Clinton vows to go down on Shep

[CmdrWilkens]

Why would women 'automatically' vote for Hillary? I mean, is it just some pathetic identification thing, where they feel like 'they' are being elected because they're 'both women'? It seems strange to me that people often talk about women just mindlessly supporting Hillary, regardless of what she says and does, just because she's a woman.

At least in Obama's case you can say minorities vote for him because he actually seems to give a shit about their issues, and he apparently brings more of them out to vote.

It does come down to some women (wellsome Democratic women, the conservative type still won't vote for her in the general election) feeling that this is their Title IX big time deal. Now obviously it is an oversimplification to say all of them feel this way but my sister, being her usual foolish self, put it bluntly to me when we talked about this when she said "Every time I think of voting for Obama my ovaries cringe." I don't agree with and I think its a moronic reason to vote but I can't help folks who think that way.

That said the media narrative isn't helping considering that the tendency to make everything about demographics and not issues means a glut of stories abotu how "conflicted" black women are. Oddly enough there are not stories about how "conflicted" white men are but thats how the American media narrative plays out.

[Darth Wong]

I don't think women would be nearly as enthusiastic for Hillary if Bill O'Reilly's "white Christian male power structure" were not so damnably impervious to challenge in America. They're thinking that this is an historic opportunity because the aforementioned WCM power structure is at a remarkable ebb thanks to its stupendous mismanagement of the country, its finances, and its foreign relations. This, as they say, is the time to strike.

So they fear that if they don't win this opportunity, they won't get another chance for a long time, and in a country which couldn't even pass the ERA, that may in fact be true. Add to that the fact that conservative Democrats (a group which many believe to be nonexistent, but still exists) would much rather see a white woman in the White House than a black man.

[Galvatron]

Add to that the fact that conservative Democrats (a group which many believe to be nonexistent, but still exists) would much rather see a white woman in the White House than a black man.

That's my grandma. Every now and again, she'll revert to the vocabulary she was raised with and refer to a black man as a "nigra." She's a "typical white woman" like Obama's mother: she fears the mandigo's girth.

[Stark]

I can totally see that, but it's the 'automatic' thing that gets me. I'm familiar with single-issue voting (it kept us with the same Prime Minister for a decade), but electing someone with no other positive qualities but 'ovaries' just to break a power structure seems crazy.

I'm not sure how US racism works, but I'd have thought putting any non-white person would help this issue anyway: Obama is just as not-WCM as Hillary, after all.

[Fleet Admiral JD]

Darth Wong--where were these clips from the Daily Show? I'd like to see the orchestrated laughter things. Certainly sound sinteresting.

[Darth Wong]

I can totally see that, but it's the 'automatic' thing that gets me. I'm familiar with single-issue voting (it kept us with the same Prime Minister for a decade), but electing someone with no other positive qualities but 'ovaries' just to break a power structure seems crazy.

I'm not sure how US racism works, but I'd have thought putting any non-white person would help this issue anyway: Obama is just as not-WCM as Hillary, after all.

There are a lot of people in America who think that white Christian females are an acceptable second choice after white Christian males, but they're God-fearing Amur'cans and they don't want no damned towelhead niggers in the White House.

[Galvatron]

Well, there are also those people who consider a vote for Hillary to be a vote for Bill. That appeals to some. And I'll admit it'd appeal to me if I Obama weren't such a breath of fresh air.

I no longer feel like it's a choice between two evils.

[Darth Wong]

Add to that the fact that conservative Democrats (a group which many believe to be nonexistent, but still exists) would much rather see a white woman in the White House than a black man.

That's my grandma. Every now and again, she'll revert to the vocabulary she was raised with and refer to a black man as a "nigra." She's a "typical white woman" like Obama's mother: she fears the mandigo's girth.

And the more liberal white women crave the Mandingo's girth

On a related note, some of Rebecca's favourite porn stars are Shane Diesel, Jack Napier, Sledge, and Jake Steed. If I were an insecure man, I'd be concerned.

