Fundi polygamist cults at it again.

[Kronos]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5676830.html

AUSTIN — Fifty-two girls, including 18 suspected abuse victims, were removed by state officials Friday from the West Texas compound where a religious sect kept them isolated from the outside world.

The dramatic departure by school bus involved many of the girls living at the community near Eldorado, about 45 miles south of San Angelo.

The complex of dormitory-style buildings and a large temple was founded four years ago by polygamist leader Warren Jeffs, who was convicted last year in Utah of being an accomplice to the rape of a 14-year-old girl.

Boys were allowed to remain at the Yearn for Zion Ranch but will be questioned by investigators from Child Protective Services, said agency spokesman Darrell Azar.

Child abuse investigators and officers with the Texas Department of Public Safety arrived at the complex Thursday in response to a report CPS received Monday alleging a 16-year-old girl had been sexually and physically abused.

On Friday, they executed a search warrant at the compound.

The warrant is for records dealing with the birth of any children to a 16-year-old and any records listing a marriage between a 50-year-old man and the girl, according to the San Angelo Standard-Times, which cited court records released late Friday in Tom Green County.

An arrest warrant was issued, but the individual whom public safety officials are looking for had not been located by Friday evening, said spokeswoman Tela Mange. She said she could not reveal whose name was on the warrant.

The social workers spent Thursday night and Friday questioning people living at the complex.

They determined that 18 girls, ranging in age from 6 months to 17 years, had been abused or were at immediate risk of future abuse.

Officials did not provide any specifics.

Azar said temporary placements were found for all of them, at undisclosed locations.

The 34 girls who were transported out of the complex for questioning were taken to an area civic center.

Azar said children in suspected abuse cases are routinely taken to a neutral location for questioning, usually a child advocacy center or state office. In this case, the size of the group required a larger facility.

"We will continue to talk to them and make sure their needs are met until we can determine whether they had been abused or are at immediate risk of future abuse," Azar said.

The sudden police invasion of the religious sect, which is not associated with the mainstream Mormon Church, reminded some of the deadly federal raid 15 years ago of the Branch Davidian complex near Waco.

But public safety spokesman Tom Vinger said sect members were "very cooperative."

Azar said the only motivation for the agency's investigation was the children's welfare.

"The actions we've taken today have nothing to do with religion or lifestyle," Azar said. "The pure interest is in protecting children from abuse and neglect. That's what we have done."

As the investigation unfolded, police blocked roads leading to the complex and restricted flights over the facility.

Robert Black, Gov. Rick Perry's spokesman, said CPS informed the governor's office Tuesday that there would be a raid at the compound by the end of the week.

"There was reason to believe a girl had called in and said she was being raped," Black said. "There also was reason to believe they were heavily armed out there."

Members of the sect from Utah, known as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, arrived in Texas in late 2003.

They purchased the 1,700-acre ranch four miles outside of Eldorado, a town of 2,000, and began construction.

Officials believed about 150 people were living at the community in 2006.

Most of the 10,000-member sect has lived throughout its 70-year history in the twin cities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hilldale, Utah, north of the Grand Canyon; and in a small outpost just across the Canadian border in Bountiful, British Columbia.

Jeffs, a former high school principal, began taking over the sect in the late 1990s and became the leader after his father's death in 2002.

Randy Mankin, owner of the Eldorado Success newspaper, said Jeffs' downfall appeared to have had little impact on the sect, which continues to add buildings, Mankin said.

"It has not stopped one bit. In fact, it's accelerated," Mankin said. "In four years, they've built another town outside my town."

A few men from the sect show up in Eldorado to shop, but women and children are rarely seen, Mankin said.

Jeffs was convicted in September. A 14-year-old girl testified she was forced to wed her cousin. He was sentenced to two consecutive terms of five years to life.

Testimony indicated he performed the ceremony and forced the girl to marry the 19-year-old man and have sex with him.

Jeffs is in the Mohave County Jail in Kingman, Ariz., awaiting trial on charges of sexual conduct with a minor, incest and conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor

Looks like Texas cults are at it again.

[Broomstick]

That's not a Texas cult, those are the Fundamentalist Mormons from the Utah-Arizona border. Please don't blame Texas for Warren Jeffs. And please don't blame the mainstream Mormons, either - this is a wacko splinter group.

