Patriotism and Loyalty

Comando293 · Post by **Comando293** » 2008-04-03 08:41pm

I hope this goes here...

Today, I was musing on the origins of patriotism and loyalty. I was wondering about where patriotism comes from. Is it an emotional atachment? Is it part of tho need to belong to a group?

After some self-thought, I really don't care about my country, or any other country for that matter. Now, I kinda like living here, and wish to remain here as opposed to some anarchist shithole. But the United States isn't a place that I particularly care about. If the States crumbled tommorow, I wouldn't bitch and moan that America is gone, that my wonderful American ideals have been destroyed. I would pack my stuff and move on.

However, this doesn't mean that I am not also loyal, both to people and organizations. I would fight for some things, but my country is not one of them.

These thoughts lead to some questions. What is the relationship between Loyalty and Patriotism? Where do people get these feelings? Is there some part of the brain responsible for feel patriotic? The main question I am asking is why I don't feel any patriotic or loyal feelings to my, or any, country.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-04-03 08:56pm

I think that if you look at the way people have actually come to blows over sports team rivalries, you can probably find the psychological roots of patriotic fervour. It must be related.

Singular Intellect · Post by **Singular Intellect** » 2008-04-03 09:27pm

It strikes me as nothing more than slightly greater intellectual capability being influenced by group mentality.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-04-03 11:41pm

From a pretty smart guy:

Albert Einstein wrote:"That a man can take pleasure in marching in fours to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; unprotected spinal marrow was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed. Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism- how passionately I hate them!"

From "Ideas and Opinions by Albert Einstein", p.10. They cited the original source as an essay called "The World as I See It", published in "Living Philosophies", Simon and Schuster, New York, 1931.

Personally, I love this quote for two reasons. First, because I like to lambast flag-waving "patriots". Second, because it's a good example of Einstein hurling an insult. I'm so sick of people whose debate style revolves around saying that you must be stupid if you are rude or use insults.

Comando293 · Post by **Comando293** » 2008-04-04 12:22am

Well, the main thing that I was wondering was why *I* don't feel patriotic or loyal to my country. I don't take pleasure in being part of the group, I just feel that (especially in wrestling) my service to the team is the reason for my being on the team. I *deserve* the spot because I will work hard to help the team win. Do I not deserve the spot that I get in society that I have because I could give less of a fuck? Basically, I feel somewhat like a freeloader because I will gladly burn the "team" for my benefit.

Am I asking some deep question into my Psyche that y'all have no hope of answering? Do any of you feel the same way?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2008-04-04 01:17am

Meh, I guess you can look at it two ways. First is the obvious tribalism answer. Us versus them type thing on a large scale. The second is people actually caring about the society they live in, which I would propose is real patriotism, rather than redneck flag waving.

Hawkwings · Post by **Hawkwings** » 2008-04-04 01:19am

I feel the opposite. My experience in "team" activities has been mostly in music, specifically concert music and marching band, where one person can ruin the performance for everyone. I feel a great deal of "patriotism" in my group because it is so easy to distrust your teammates and do your own thing, but the fact that we do trust each other, work together, and create a good product is an incredible achievement that I can be proud of myself and proud of the team for doing. On your wrestling team, your performance doesn't directly affect your teammates', but on my team, it does, so we must have this sense of trust in each other, which easily develops into loyalty.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2008-04-04 01:47am

Darth Wong wrote:I think that if you look at the way people have actually come to blows over sports team rivalries, you can probably find the psychological roots of patriotic fervour. It must be related.

I've always thought this as well. You can probably lump religion in there too.

Tolya · Post by **Tolya** » 2008-04-04 04:13am

You know, I live in a country, in which issues of patriotism, and the whole martyrological story of suffering (Poland was literally erased from the map of the world for more than 100 years, until 1918) are a very touchy subject.

I have been thinking about this whole patriotism deal for quite some time, trying to find out what it exactly is and why I should be grateful towards a country only because I was born here?

A few weeks ago, while driving a car and listening to the news radio, I listened to the end of a conversation with an university professor - quite a famous guy here, although I can't remember his name right now (not that it would mean anything to you guys).

Before I go on with what he said, a bit of a background: in Poland, the mainstream idea of patriotism is "defend your country from all evil, external and internal" (roughly and in short, I'll explain if you want).

