Well, we know from real life that indoctrination can produce fanatical loyalty, up to and including the suicide bomber. I think the real question here is if these techniques can produce similar loyalty in regular forces without compromising their effectiveness. Did Palpatine need to use his force powers to ensure his troops loyalty?

[Darth Wong]

Well, we know from real life that indoctrination can produce fanatical loyalty, up to and including the suicide bomber. I think the real question here is if these techniques can produce similar loyalty in regular forces without compromising their effectiveness. Did Palpatine need to use his force powers to ensure his troops loyalty?

Non-sequitur. The ability to produce fanatical individuals does not equate to the ability to withstand the kind of grinding fatigue brought on by sustained counter-insurgency warfare. You're completely missing the point here, and quite frankly being more than a little dense. There's a reason why insurgent warfare is much easier than counterinsurgency warfare.

[wjs7744]

Non-sequitur. The ability to produce fanatical individuals does not equate to the ability to withstand the kind of grinding fatigue brought on by sustained counter-insurgency warfare. You're completely missing the point here, and quite frankly being more than a little dense. There's a reason why insurgent warfare is much easier than counterinsurgency warfare.

Sorry.

I guess I got confused because you mentioned loyalty, and didn't think to consider that there is a difference between this and fanaticism. I think I understand what you're saying now.

[Darth Hoth]

Your idea interests me.
Could Palpatine's force projection have increased the fear of chaos that Imperial Order might bring?
Traditionally the dark side has been viewed as enhancing fear, anger, and hatred could some degree of these acount for the loyalty shown in the ranks?

It was raised in some psychology class that I took that there are positive and negative fears, fears that casue you to act and fears that prevent you from acting. Could Palpatine have used positive fear, i.e. fear of Galactic chaos or another civil war to promote recruitment in the Imperial forces? He could have used negative fear to prevent distrust and disobediance in the ranks. This is not all hypothetical many members of the SS after world war II spoke about being afraid of being shot if they did not follow orders that led to atrocities. Even though the fear was unfounded (no records of anyone being shot for not following orders has been found) it caused many otherwise good people to allow horrible things.

I only bring up the SS story as an example of a negative fear that prevents action, I in no way condone the actions or aims of the German National Socialist party.

For the sake of the debate, has there been any study on how the German troops responded to the insurgencies they faced during the war? Did they have the same problem as the USA and others do nowadays? Can sheer brutal discipline offset some of the morale issues that soon become apparent in counterinsurgency warfare? The Heer executed thousands for desertion and similar crimes, but was that an effective deterrent, or did it just compound their difficulties?

[TC Pilot]

I think in terms of both mentality and societal forces, the Imperial occupation enjoyed vastly superior circumstances. Not only was the "save civilization, save the galaxy from another Clone Wars" mentality probably much stronger than "join the military to pay for your college education, oh, and bring democracy to these people over here," but the insurgencies the Imperials faced are far different than the ones in modern warfare.

The Rebellion itself was described by the Emperor in TIE Fighter as an insurgency: "Even now our capable forces lead by Darth Vader are striking back at the Rebel insurgents." And the Rebellion was a far more conventional guerilla force. Hit-and-run raids are significantly different than roadside bombs or constant civilian harassment in Iraq or Vietnam. The civilian populations of the Outer Rim seemed rather passive compared to during older attempts to impose Coreward rule (see Path of Destruction), most likely due to a combination of the damage done during the Clone Wars and the threat of Imperial reprisal for continued rebelliousness.

I see no reason why the Empire's ability to police and pacify the galaxy must be attributed to some unseen influence on Palpatine's part.

[Alexian Cale]

Out of curiosity, is mind influencing powers in question simple battle meditation? Or just in general? Because, as I recall, Palpatine was able to influence dreams (JvS: EGttF, he mentions giving Maul the dream of razing the Jedi Temple) and in LoE he was able to use a mind trick on General Grievous. Do we know the exact scope of his ability to influence the minds of others?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Except that there's no way the entire Outer Rim occupation forces (or probably even a large fraction of them) are composed of clones. The numbers are staggering, and they can't pump out clones that quickly. I could see clones being used for shock troopers and other front-line combat duties, but to use them as occupation forces would be a waste of resources with untenable procurement difficulties.