When Jeffs came under pressure in the "home" area of his little cult he started moving operations to the YFZ ranch in Texas. For a number of reasons there have also been rumors of dissenters and their families being sent there and essentially imprisoned. The whole mess is a cesspool that needs to be cleaned. If the authorities are finally doing that then bravo. Jeffs and his crew are NOT nice people.

Among the many Wrong Things: forced marriage of underage girls to men, denial of education to both genders but especially the women, physical abuse, sexual abuse, "reassignment" of wives and children from one man to another as a form of punishing men, abandonment of teen boys/young men along highways to cut down on the "oversupply" of men which is the only way to ensure there are enough women for the remaining men to have multiple wives, welfare fraud, neglect of children (denial of food to a woman's children is used as a way of keeping women in line) and denial of medical care to pregnant women as well as women with serious diseases (there was at least one case of a woman with a skin cancer on her nose who was told to remove it herself, as it wasn't worth spending money on her to have a doctor do it. Although she survived, the matter did not end well).

Really, it's like something out of The Handmaid's Tale or a Suzy McKee Charnas novel. All women are forced to marry. All married women are basically kept pregnant and popping out kids. There is clear favoritism of the male over the female - which is not say the men fare that much better. The incest charges against Warren Jeffs stem from his alleged rape of a male relative. Things were bad before, but since Jeffs took over the shit has only gotten crazier and nastier.

[Gil Hamilton]

The problem I think is that in cleaning up Warren Jeffs insane little cult, the feds are EXTREMELY hesitant to do it, because they also happen to be a heavily armed Mormon Fundamentalist sect. I remember reading that one of the things they do with the boys is teach them to shoot and tell them that if the Federal Government come, defend the church.

I think the Feds have a very valid concern that if they move in and start mass arrests, there is a very real chance there is going to be a gun battle involving children. The last thing the Federal government wants is the bodies of some twelve year olds on CNN, even if they were clutching rifles.

[Broomstick]

Oh, certainly, all of the FCJCLDS "compounds" are armed camps with a definite "Us vs. the Evil World" mindset and a little apocalyptic prophesy to boot. From what I gather, when they first splintered off it wasn't so bad. I read a biography of a woman who escaped from these loons - she had gone to college and obtained a real teaching certificate for educating the church's children legally under state law, she wasn't the only woman who had gone to college or obtained a driver's license, her father I think only had two wives and made strong efforts to raise all his children equally well, but when Jeffs took over the girls were dumped out of school, the lady in the book was out of a job, women were almost entirely forbidden to work outside of childrearing and housekeeping, the old men had dozens of wives, rampant favoritism between women, one old goat had all his wives on birth control (forbidden, of course) so they wouldn't get pregnant and he'd have to stop fucking them.

Then there's crazy shit like Jeffs announcing that red was reserved solely for God so every scrap of red cloth had to be thrown out, buildings repainted, red flowers ripped out of the ground, red fruit could not be bought or eaten - so green and yellow apples OK, red ones no - which is just batshit nuts.

[Edi]

The only problem with the response to an armed insurgency against the state is that if the fuckwits do go through with it and actually start shooting at the cops, a clear, overwhelming response of "Kill anyone with a gun who doesn't instantly throw it down" should take care of the problem. And when the inevitable shitstorm starts, it can be pointed out that the United States does not deal with terrorists, whether foreign or homegrown and anybody wanting to make excuses for them can go fuck himself.

These fuckers are no different than drug gang members who shoot at police or armed kidnappers, robbers or whatnot who get shot on a regular basis. But because religion is such a sacred cow in the US, nobody is going to just stand up and say "fuck them and good riddance" in public and stick to his guns.

[Broomstick]

It's a problem, in that the US really does (for the most part) want to tolerate different belief systems. If you look at a group like the Amish - which are pretty extreme in many ways - there are several big difference between them and the FCJCLDS:

1) No one is held against their will in Amish communities. Anyone in those communities at any time can up and move out into the broader world - and they do. On average 25% of Amish children leave their community at adulthood Every year a certain number of their adults leave, too. This is not to say it is easy for them to make this move, but it's widely known as possible and if the young people leave prior to baptism in the church (around age 20) they usually remain on good terms with their families

2) The Amish usually cooperate with authorities. They prefer to handle things internally but when they can't, or the outside world intrudes, they do cooperate. Sometimes they even call them authorities themselves.

