Ukraine to join NATO

[Coyote]

This one is real. MSNBC

Bush: U.S. supports Ukraine's bid to join NATO
In Kiev, he declares Russia won’t have a say at alliance meeting next week.



updated 3:27 a.m. MT, Tues., April. 1, 2008
KIEV, Ukraine - President Bush said Tuesday he will work "as hard as I can" to help Ukraine join NATO and declared that Russia will not be able to veto former Soviet states joining the transatlantic military alliance.

"Your nation has made a bold decision and the United States strongly supports your request," Bush told Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko after talks at the Presidential Secretariat here.

Bush praised Ukraine's democratic and military reforms, and noted that Ukraine "is the only non-NATO nation supporting every NATO mission."


Ukraine has sent troops to Afghanistan, Kosovo and Iraq. He also portrayed the decision as one that is "in the interests of our organization."

The president's brief visit to Kiev was meant to be a show of support for the country's NATO ambitions ahead of the alliance's summit later this week in Bucharest, Romania.

Ukraine is hoping NATO members will vote to give it a so-called membership action plan, which outlines what a country needs to do to join and is a precursor to a membership invitation. Georgia also wants the same treatment.

"In Bucharest this week, I will continue to make America's position clear: We support MAP for Ukraine and Georgia," Bush said. "My stop here should be a clear signal to everybody that I mean what I say: It's in our interest for Ukraine to join."

Said Yushchenko: "I am sure that we will receive a positive signal in Bucharest and that's the spirit that we are going there with."

Bush and Yushchenko met with reporters in a narrow room with a high ceiling decorated with ornate molding. The two leaders sat at a low credenza behind a wide arrangement of yellow and red roses and other flowers spread along the floor.

Ukraine had long flirted with joining NATO, but it started taking real steps toward meeting the alliance’s military and political standards only after Yushchenko became president in the wake of the 2004 street protests, called the Orange Revolution.

Since then, Ukraine has gained a vibrant opposition, a robust media and has held a series of clean elections. It has also set out to modernize its Soviet-style military, including creating an all-volunteer army and changing troop deployment and training to meet NATO standards. Kiev abandoned customs and practices that date to Soviet and even Czarist Russia times, such as using soldiers for kitchen duty and outfitting them in cumbersome footwear. It also sought to prove itself by deploying troops to Iraq in 2003-2005 and sending peacekeepers to Kosovo and Lebanon.

Remaining problems, however, range from rampant corruption to constant political turmoil, which has caused a stream of government shake-ups and early elections over the past years.

I'd be surprised; really, this would be a poke in the eye of the Russians, and would go a long way towards fueling Russian paranoia (sorry, Stas) about "Western Encroachment/Encirclement". Compared to this, bomber fly-overs of Guam is small potatoes.

People also forget that the Cuban Missile Crisis was actually a reaction to the US placing missiles on Turkish soil, which at the time was right on the Soviet frontier.

OTOH, this would be great for the European Union and NATO-- seriously. As well as the Ukraine. The benefits for both are enormous-- provided that NATO membership eventually dovetails into EU membership as well (not guaranteed, but frequently implied).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Do we get Ukrainian separatism as part of the deal?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Oh well, poor Russia, as if I gave a shit. (No offense Stas, I like personally.)

[The Duchess of Zeon]

So, are we going to fight a nuclear war with Russia when the Crimean finally breaks free? This is simply the most idiotic thing possible. Fuck Bush.

[cosmicalstorm]

I can imagine Putin snapping the neck of the poor messenger who brought this piece of news to his mountain lair

[Illuminatus Primus]

The entangling aspect of the alliance is distressing; feels too World War I-esque. I don't feel bad for Russia, but I certainly as shit don't want to go to war over centuries old, Russian national-political issues. Ukraine was not even a distinct nation a hundred and fifty years ago.

[Shroom Man 777]

For the uneducated moron who has difficulty telling the... Baltic states apart, what are relations between Ukraine and Russia? As far as I know, Russia was trying to influence Ukraine by putting pro-Russia politicians in and one of those anti-Russian presidential candidates got poisoned and ended up looking like the elephant man, but he didn't die. And there was that deal with Russia being a dick about those oil/gas pipelines (not just to Ukraine, but to the EU as well).

So, things aren't exactly fluffy between these former Warsaw Pact buddies?

[MKSheppard]

This is simply the most idiotic thing possible. Fuck Bush.

Nah. We then ask Russia to join NATO in the next 5 years.

[K. A. Pital]

"Paranoia". As far as I know, there have been protests in Ukraine against entering NATO and most people there do not support it.

The benefits for both are enormous

Like sending soldiers into Iraq or anywhere else Uncle Sam calls? That's the "benefit" of cowtowing to NATO and the US?

But let me just point out what is fucking wrong with the article:

Since then, Ukraine has gained a vibrant opposition, a robust media and has held a series of clean elections.