Now, that guy went ahead and said, that patriotism is not a static idea. Each generation should and must redefine their idea of patriotism, because to youngsters it would be something entirely different than to those, who fought in the second world war, or liberated the country from communism.

So, while to my grandfathers hypothethically, since they are both dead), patriotism would mean defending the country from nazi and communist invaders, which was the case with WW2.

However, to a new generation, which was born in a free and sovereign country, patriotism would rather be struggling towards making everyone in the country feel happier and improve the quality of their lives. For example, by supporting the country's economy, fighting for human rights et cetera et cetera, not as much caring about preserving the national identity, which was very much important to my ancestors, when Poland wasn't on map.

Im still thinking about this, but it makes sense. This makes the idea of patriotism quite easy to grasp for the people of my age.

Going by this, I wouldn't call myself a patriot.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-04-04 04:28am

Patriotism here in Russia is twofold: one part insists on rabidly supporting the government whatever it does. The other part is thoroughly disillusioned with the results of this government's performance and stands that patriotism is not a blind love for the state, but a real will to make it better, even if that means ousting this government.

Both sides call themselves patriotic.

I'm not patriotic in the sense that I always support my nation, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I'm only patriotic as far as I wish all the best to my country - however, not at the expense of others.

Russia is a very harsh country which has lived through very rough times, so patriotism here is also linked with the sacrifices of past generations. If you do not respect them, this does not go well with the society. It seems as if the society made great sacrifices in the past to give you what you have now, but you choose to say "fuck off, I don't care about this society any more".

This is also why oligarchs and mobsters are universally and strongly reviled in Russia - so strongly that once a story about an oligarch comes up, you can be certain 50% of the posts would contain calls for retribution against the guy.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-04-04 05:40am

Patriotism is a string they tie around you while you are a child so in the future it can be pulled for the favour of a few.

Xenuite · Post by **Xenuite** » 2008-04-04 10:50am

I never understood the idea of being loyal to a place because you live there or were born there. During the Civil War officers who were against slavery defended the south, and thus the practice of slavery, because they were being patriotic. Patriotism seems to be more of an excuse for stupidity then anything else.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2008-04-04 12:11pm

Xenuite wrote:I never understood the idea of being loyal to a place because you live there or were born there. During the Civil War officers who were against slavery defended the south, and thus the practice of slavery, because they were being patriotic. Patriotism seems to be more of an excuse for stupidity then anything else.

It makes sense if a lot of someone's self-esteem is bound up in his nationality.

If you look at people who are really proud of their race, you see the same problem. Racial pride tends to lead to racial prejudice, because when so much of your self-esteem is bound up with your race, you want to "defend" it against others. Similarly, if a person takes way too much pride in his nationality, he will become an aggressive, possibly violently jingoistic retard.

This is, I suspect, more common when people have little else to be proud of.

PS. Interesting side-note: in the older traditional British loyalist homes in Canada from the 19th century, there was often a lot of artwork or artifacts from India, China, or Africa. The reason was not, as it might be today, appreciation of cultural diversity. More often than not, they regarded those cultures as inferior. Instead, it was patriotic pride in the global reach of the mighty British empire. They proudly displayed those (expensively acquired) items as symbols of the size of the empire upon which the Sun never sets. To this day, we still tend to associate foreign cultural artifacts with upper-class sophistication, but it had an entirely different meaning back then.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2008-04-04 03:07pm

Darth Wong wrote: It makes sense if a lot of someone's self-esteem is bound up in his nationality.

Or religion.

I honestly wonder how much of fundamentalist stupidity is a willful denial of reality just to reassure oneself in the percieved superiority of the group they belong to, or simply the idea that a person belongs to that group, instead of actually believing the idiotic shit.

Comando293 · Post by **Comando293** » 2008-04-05 03:17pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Xenuite wrote:I never understood the idea of being loyal to a place because you live there or were born there. During the Civil War officers who were against slavery defended the south, and thus the practice of slavery, because they were being patriotic. Patriotism seems to be more of an excuse for stupidity then anything else.
It makes sense if a lot of someone's self-esteem is bound up in his nationality.

This is where I come from. Why should I care what the fate of my birthplace is? Is it because I am not proud of what my country is doing right now? I was perfectly willing to die for this place a few years ago, now I just don't care.