[40k] Questions regarding the Warp/Souls

[Zablorg]

I'm getting a bit confused at the moment regarding the relationship between the warp and souls. So far what I've gathered is:

Souls are "observable" in the warp by daemons.

Souls exist in the materium.

Souls are a warp manifestation of one's sentience.


But I'm still a bit confused on the more vague points, including:

What happens to non-believers of Chaos once they die?

The effect of an "open mind" on the warp and daemons.

And some questions regarding the Eldar's soulstones. According to Lexicanum (a fairly detailed Warhammer wiki) "The Thirst" affects only Dark Eldar because their souls are not sealed in soulstones. But in many other articles it describes the soulstone as capturing the soul upon the moment of death. If the latter is the case, why aren't their souls being leeched?

Any explanations would be very appreciated.

[Ford Prefect]

The Dark Eldar bribe Slaanesh with other souls, as I understand it, to stop it from eating them.

[Xon]

Souls are a warp manifestation of one's sentience.

Wrong. A warp soul is the manifestation of one's emotions.

Which is why the warp is so fucked up.

[Zablorg]

Souls are a warp manifestation of one's sentience.

Wrong. A warp soul is the manifestation of one's emotions.

Which is why the warp is so fucked up.

I thought it was sort of both. I heard that non-sentients don't have a presence?

[Xon]

It is more of a case non-sentients do not have as strong emotions as sentients.

Also when normal humans die, thier warp soul simply disperses. There isn't enough 'there' to maintain coherence without outside help(say a daemon taking a soul as a chew toy).

As for an "open mind" and the warp, it is more of a case of uncontrolled exposure to the Warp results in Warp energies "sticking" to physical objects. A closed or an open mind doesnt matter one fucking bit once a daemon can start fucking with your basic structure. The Warp is somewhat viral in how it's influence spreads, if no one used the Warp for FTL and didnt have any dirty Warp witches, they would be practically untouchable to Chaos corruption. Like say how the Necrons are.

It is just a case of a closed fanatic is more likely to burn the thing in fire than get close to it. Not that that helps anyone who gets bathed in Warp energies by Chaos followers and doesnt know how to protect themselves.

[Imperial Overlord]

Non sentients have a weak presence because they don't have mental activity on the same scale as big brained tool users. A warp soul is the impression of a mind on the warp it is strong emotions that leave the strongest impressions (with non sentients, pretty much the only impression). So emotion and sentience are the keys.

[Xon]

It should be pointed out that emotion and sentience only effect the Warp if there is a connection to the Warp. The nature of the connection really isnt explained well in the fluff.

The Tau are just as intelligent and emotional as humans going via fluff, but they have even less Warp Presense than a WH40K baseline human.

The C'Tan are hyper-intelligent sentients, but they dont have an observable Warp presense. Similar deal with the Necron and thier fleshy origins.

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't recall anything stating that a human soul simply disperses on death. It would be merciful if that did happen, instead of being snapped up by warp predators or still retaining some personality when absorbed by a god. We know that eldar (poor bastards) and some human psykers' souls retain coherency after death.


As far as I know, don't know how little warp presence the necrontyr had. Like the tau they were a non-psychic race, but we can't say they had more or less of a warp presence than they did.

[Peptuck]

I don't recall anything stating that a human soul simply disperses on death. It would be merciful if that did happen, instead of being snapped up by warp predators or still retaining some personality when absorbed by a god. We know that eldar (poor bastards) and some human psykers' souls retain coherency after death.

The 4th edition Eldar Codex, IIRC, explains that human souls don't retain sufficient coherency in the Warp to remain self-aware when they die. I can dig up the page number and exact quote if you want.

Also, isn't it stated that the souls of anyone who worships the Emperor goes to his warp presence rather than simply dispersing on death? I know that's one of the primary beliefs of the Imperial Cult....

[Peptuck]

I don't recall anything stating that a human soul simply disperses on death. It would be merciful if that did happen, instead of being snapped up by warp predators or still retaining some personality when absorbed by a god. We know that eldar (poor bastards) and some human psykers' souls retain coherency after death.

The 4th edition Eldar Codex, IIRC, explains that human souls don't retain sufficient coherency in the Warp to remain self-aware when they die. I can dig up the page number and exact quote if you want.