"Robust" media? "Clean" elections? The country is in a perpetual political crisis, the parliament took one fucking law in 100 days of operation. A "series" of clean elections my ass, how about a powerplay between Yushenko, Yanuk and Timoshenko? Those three just want to tear apart the little that is left from Ukraine's industrial fund and "re-privatize" it.

Bush praised Ukraine's democratic and military reforms

Perhaps Bush will also praise the outlawing of Russian language in legal documents and movies (moving a large part of Ukrainian territories to protest), the hailing of old Nazi collaborators, radical nationalists and other similar trash, which should not even appear on the political field, and perhaps this:

Modern Anti-Russian poster in Lviv, Western Ukraine, issued by the ultra-radical nationalist political party. The Ukrainian text reads: "Remember! Russian mat turns you into a Moskal. In Russia, they do not use profanity for cursing, they use profanity for speaking." The usage of the term Moskal in Ukraine in modern context is an ethnic slur referring to the Russians in general.

People also forget that the Cuban Missile Crisis was actually a reaction to the US placing missiles on Turkish soil

"People forget"? You mean Americans I guess. The rest of the world more or less knows that. Maybe not the extent of US nuclear superiority, but something still.

[Xenophobe3691]

There was also that huge famine back in the '30s, and Ukraine is in the south. Nowhere near the Baltic

[cosmicalstorm]

That place has been a mess ever since the Mongols decided to stop by for a cup of tea.

[K. A. Pital]

And there was that deal with Russia being a dick about those oil/gas pipelines (not just to Ukraine, but to the EU as well).

You mean we can't raise oil and gas prices as we want? Suuure. The only thing we did we raised the price.

Ukraine objected. Big deal.

One of the lesser known facts: former Soviet republic of Ukraine has been egregiously corrupt in servicing European gas transit - there were constant reports for gas stealing perpetually for all the 20 years since it became independent.

I understand Russia has been a dick - just like all oil&gas supplying nations are to oil&gas consuming nations - but Ukraine has been stealing that gas for fuck's sake, and we did nothing illegal by price gouging. That's only capitalism for you, former Soviet buddies.

So, things aren't exactly fluffy between these former Warsaw Pact buddies?

We used to be a single nation. Surprisingly, most of Ukraine holds our president in higher regard than their own, and also supports a union with Russia. But the government has been elected, is thoroughly anti-Russian and nationalistic; it comes from the heavily nationalist Ukraine West.

[Big Phil]

This is simply the most idiotic thing possible. Fuck Bush.

Nah. We then ask Russia to join NATO in the next 5 years.

Russia should have been invited to join NATO ten years ago - it might have prevented the last decade of hard feelings, thanks to Commander in Chimp's "looking into Putin's soul."

[CJvR]

People also forget that the Cuban Missile Crisis was actually a reaction to the US placing missiles on Turkish soil, which at the time was right on the Soviet frontier.

Huh? IIRC those had been there a long time rather than a recent development and was to be withdrawn shortly when the Cuban situation poped up.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

People also forget that the Cuban Missile Crisis was actually a reaction to the US placing missiles on Turkish soil, which at the time was right on the Soviet frontier.

Huh? IIRC those had been there a long time rather than a recent development and was to be withdrawn shortly when the Cuban situation poped up.

In a typical example of Soviet information control, Khruschev was not told about them until, while at some beach resort in the Crimean, he was told by one of his accompanying aides that the Americanskis had IRBMs pointing at him from the other side of the Black Sea.

[K. A. Pital]

IIRC those had been there a long time rather than a recent development

The US supremacy was getting obscene in general and Soviet analytics were looking for a way to jump over the gap. Turkey installations made them think a little faster... and take Cuba into the equation.

[Coyote]

"Paranoia". As far as I know, there have been protests in Ukraine against entering NATO and most people there do not support it.

Well, that was why I put "paranoia" in quotation marks. On the one hand, Russia has been invaded again and again since the earliest history, so there is an understandable concern about foreigners getting too close. On the other hand, sometimes the Russian reaction seems a little, well, over the top.

The benefits for both are enormous

Like sending soldiers into Iraq or anywhere else Uncle Sam calls? That's the "benefit" of cowtowing to NATO and the US?

Actually, no, the benefits are for Europe and the Ukraine. Europe gets a huge manpower boost, a large and professional military, and access to industry such as Antonov, KRaZ, and others (such as the rocketry)... Ukraine would get a stable currency, and investment in infrastructure...

The EU economy keeps growing, and one reason is that when it looks like the Euro is going to top out, they bring in some more small states that have nowehere to go (economically) but up; they then start to invest and while the initial entry into the pool lowers the bar for economic performance, it also raises the economic potential to greater heights. So the Euro economy will grow more. For some in the EU, bringing in a huge Orthodox Christian state like the Ukraine would dwarf the entry of Muslim Turkey. There's appeal to that for the nationalists in Europe.