3) They are, by and large, law-abiding and frequently do not use programs that others do, such as social security and Medicaid so they are not taking advantage of the larger society. They absolutely assume the cost of caring for all members of their community, to the point of paying cash for such things as organ transplants, heart surgery, or long term care for completely disabled individuals.

4) The Amish don't believe in violence even in self-defense - this means that when there have been clashes between them and others they've worked them out in the courts (for such a small group they've wound up in front of the US Supreme Court a surprising number of times)

5) The Amish educational system is such that any Amish person who chooses to leave the community will be sufficiently literate and math-educated to function in the real world. Such people generally opt for a GED, some go on to college. I believe the University of Illinois in Chicago has a professor with mutiple doctorates who was raised Amish.

Let's compare with the wackos:

1) People ARE held against their will. Family members are held as hostages to insure the good behavior of others.

2) These folks defy authority - in the Utah-Arizona communities they comprise the entire police force and government. Anyone from outside is met with hostility. As pointed out, the children are trained to oppose and fight outside authority.

3) They deliberately seek to defraud programs, such as WIC and welfare, extracting as much money as possible and in some cases committing fraud to obtain more. Despite that, they do NOT care for all members of their communities - some individuals live lavishly, while others are denied basic medical care. Young men are driven to remote locations and literally abandoned with no money, no ID, and often with inadequate clothing and no way to call for help.

4) These folks advocate armed resistance to the government. They train their children for it.

4) Their educational system used to be adequate, but it has since been trashed. The girls are kept deliberately ignorant - the fact they have no skills beyond brood mare, cook, housecleaner, and concubine keeps them tied to the community.

To my mind, that makes for a big differences even if both groups can be seen as extreme. It's one thing if no one is held against their will, children have sufficient education to move into the wider world, and the group is law-abiding as well as non-threatening. Quite another if the group is holding hostages/prisoners, children are kept ignorant, and the men are buying lots of guns and ammo while muttering about armageddon. One is a lifestyle choice (if you change your mind you can leave), the other is coerced (not only is movement outside of community discouraged or made difficult, but members who have left have had their cars sabotaged or otherwise been physically endangered by the FCJCLDS)

I think two of the things that bother me the most about this FCJCLDS group is the wanton disregard for human life - no pre-natal or obstetric care for women who bear child after child, and the actual abandonment of "excess" young men. The areas the boys are dropped in are remote enough that it would be difficult to walk to a town, particularly without supplies of any kind, because you could be dead of thirst or exposure in a matter of days. These assholes are depending on other people to happen along and pick up these young men, and certainly quite a few have been rescued, but it's pretty certain a number of them have died along the road, in bad weather, or just from wandering lost in a sparsely inhabited area.

[Broomstick]

I also want to expand on how the FCJCLDS has changed over time, comparing the present to the past.

1) People ARE held against their will. Family members are held as hostages to insure the good behavior of others. - In the past, there was much more passage between members of the wacky church and those outside, usually "mainstream Mormons". As time has passed, not only has social contacts diminished, there are fewer people in the wacky church with first-degree relatives outside of it, further isolating these communities.

2) These folks defy authority - in the Utah-Arizona communities they comprise the entire police force and government. Anyone from outside is met with hostility. As pointed out, the children are trained to oppose and fight outside authority - When they first splintered off they did NOT have total control over the law and politics, they deliberately moved to gain that over time.

3) They deliberately seek to defraud programs, such as WIC and welfare, extracting as much money as possible and in some cases committing fraud to obtain more. Despite that, they do NOT care for all members of their communities - some individuals live lavishly, while others are denied basic medical care. Young men are driven to remote locations and literally abandoned with no money, no ID, and often with inadequate clothing and no way to call for help. - As recently as a generation ago their women received medical care comparable with any other community in those areas of Utah or Arizona. Young men were not routinely "disposed of" - but in the past, while men had multiple wives, 2 or 3 wives at most were the norm, now the communities are lead by old men with dozens of wives, leaving none for young men.

4) These folks advocate armed resistance to the government. They train their children for it. - While they were never particularly happy with the Feds (their polygamous practices being a major reason) indoctrination of young men into a de facto army has only occurred in the most recent generation.

5) Their educational system used to be adequate, but it has since been trashed. The girls are kept deliberately ignorant - the fact they have no skills beyond brood mare, cook, housecleaner, and concubine keeps them tied to the community. - As mentioned before - even the women used to be able to go to college. It was rare, but certainly was done. This, again, is a recent change.