[Galvatron]

Add to that the fact that conservative Democrats (a group which many believe to be nonexistent, but still exists) would much rather see a white woman in the White House than a black man.

That's my grandma. Every now and again, she'll revert to the vocabulary she was raised with and refer to a black man as a "nigra." She's a "typical white woman" like Obama's mother: she fears the mandigo's girth.

And the more liberal white women crave the Mandingo's girth

On a related note, some of Rebecca's favourite porn stars are Shane Diesel, Jack Napier, Sledge, and Jake Steed. If I were an insecure man, I'd be concerned.

What does it say about me that virtually everything remidns me of a movie clip or quote, Dream On-style?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=GN-NexZUD7I

[Big Phil]

I've heard many times, from various sources, that many people who support Hillary are extremely fanatical...more so than Hillary herself...and many have said they simply will NOT vote for Obama under any circumstances.

You just described my grandmother. She told me yesterday that she's going to hold her nose and vote for McCain. Why? Because Obama's "a liar and a Muslim."

That's right, she's fallen for the Muslim Manchurian Candidate smear hook, line and sinker.

As several have already said in this thread, there is an element of the Democratic party that won't vote for a black man no matter what. That element includes blue collar union Democrats, as well as white collar, "black people need to sit down, shut up, and be thankful for what we give them" Democrats.

[Gigaliel]

Darth Wong--where were these clips from the Daily Show? I'd like to see the orchestrated laughter things. Certainly sound sinteresting.

This thing?

It's fairly disturbing and identical. Anywho, the primary annoyance I've received from the Hillary campaign is (as it is for many) the media coverage.

For example, on a debate show I flicked to for some reason, the DNC primary was going back and forth. The issue was thus: "Hillary, mathematically, cannot the win popular vote. She should concede." vs. "What's the big deal if we do hold all the primaries, then? Obama should have nothing to fear." This of course, missing the broader picture.

The other one was that the original Michigan and Florida results should be used because "the DNC made a commitment to the voters" and that doing it again leads to voter disenfranchisement. Irrelevant elections becoming valid is clearly voter enfranchisement. Versus, say, confusing.

It's not that these are crafty arguments. It's just they get used over and over like everyone gets memos telling them what to say. It's like watching chatbots. It's like that most of the time, of course, but sometimes it's hard to fathom that they actual believe what they're saying.

[Glocksman]

I've heard many times, from various sources, that many people who support Hillary are extremely fanatical...more so than Hillary herself...and many have said they simply will NOT vote for Obama under any circumstances.

You just described my grandmother. She told me yesterday that she's going to hold her nose and vote for McCain. Why? Because Obama's "a liar and a Muslim."

That's right, she's fallen for the Muslim Manchurian Candidate smear hook, line and sinker.

As several have already said in this thread, there is an element of the Democratic party that won't vote for a black man no matter what. That element includes blue collar union Democrats, as well as white collar, "black people need to sit down, shut up, and be thankful for what we give them" Democrats.

My union (UNITE HERE) endorsed Obama several weeks ago, and our membership is heavily female and minority.
In fact, I'm a minority in my workplace.

Even so, I've run into the 'she's a woman so we must support her' among quite a few women at work.

This blue collar union member is cautiously optimistic about Obama despite my misgivings with him on gun rights and a few other issues.
Whereas I'm downright depressed over McCain and practically suicidal* over HRC.


*It's hyperbole, so don't call my local suicide hotline, OK?