The logistical problems with the number of clones deployed in open combat in the poorly-named Clone War, suggest that occupation would be easier by comparison. Apparently production was able to be ramped up quickly - by unclear means - from but a few million of the available 10-year-gestation clones, to provide a galaxy-wide, full-scale war mobilized, armed force deployed not only as ground soldiers, but as marines, commandos, intelligence operatives, naval aviators, and naval crew. Another thing is occupation of the Outer Rim is not completely comparable to colonization of foreign territories or occupation of a nation-state like Iraq. The galactic community has been unified since time immemorial. Local centers of power supplanted the central government only as it decayed and ebbed. The outer galactic regions, while more freewheeling and independent-minded, are still part of the same culture and civilization, and were formerly part of the Republic that preceded the Empire.

There are at least three distinct types of cloning that were available during the early Empire. The Kaminoan AOTC-type, Jango Fett clones; the Wayland Spaarti cylinder-type clones; and "GeNode"-type clones. In the first case, the clones are derived from the genotype of a single bounty hunter and modified according to role and use. These clones took 10 years to gestate from embryo to fully-capable adult soldier. Since the literature seems quite clear that only a few million of these clones (let us call them K-clones) were ordered originally, it is impossible that the full-scale, rapidly deployed and war-mobilized force of the Clone War was predominantly composed of these troops. In the second case, the Kaminoan vat technology was suitably modified by the Republic itself and was able to gestate a clone fully from embryo to adult form and to wire a functioning brain without conventional training or education while in gestation by means of a technique known as "flash learning." This Republic cloning technology (let us call them S-clones) was being developed by the Spaarti Creations company on Cartao, but was seized in one of Darth Sidious' many schemes to create a secret cloning center for his personal and hidden use. In this case, it is possible the technology survived and was developed later to supplement the existing K-clones for mass-production (for which it was much more suited).

In the last case, the GeNodes are unique in that they emerge from the vat fully adult and capable and with distinct personalities. Rather can crudely copying memories and knowledge from template to forming clone, GeNodes all possess the requisite knowledge and training in order to be deployed immediately upon gestation, but they also invent their own personalities and memories, and are incapable of noticing that they are clones (they are too polite to mention cloning with other clones of their line, but they may and do muse how it is ironic to listen to other clones of other lines to talk about how they are not clones). Like K-clones, and unlike S-clones, they seem hard-wired to not be capable of losing faith in the Empire. In Pax Emperica: The Wookiee Annhiliation, the protagonist loses faith toward the end of the of the campaign, but then immediately kneejerks back into "Empire knows best" loyalty and subservience. Unlike both types, they are totally unaware of being clones. It is important to note that Pax Emperica: The Wookiee Annhiliation takes place during the Battle of Kashyyyk, when the Empire subjugates the world shortly following the declaration of the Empire (occurring shortly afterward on an order of a few months at the most - in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, the supervision of this conquest in cohort with Wilhuff Moff Tarkin is one of Lord Vader's first duties having been fitted with his suit). It is additionally stated that 40% of the Stormtroopers at this point are GeNodes belonging to a single line. The unwitting clone also mentions distinct scout trooper lines and mentions the old Kaminoan Jango Fett-line, which is being phased out (consistent with ROTS ICS stating that K-type naval aviators were being phased out in favor of a more specialized alternative: clones of exemplary naval aviators).

It seems to me most likely that K-clones were supplanted by GeNodes during the Clone War mobilization and that this persisted into the Imperial era. The K-clones or a derivative thereof remained and supplemented the GeNodes; most notably both Star Wars: Empire: Betrayal, and Soldiers of the Empire describe clone stormtroopers very similar to the K-type process. Perhaps S-clones were used as a stopgap or supplement during war mobilization, but it seems clear that they did not form a large number of the clone fighters. Since the GeNodes emerge as "ready-to-deploy" troopers, ideal for shock roles and their mental programming makes them suitable for COIN operations (they cannot lose faith in the Empire).

Of course, a significant fraction of the Imperial Marines were exemplary recruits, so not all of them were clones, GeNode or otherwise. And the Imperial Army was all conventionally enlisted, at least until the Thrawn campaign.

Just think of the manpower requirements of the occupation/rebuilding programs that must have been in place after the Clone Wars ended, especially in light of what we know about real-life occupation requirements. It would be absolutely mind-boggling, and the job of an occupation force is different from a war-fighting force anyway. The fact that the Americans currently use the same men for both duties is an unavoidable consequence of the way their military is set up, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Stormtroopers are well-suited for COIN operations since they are quite clearly predominantly used for paramilitary and peacekeeping operations at any rate; they are used openly as gendarmes on Coruscant, for example.

[Darth Wong]

I think in terms of both mentality and societal forces, the Imperial occupation enjoyed vastly superior circumstances. Not only was the "save civilization, save the galaxy from another Clone Wars" mentality probably much stronger than "join the military to pay for your college education, oh, and bring democracy to these people over here," but the insurgencies the Imperials faced are far different than the ones in modern warfare.