When they originally splintered off, well, they were seen as a bit nutty, but with polygamy (in an area that historically did practice polygamy) being the major break, they were tolerated. Sure, they were standoffish, but as long as they obeyed the law (outside of their religious multiple-wives things), educated their children, and didn't abuse, or neglect or abandon people, and people could (and did) move between their community and the outside world (whether permanently, for work, or for education) no one worried overmuch or bothered them. They were weird and conservative but seen as largely harmless. The US has had a lot of groups over the years with odd beliefs, that's nothing new. They don't usually last very long, but those that do... well, as long as no one is getting hurt and they aren't costing us money, hey, freedom, right? But what we have here is a criminal enterprise hiding behind religion that's hurting quite a few people. It really does need to be rooted out, although preferably not as another Waco.

That said - I'm not at all surprised that removing Jeffs really made no change. This has become self-supporting dysfunction and insanity. Truth is, between the inbreeding and the neglect they'd probably die out in 3-4 genearions anyway, but I'd rather not see that much human suffering if it can be ended sooner in a tolerable manner.

[Gil Hamilton]

And the Amish are generally pleasant and even somewhat flexible. Pennsylvania has ALOT of Amish. They've got some pretty strict rules, but it's not uncommon for them to bend them a bit. For example, it's not unheard of for the Amish to allow for electricity for medical equipment if a member of the community really needs it. More commonly, most Amish communities allow for electricity for refrigeration of milk.

Further, they actually are part of society, even if they live away from it. You get plenty of Amish who sell baked goods and handicraft, particularly wooden furniture. I believe there are some communities that do pretty well on selling homemade wooden furniture and there are people who seek them out for that sort of stuff, though I can't think of outstanding examples. That's a difference Broomstick outlined, they aren't really against general society (even if they don't approve of alot of it) and certainly aren't rebellious against it.

More over (and in stark contrast to Jeffs nutters), while they are very insular, at the same time, they pretty much exist in a communal state with each other. They don't tolerate members of their community suffering and even if they are somewhat closed off (I would be, tourists who go to Amish country tend to be shits), they'd still make any effort to help some in need who came amongst them. The Amish are one of the few religious groups who take all Jesus stuff about "Do unto the the least of my children..." thing very seriously.

[Mayabird]

I have read that the FCJCLDS is also against using pretty much any kind of modern medicine, especially vaccination (of course). They're into anointing with oil and praying until the kids live or die. It may not be an official doctrine, as I've been trying to find a source and not succeeding, but I'm remembering stories of people who were banished or escaped from the communities talking about the lack of medical care they received even when gravely ill.

But on another, verified medical note, all that inbreeding isn't good for them.

[Broomstick]

References for more information:

Escape - by Carolyn Jessop and Laura Palmer, basically Jessop's biography up to her escape from the Fundies. At that point, in 2003, she was the ONLY woman who had ever left the community who was able to retain custody of her children, every other woman who left had lost her children.

Children of Diversity a.k.a. 'The Lost Boys" - a charity that assists the young men, usually between 12 and 21, who have been excommunicated from the Wacky Fundies. The founder is a man who was raised in the group before Warren Jeffs took over but left and became a dentist. Since 2002 over 400 young men/boys have been forced out/abandoned by the nutjobs.

The Southern Poverty Law Center lists these wackos as a hate group and a racist group.

The Phoenix New Times published an extensive article on this group and their concept of "blood atonement" - the idea that some sins require the death of the sinner. The "crime" featured was a girl choosing her own boyfriend instead one dictated by Warren Jeffs. Former FLDS Church member Robert Richter reported that he was asked to design a thermostat for a high-temperature furnace that would be capable of destroying DNA evidence if such "atonements" were to take place. There is also a discussion of the possibility of a Waco-style end, or possible mass suicide among the church members if so ordered.

Due to inbreeding, the Utah-Arizona community has the world's highest incidence of fumarase deficiency This is due to inbreeding. There are about 20 cases in this community. In the entire rest of the world there are only 13.

Oh - and the man accusing Warren Jeffs of incestuous homosexual rape? His name is Brent Jeffs and his is Warren's nephew. He filed suit in on July 28, 2005. As Brent Jeffs was a child at the time of the alleged crime that would pedophillic incestuous homosexual rape.

And one more concern - fleeing the country. These assholes also have a community up in Bountiful, British Columbia.