I'll let you in on my personal secret: eventually, the USA can dissolve its tie with NATO and NATO can be a European thing, maybe Canada will stay in. Adding a large pool of manpower like Ukraine as well as the Turks would mean that Europe doesn't need us any more and we can go our seperate ways-- and one of those reasons will be what you said: NATO is too often seen as a US puppet. With the Ukraine, Europe can tell Uncle Sam to get stuffed if they so choose. And during Yugoslavia, NATO was also seen as anti-Slav in general... so again, this would go a long way towards correcting that image.


Ukraine in NATO benefits Europe, and neither the US nor the Russians.

[HemlockGrey]

Huh? IIRC those had been there a long time rather than a recent development and was to be withdrawn shortly when the Cuban situation poped up.

The Cuban missiles were more likely a powerplay to put the squeeze on Berlin.

Of course Russia is pissed about this, but whatever. The Russian state has always been aggressive and expansionist and will continue to be aggressive and expansionist until it recognizes that it is permanently a second-rate power. The sooner that happens the better.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Huh? IIRC those had been there a long time rather than a recent development and was to be withdrawn shortly when the Cuban situation poped up.

The Cuban missiles were more likely a powerplay to put the squeeze on Berlin.

Of course Russia is pissed about this, but whatever. The Russian state has always been aggressive and expansionist and will continue to be aggressive and expansionist until it recognizes that it is permanently a second-rate power. The sooner that happens the better.

The same could be said of the United States, only this time, they are too interventionist.

[Omega18]

We used to be a single nation. Surprisingly, most of Ukraine holds our president in higher regard than their own, and also supports a union with Russia.

I'm sorry but this is very clearly non-sense, (other than the used to be a single nation part) especially for the second part.

The reality is most of the Ukraine does not want a union with Russia and actually strongly opposse it, its merely a minority is the eastern part of the Ukraine which are for that.

Actually joining NATO may be another issue, but the reality is a large portion of the Ukrainian population doesn't like Russia much.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Talk about April Fools!

[K. A. Pital]

The Russian state has always been aggressive and expansionist and will continue to be aggressive and expansionist until it recognizes that it is permanently a second-rate power. The sooner that happens the better.

You better shove that hypocrisy right down your fucking ass. Of course Russia always was expansionist (which nation did we actually attack in the recent years?) and of course Russia will always be expansionist. And of course the best cure is to hammer into those fucked Russians that they're second-rate power, look how well that shit worked with Germany in WWI! Yeah! Let your anti-Russian wankfest roll on, moron.

[K. A. Pital]

We used to be a single nation. Surprisingly, most of Ukraine holds our president in higher regard than their own, and also supports a union with Russia.

I'm sorry but this is very clearly non-sense, (other than the used to be a single nation part) especially for the second part.

Hey fucker, how about READING something on the subject before calling something that has been determined quite well by opinion polls, idiot?

Ukrainian polling agency R&B Group ran a poll called "Eurasian monitor" which polled 5,5 thousand Ukrainians all over the country, it was a joint action with polling agencies VTSIOM and TSIRKON. The people of Ukraine voiced their thoughts on the state's politics.

As the poll shows, only 30% of Ukrainians can say they're content with their life. 66% evaluate their own situations with uncontent, and among them as many as 40% say that they're in a miserable situation.

The question "Unification with which state would bring the most use to Ukraine?" indicated that Russia is the likely ally - 57% percent have answered "Russia". The question "In which country would you like to live?" the most popular answer was a united state of Russia, Ukraine, Belorus and Kazakhstan. In such a state, 54% are willing to live.

This question has shown the most rapid change of opinions among Ukrainians. During this year, the number of Ukrainians who want to live in the EU dropped from 30% to 8%, while the number of those who want to live in the Union of four CIS countries rose from 26% to 54%.

The reality is most of the Ukraine does not want a union with Russia and actually strongly opposse it, its merely a minority is the eastern part of the Ukraine which are for that.

Show me, fucktard. "Minority" in the Eastern part? Like, half of Ukraine's population? "Minority"? You asswipe, how about showing a public poll results to prove your opinion?

Actually joining NATO may be another issue, but the reality is a large portion of the Ukrainian population doesn't like Russia much.

"A large portion" does not mean majority, so let me spell it out very clearly - fuck you and your unsourced statements.

[K. A. Pital]

That's VSTIOM/TSIRKON's 2006 data, Omega18. So you may not bother with replies, the opinion polls are recent enough.

Article in question, run through Google Trans for results.

[K. A. Pital]

On the other hand, sometimes the Russian reaction seems a little, well, over the top.

Hmm, what has Russia done "over the top" whilst reacting to Ukraine's NATO movements? "Voicing concerns" - the diplo-speak for something that you don't like, and just say "I don't like it" in diplomatic - is not an "over the top" reaction, isn't it?

Explaning that Ukraine, as a NATO member, will be counted as a potential adversary and be targeted by SNFs accordingly, that's "over the top"? Nuclear countries target every potential adversary and NATO has been a longtime adversary of Russia. Russia is still listed as an adversarial nation by US politicians. We don't have any reason NOT to target NATO states.