[CmdrWilkens]

Clinton is basically the walking proof of the media narrative being somewhat self-fulfilling. If there was not a consistent narrative that she is successful amongst unionhouseholds then long ago the narrative would have shifted to Obama gaining consistent union endorsements. It comes down to a lot of folks vote the way their "group", whatever they define it to be whether by race gender, religion, union identity, income, etc, because they haven't been paying attention. People who approach elections late tend to go the way their "group" is perceived as going because they figure folks like them must already have found something worthwhile about a paticular candidate. Now this obviously has more of an effect on late-deciders (paticulalry in such a heavily news saturated race as this) but it isn't the whole story it is enough to shift demographics enough to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

[Darth Wong]

At this point, why do we still call it a "narrative" instead of a lie?

A narrative is normally a commentary laid on top of a story which is at least vaguely connected to the content of the story. I don't believe that the "media narrative" has been even vaguely associated with the truth for quite some time. They're selling pure fiction now in order to keep their ratings up.

[Starglider]

Even so, I've run into the 'she's a woman so we must support her' among quite a few women at work.

I'd take the line 'Hillary has proved that women can be realistic, competitive presidential candidates. That's great, because it means that we should be seeing a lot more women in the next presidential contests - unless of course we vote in a disaster-in-the-making who single-handedly discredits the notion of a female president for the next two decades. Women don't need affirmative action, we can afford to wait for a good female candidate before voting her into the presidency.'

Of course it probably wouldn't work. Too many syllables to be a soundbite.

[Big Phil]

Even so, I've run into the 'she's a woman so we must support her' among quite a few women at work.

I'd take the line 'Hillary has proved that women can be realistic, competitive presidential candidates. That's great, because it means that we should be seeing a lot more women in the next presidential contests - unless of course we vote in a disaster-in-the-making who single-handedly discredits the notion of a female president for the next two decades. Women don't need affirmative action, we can afford to wait for a good female candidate before voting her into the presidency.'

Of course it probably wouldn't work. Too many syllables to be a soundbite.

If Condoleeza Rice were the Republican nominee for president - in spite of her lack of qualifications, shit-poor critical thinking, and the absolute debacle of the last seven years - she'd probably win. She's a Republican, she's a woman, and she's black. Democrats would forgive her, women would vote for her, black people would vote for her, and Republicans do what their rulers tell them, so they'd vote for her too. Thank the gods she's not running.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If Condoleeza Rice were the Republican nominee for president - in spite of her lack of qualifications, shit-poor critical thinking, and the absolute debacle of the last seven years - she'd probably win. She's a Republican, she's a woman, and she's black. Democrats would forgive her, women would vote for her, black people would vote for her, and Republicans do what their rulers tell them, so they'd vote for her too. Thank the gods she's not running.

She can still be McCain's running mate though.

[CmdrWilkens]

At this point, why do we still call it a "narrative" instead of a lie?

A narrative is normally a commentary laid on top of a story which is at least vaguely connected to the content of the story. I don't believe that the "media narrative" has been even vaguely associated with the truth for quite some time. They're selling pure fiction now in order to keep their ratings up.

The end result is that the 'narrative" lasted so long that there is some truth for them to be able to continue to spout it. Clinton won Union-member households in the March 4th contest by a pretty decent margin. Now the fact that she didn't win them handily (or at all) pretty much the entire month of February doesn't matter to the future news coverage because she finally managed to do it. Its one of the things which worries me about Pennslyvannia is that no matter how little her chances are when she does win by say 7 or 8% and 5 or 6 delegates then some idiots in the media are going to talk about a 'clinton comeback" or "Obama can't close" because the modern American media has the attention span of ADHD ridden mayflies.

Is it a lie to talk about Clinton strength in Union households? Right now it isn't because she won them in the last contests held and she is leading them now (though not by any greater margin than her overall margin). At the same time if any tlaking head bothered to actually look at the results and draw reasonable conclusions they would see a fanatic core of pro-Clinton folks (old school centrists and rascists who remember the good ol' days of Bill) and a much larger electorate which just hasn't yet gotten comfortable with Obama. In the end the only reason not to call it a lie is that it is much more akin to reasearching via-Wiki: you can get answers but they are skin deep at best.