[Broomstick]

And the Amish are generally pleasant and even somewhat flexible. Pennsylvania has ALOT of Amish. They've got some pretty strict rules, but it's not uncommon for them to bend them a bit.

Yes, the Amish have been known to compromise. That's the reason I used them as a contrast. They are definitely a "fringe" group in some ways, have their own communities, keep to themselves, have unusual beliefs and practices, and tend to marry among themselves (the Amish have inbreeding problems, too) but they're a group that can co-exist with the larger world community.

For example, it's not unheard of for the Amish to allow for electricity for medical equipment if a member of the community really needs it. More commonly, most Amish communities allow for electricity for refrigeration of milk.

Amish are also allowed to use any sort of technology required by a job if they are employed outside their community - thus, Amish men working in factories learn to use computers, telephones, and so forth for employment reasons - they will not use them outside of their jobs.

In some cases, particularly the medical cases, the exception is made because they hold preservation of life to be of over-riding importance. Amish will not hesitate to use standard ambulances in medical emergencies, nor would they refuse a helicopter rescue to save a life. Some Amish settlements have telephones installed where property lines meet for emergency use In some cases, if they wish to sell milk outside their immediate community, they must utilize powered refrigeration to comply with the health laws (those employment reasons again - they're not doing it merely for convenience and such refrigeration will be restricted to milk storage, you will not find it in their home).

Further, they actually are part of society, even if they live away from it. You get plenty of Amish who sell baked goods and handicraft, particularly wooden furniture.

There's an Amish bakery based about 15 miles east of me. About twice a week they head into the Chicago Loop to sell baked goods, cheeses, and various produce (in season) at the farmer's markets and also in some of the Loop office buildings. They are such a regular feature that at my former place of employment "Amish days" were posted on department bulletin boards. Yummy stuff. They are quite happy to take "English money" and really, except for their clothing, you'd never guess they were anything but typical Midwesterners.

Here's the thing - they hire an "English" (that is, non-Amish) driver and his truck to bring their goods in, but the Amish themselves ride in on the commuter train, the same one I used to ride on. No practical way to haul their wares on the train, but while the food has to go by truck the Amish themselves don't.

That's a difference Broomstick outlined, they aren't really against general society (even if they don't approve of alot of it) and certainly aren't rebellious against it.

They live apart, but they are still very much connected to the wider world. They aren't ignorant They ARE aware of the wider world, they do read the news, they do go to places like downtown Chicago, visit museums, shop where everyone else does... I don't agree with their doctrines, but I can't say they aren't exposed to other ideas. They certainly are. They just choose to keep living the way they feel is correct.

They don't tolerate members of their community suffering and even if they are somewhat closed off (I would be, tourists who go to Amish country tend to be shits), they'd still make any effort to help some in need who came amongst them. The Amish are one of the few religious groups who take all Jesus stuff about "Do unto the the least of my children..." thing very seriously.

They're rather well-known for helping out after disasters. There have been instances of Midwestern communities being leveled by tornadoes after the weather clears the Amish come over the hills to see if they can help out, up to and including helping their "English" neighbors rebuild. Which makes them sound saintly - they aren't They're still pretty damn stand-offish. Polite if you talk to them, very courteous, but not really interested in getting to be your friend. They can be extremely narrow-minded and intolerant on some subjects. And they have their share of addicts, alcoholics, criminals and wackos, the occasional thief or murderer. They're very human.

But yes, they most certainly DO take care of their own. No one goes without medical care in Amish country. No abortion, of course, but every baby is cared for, and they also will adopt from outside. They don't accept vaccinations, but they do submit to quarantines (not entirely happy with that myself, but the compromise seems to have worked so far). Every child receives an education. Old people are taken care of - if an elderly person has no relatives the rest of the community will stilll see to their care, make sure they have a place to live, even when the elderly are demented or disabled or disagreeable.

They aren't perfect, but they do seem to try to be. I think this may be in part because their clergy is selected by vote by the community - a minister's son has no guarantee of succeeding his father - and the post of minister receives no pay. It's a job in addition to whatever the man does for a living, he obtains no financial gain from it whatsoever and in fact winds up sacrificing quite a bit of time and effort. They do get a corrupt one now and then, but their system limits the damage such a person can cause.