The Rebellion itself was described by the Emperor in TIE Fighter as an insurgency: "Even now our capable forces lead by Darth Vader are striking back at the Rebel insurgents." And the Rebellion was a far more conventional guerilla force. Hit-and-run raids are significantly different than roadside bombs or constant civilian harassment in Iraq or Vietnam. The civilian populations of the Outer Rim seemed rather passive compared to during older attempts to impose Coreward rule (see Path of Destruction), most likely due to a combination of the damage done during the Clone Wars and the threat of Imperial reprisal for continued rebelliousness.

Do you have some reason to believe that the Rebels eschewed such tactics? Or that they were even a single cohesive group? Once more, the Empire used most of its military power to suppress uprisings. Your assertion that they only had to deal with hit-and-run raiders is nonsensical in light of that fact.

[TC Pilot]

Do you have some reason to believe that the Rebels eschewed such tactics?

There's a very distinct lack of documentation regarding Rebel terrorist activities (notable exceptions, like releasing convicted criminals into Coruscant, excluded), insurgent movements, etc. compared to what evidence there is of strictly "military" guerilla units and operations. That's not to say that did not happen, of course.

Or that they were even a single cohesive group?

We are talking about the same Rebel Alliance, aren't we?

Once more, the Empire used most of its military power to suppress uprisings.

Not really, though it depends what you mean by uprisings. According to the Rebel Alliance sourcebook, when several systems rebelled after the Declaration of Rebellion, "Imperial response was swift and harsh, and within weeks all the “Secession Worlds” were suppressed." Furthermore, "Particularly impressionable are the outlying systems, those not yet fully under the domination of the Empire. The Empire applies a lot of political pressure against these systems, using the threat of force to keep them in line." In Spectre of the Past, Lando comments that the majority of the Empire's forces were not spent fighting rebels, but keeping various groups from killing each other. The Empire's strategy revolved around threat of force, swift and brutal application of force when needed, and relying upon collaborationist regimes to oversee things on a plantetary basis. The Empire may not have been particularly popular in outlying regions, but few were stupid enough to throw their lot in with the Alliance, though many times the Rebels were just as unpopular, being seen as “pirates, criminals, and anarchists, intent upon
overthrowing the Empire for personal gain.” The fact the Rebel leaders blamed the beloved Emperor for most of the galaxy's ills certainly didn't help their cause.

[Darth Wong]

Do you have some reason to believe that the Rebels eschewed such tactics?

There's a very distinct lack of documentation regarding Rebel terrorist activities (notable exceptions, like releasing convicted criminals into Coruscant, excluded), insurgent movements, etc. compared to what evidence there is of strictly "military" guerilla units and operations. That's not to say that did not happen, of course.

Precisely; you are assuming that their tactics are limited to what we saw in the movies, when logically an insurgency spread across thousands of worlds will take many forms.

Or that they were even a single cohesive group?

We are talking about the same Rebel Alliance, aren't we?

Apparently we're not, since you seem to think that the visible elements of the Rebel Alliance you saw onscreen (or for that matter, the Rebel Alliance in its entirety) constituted all of the insurgent activity that the Empire had to deal with.

Once more, the Empire used most of its military power to suppress uprisings.

Not really, though it depends what you mean by uprisings. According to the Rebel Alliance sourcebook, when several systems rebelled after the Declaration of Rebellion, "Imperial response was swift and harsh, and within weeks all the “Secession Worlds” were suppressed." Furthermore, "Particularly impressionable are the outlying systems, those not yet fully under the domination of the Empire. The Empire applies a lot of political pressure against these systems, using the threat of force to keep them in line." In Spectre of the Past, Lando comments that the majority of the Empire's forces were not spent fighting rebels, but keeping various groups from killing each other. The Empire's strategy revolved around threat of force, swift and brutal application of force when needed, and relying upon collaborationist regimes to oversee things on a plantetary basis. The Empire may not have been particularly popular in outlying regions, but few were stupid enough to throw their lot in with the Alliance, though many times the Rebels were just as unpopular, being seen as “pirates, criminals, and anarchists, intent upon
overthrowing the Empire for personal gain.” The fact the Rebel leaders blamed the beloved Emperor for most of the galaxy's ills certainly didn't help their cause.

You have an extremely simplistic notion of counter-insurgency warfare (I imagine it must have been people like you who crafted America's plan for post-war occupation of Iraq). Who says it was necessarily a matter of joining the Rebel Alliance? Does it not occur to you that the Rebel Alliance might have been only a small fraction of what the Empire had to deal with?