Got it. Page 14 of the 4th edition Eldar Codex.

If an Eldar's spirit is not captured by his waystone, it is sucked into the nightmarish depths of the Warp. For a Human such a fate means nothing, for virtually no Human's mind is strong enough to retain a sense of consciousness after death - the psychic energy of a Human mind being paltry compared to that of an Eldar.

[white_rabbit]

Take a piece of paper, sprinkle some iron filings over it, run some magnets underneath.

Reasonable facimile of a"souls"analogy.

What happens to non-believers of Chaos once they die?

Orkish mythology and belief holds that their souls go back to Gork and Mork and are vomited back up into another body.

Eldar souls get eaten, Slaanesh claims the souls of the Eldar, but they are very tasty in general.

As has been indicated, anyone elses would appear to either vanish into the Aether, or get absorbed by a specific deity.

The Inquisition War books indicate that the Emperor does actually receive the souls of believers, either as the Starchild or perhaps representative of the other "benevolent" powers occasionally mentioned.

The Tau probably go "poof", who knows if any of the myriad alien races actually have their own Gods, or if they areworshipping aspects of existing entities.

You don't have to worship chaos for your soul to be fed upon by daemons upon your death.

And some questions regarding the Eldar's soulstones. According to Lexicanum (a fairly detailed Warhammer wiki) "The Thirst" affects only Dark Eldar because their souls are not sealed in soulstones. But in many other articles it describes the soulstone as capturing the soul upon the moment of death. If the latter is the case, why aren't their souls being leeched?

Eldar "soulstones" , like other aspects of eldar technology, appear to have a warding effect as far at the warp goes. The Wraithbone/psychoplastic construction of the precursor craftworlds prevented their inhabitants from being terminally affected by the Falls various shockwaves, Dreamstones/Soulstones prevent/shield against mental/spiritual attack by chaotic influences. "solid" webway structures generate warp proof shielding etc.

Eldar souls are captured upon death, but they always wear them otherwise, in Farseer its mentioned that they are sometimes fused to the flesh of younger Eldar to prevent them from being misplaced, or to emphasise the importance of the stone.

I think the draining effects of the thirst are an effect unique to the Dark Eldar in that they have not developed the ritualistic and disciplined social structure that the Craftworlders have, and refuse to use, or cannot reproduce the psychoactive materials required to shield themselves. (murdering and torturing psykers probably didn't help!) Add that to Slaanesh literally consuming their entire pantheon, and She's got a nasty shortcut to their souls!

[Lonestar]

The Inquisition War books indicate that the Emperor does actually receive the souls of believers, either as the Starchild or perhaps representative of the other "benevolent" powers occasionally mentioned.

It's kinda cheesed me off that we've never found out who the other "Divine Powers" are(There was a Battle Sister Ghost in one of the Guant's Ghosts novels who seemed to worship the GEoM by referred to other Divine Powers. I think the one where St. Sabbat returns.).

[Imperial Overlord]

Some human psykers souls do retain cohesiveness after death (Realms of Chaos, Inquisition War) although the eldar quote certainly establishes that ordinary humans don't. Thank you.

[Bedlam]

The Inquisition War books indicate that the Emperor does actually receive the souls of believers, either as the Starchild or perhaps representative of the other "benevolent" powers occasionally mentioned.

It's kinda cheesed me off that we've never found out who the other "Divine Powers" are(There was a Battle Sister Ghost in one of the Guant's Ghosts novels who seemed to worship the GEoM by referred to other Divine Powers. I think the one where St. Sabbat returns.).

I think that might refer to a sort of panthion of imperial saints such as Saint Sabbat and some of the Primarchs. They might be prayed to in the same was a some Christians pray to the Virgin Mary or various saints. Dont know if they actually have any effect beyond being conduits to the Emperor.

The Inquisition Wars suggests that the Emperors warp presence is fragmenting so it might be that some of the saints or other powers are sub fragments of the Emperor.

[andrewgpaul]

I tend to think of them as being the Emperor's daemons; His equivalent of Bloodthirsters of Lords of Change. Or possibly a better fit would be a Daemon Prince.

[NecronLord]

Other Divine powers? Why, they're the gods, by whose will the Emperor is Master of Man.