[montypython]

Generally speaking it probably would be preferable to have a dedicated gendarmerie/paramilitary force for counterinsurgency work, in order to free up conventional forces for more standard operations.

Here's also a link about German counterinsurgency in the Balkans during WWII.

And another link on counterinsurgency practices.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Mike is right about the extent of rebellion and galactic unrest in the Galactic Empire. The resistance and uprising within the Empire took a number of forms: 1.) Resistance by internal forces within Empire to legitimate authority: i.e., Moff Governors losing favor at Court and their rivals using the Armed Forces of the Imperium to depose them, perhaps sponsorship of illegal or insurrectionary activities by Moff Governors or prefects etc., collaboration, unauthorized, or unlawful utilization of Armed Forces by rogue or "loose cannon" commanding officers, etc. Goroth: Slave of the Empire is merely one source that documents how the strategic reserves and commands of the Armed Forces were utilized in concert with the precepts of Palpatinism-Tarkinism (the Tarkin Doctrine, or rule through fear of force); the Moff Governor of the Tri-Nebular Sector was neutralized by a strategic force which logically must be capable of successfully overcoming a Sector Group and which was capable of detaching from its own Order of Battle, the core of a new Sector Group to replace the forces of the deposed Moff. TIE Fighter portrays how commanding officers in the Imperial Navy in some incidents collaborated with the Rebellion (ADM Harkov), or planned coup attempts (GADM Zaarin) - recalling that the Empire is a militaristic dictatorship and is vulnerable to much the same political tendencies as familiar examples in our world.

2.) Civil war within, or general war amongst polities belonging to the Empire, and resistance by member states to the authority of Coruscant. TIE Fighter provides more examples of intervention by the Armed Forces of the Imperium in polities which fought long-held rivalries amongst each other, even polities which previously had existed outside the Empire. Specter of the Past features General (ret.) Lando Calrissian discussing the countless inter-state, inter-species feuds which the "Emperor's New Order thoughtlessly interrupted" and mused that it was only after the Empire had been defeated did the heroes of Endor appreciate how much of the Empire's attention had been devoted to keeping such tendencies suppressed, not directed against the Rebellion. Also included are the so-called "Seperatist holdouts" described in ROTS ICS and the "Succession Worlds" aligned with the Rebellion - these must in most cases refer to member states and polities within the Empire which attempted to declare independence or neutrality.

What makes the rebel Alliance to Restore the Republic peculiar is that it was the only counterrevolutionary movement which represented pan-galactic resistance to the Empire - it fully intended to compete with the Imperial State for the seat of power over the whole galaxy. Contrastingly, many movements and uprisings fought merely for independence or political goals for their region, species, interest group, or home state. The rebel Alliance transcended all these parochial conflicts with general political aims, and not only was it fully represented throughout the galaxy, but its original sponsors were three Great Powers from the Core (Great Powers referring here to the small number of very powerful member states which wielded political influence, patronage, and powers of intervention which were distantly but capably comparable to the central government itself; these states have their own networks of colonies and "overseas" territories - Rothana is a good example with respect to Kuat -, and their own space navies). Alderaan, Chandrilla, and Corellia were the original members of the Corellian Treaty Organization. It also fully bridged the gap between the two major classes of opposition to the Imperial State listed above: it drew much membership, war materiel, finances, and political legitimacy from the sponsorship, overt or otherwise, from the member worlds; also it drew many of its personnel, officer corps, and materiel (all especially after Endor) from collaborative forces within the Imperial State.

However, the rebel Alliance was not the only insurgent group - there were fully-fledged terrorists, seperatists, and non-aligned rebels. This is discounting the fact that there were still some species and polities which were not fully incorporated into the Galactic Empire, be they in previously ignored inner regions (such as the Yevetha), previously abandoned fringe territories (Wild Space), or beyond the Rim such as the Chiss and Nagai. Internal stability and control was the primary responsibility of the Armed Forces, but there was a need for more conventional military responsibilities including defense from external threats (as mentioned in ROTS ICS).

[PainRack]

For the sake of the debate, has there been any study on how the German troops responded to the insurgencies they faced during the war? Did they have the same problem as the USA and others do nowadays? Can sheer brutal discipline offset some of the morale issues that soon become apparent in counterinsurgency warfare? The Heer executed thousands for desertion and similar crimes, but was that an effective deterrent, or did it just compound their difficulties?

The British claimed yes during WW2, but from The War on Nerves, the author suggest otherwise.