[Peptuck]

Well,w e definitely know that the Emperor has angels he sends out; Hlaine Larkin encountered one, and though that short story leads one to conclude at first that she was just a symptom of his madness, the cloth that he used to brace his gun had to have come from somewhere.

[Chris OFarrell]

Not to mention 'Zealot' Zane in Execution Hour/Shadow Point who was guided by an Angel of the Emperor.

[Guardsman Bass]

Some human psykers souls do retain cohesiveness after death (Realms of Chaos, Inquisition War) although the eldar quote certainly establishes that ordinary humans don't. Thank you.

I pity the poor psyker bastards. Can a warp soul that retains consciousness fend off demon attack by itself in the Warp, or is it pretty much an open buffet for demons if said warp soul doesn't get snapped up by a god?

[Imperial Overlord]

I pity the poor psyker bastards. Can a warp soul that retains consciousness fend off demon attack by itself in the Warp, or is it pretty much an open buffet for demons if said warp soul doesn't get snapped up by a god?

Since the shamans of Earth's prehistory jointly decided to reincarnate as the Emperor because their warp souls were getting snacked on instead of reincarnating, I would say the likely result is daemon chow. Depends on the power of the warp soul and daemon, but like everything else in 40K the odds of a good outcome aren't that great.

[Zablorg]

Some other things I need to run by y'all:

Is a soul's "brightness" indicative of warp conductivity and after-death cohesiveness?

And does a chaos god go nom nom nom and just eat the soul or does it leech off the psychic power emenating from it for all eternity?

[Aasharu]

White_rabbit, I can now sympathize with your sig. A person I know, who is also a rabid trektard, tried to argue with me that the Borg would defeat the Necrons. The gist of his argument was, "The Necrons use antimatter, but so does all of Star Trek, so obviously, the Borg are more advanced," "the Borg would adapt to the Necron weapons," and finally, "once a Necron is assimilated, then all the Borg will be self healing." I was stunned. I just sat there, amazed that such stupidity could exist.

[white_rabbit]

White_rabbit, I can now sympathize with your sig. A person I know, who is also a rabid trektard, tried to argue with me that the Borg would defeat the Necrons. The gist of his argument was, "The Necrons use antimatter, but so does all of Star Trek, so obviously, the Borg are more advanced," "the Borg would adapt to the Necron weapons," and finally, "once a Necron is assimilated, then all the Borg will be self healing." I was stunned. I just sat there, amazed that such stupidity could exist.

Its a little off topic, but the Imperium has anti-matter bombs among other things.

The Necrons are supposed to use the "raw energy of creation" IIRC which could mean anything

Is a soul's "brightness" indicative of warp conductivity and after-death cohesiveness?

Not on its own I imagine, a Psykers soul burns brightly in the warp, but that doesn't mean a human psyker is more likely to survive as a sentient entity after death, it just means he's got raw power.

And does a chaos god go nom nom nom and just eat the soul or does it leech off the psychic power emenating from it for all eternity?

Liber chaotica describes souls and warp entities as basically swirling vortex type thingies, corresponding to certain emotions, ideas etc, which would amalagamate and accumulate depending on how well they were matched.

So a more powerful soul is the result of whatever metaphysical ability or effect that allows an individual to force/influence a segment of the frothing chaos in the warp into alignment with their ideas and emotions.

Psychic "power" is the energy of the warp, so gaining souls, following the Vortex theory is simply making more of the warp sympathetic to a specific range of concepts.

So the answer is probably Yes.

[Xon]

The Necrons are supposed to use the "raw energy of creation" IIRC which could mean anything

In SciFi, that generally refers to the energy around directly after the Big Bang. Which is generally a fucntion of density (closely approaching planck's temperature).

In fantasy or scifi which doesnt follow Big Bang theory who the fuck knows.

[white_rabbit]

The Necrons are supposed to use the "raw energy of creation" IIRC which could mean anything

In SciFi, that generally refers to the energy around directly after the Big Bang. Which is generally a fucntion of density (closely approaching planck's temperature).

In fantasy or scifi which doesnt follow Big Bang theory who the fuck knows.

When I thought about it, the Lighthuggers from Revelation space came to mind, or rather, their engines.