[Broomstick]

I have read that the FCJCLDS is also against using pretty much any kind of modern medicine, especially vaccination (of course). They're into anointing with oil and praying until the kids live or die. It may not be an official doctrine, as I've been trying to find a source and not succeeding, but I'm remembering stories of people who were banished or escaped from the communities talking about the lack of medical care they received even when gravely ill

Carolyn Jessop covers some of that in her book. Who gets medical care depends very much on their status in the community, with high-ranking men definitely being favored. A highly favored person is much more likely to receive medical care - for awhile Jessop's severely ill son was getting modern hospital care, and indeed her exposure to the outside world while staying with him probably had a lot to do with her break with the church - but someone out of favor would receive just prayer - or perhaps not even that. When she lost favor she was told her son's problems were her fault, due to her sins, and that if prayer alone couldn't save him then she deserved to have him die or something of the sort. Then you get crazy shit - the book talks about a man being injured in a car accident, he was in the hospital getting real medical care, then Jeffs announced he was OK to go home (over the phone! At a distance! Without a look at him!) and then it's, well, OK, get up, get dressed, we'll drive you home.

[Broomstick]

CNN just updated:

Apparently 183 people have been taken from this compound, that's nearly half the number believed to live there. 137 of them are minors/children, mostly girls.

Apparently no violence at all so far, which is good. The "raid" has been described as "out of the blue" - which might account for no resistance, no one in the compound had time to get ready.

It would be nice if they get enough dirt on this crew to shut them down entirely.

ELDORADO, Texas (CNN) -- Dozens more children and young women were removed Saturday from a Texas ranch that is home to members of a polygamist sect, as state workers investigated claims of physical and sexual abuse.

A total of 183 people -- including 137 children -- have been taken away since law enforcement officers raided the compound Thursday night, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the Texas Child Protective Services Division.

The children -- most of them girls -- were being interviewed by special investigators, she said.

"We're trying to find out if they're safe," she explained. "We need to know if they have been abused or neglected."

Eighteen of the girls have been taken into state custody.

Authorities believe that they "had been abused or were at immediate risk of future abuse," said Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar.

The others were taken to a nearby civic center. Meisner described them as doing "remarkably well."

Authorities continue to search the 1,900-acre YFZ ranch, occupied by followers of imprisoned polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, and at least one man is being sought by police.

Law enforcement agencies raided the ranch Thursday night after receiving a report Monday that a 16-year-old girl had been "sexually and physically abused," Azar said.

Law enforcement and child welfare officials were at the ranch all night Thursday and throughout Friday.

According to the search warrant, authorities are seeking Dale Barlow, 50, whom they suspect of having married and fathered a child with a 16-year-old girl. Video Watch an Eldorado neighbor talk about the raid »

The warrant cited an "immediate need" for authorities to have access to the 16-year-old and an 8-month-old child with either the last name of Barlow or the girl's last name. It instructs law enforcement officers to look for any records showing that Barlow and the girl were married and any evidence of them having a child.

The people living at the ranch are cooperating, authorities said.

Jeffs, the 52-year-old leader and "prophet" of the 10,000-member church, was convicted in Utah last year and sentenced to 10 years on two counts of being an accomplice to rape, charges related to a marriage he performed in 2001. He faces trial in Arizona on eight charges of sexual conduct with a minor, incest and conspiracy.

Jeffs' Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints bought the land near Eldorado four years ago and built the ranch, which they call the YFZ Ranch. The letters are said to refer to the words Yearning for Zion.

It is home to as many as 400 members who relocated from their Arizona and Utah compounds.

State and local law enforcement agencies set up roadblocks around the ranch Thursday evening, preventing journalists from seeing what was happening on the property, according to Randy Mankin, editor of the Eldorado Success weekly newspaper.

"This came totally out of the blue," Mankin said.

There were no indications of violence around the ranch, he said.

When CNN crews have visited the ranch, it was guarded by armed men equipped with night vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools to prevent intruders.

When CNN flew over the ranch in a small plane last year, the crew saw a massive temple, the three-story housing units where Jeffs' chosen followers live, the water tower, the school and community center, the dairy and cheese factory and a massive concrete mill.
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The church openly practices polygamy in two towns straddling the Arizona-Utah state line -- Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona -- but members living on their Texas ranch rarely venture into Eldorado, four miles to the south.

Critics of the sect say that it arranges marriages for girls as young as 13 and that competition for brides may be reduced through exiling young men. If male followers are excommunicated, the critics claim, their wives and children can be reassigned to someone else.

[Warsie]

The only problem with the response to an armed insurgency against the state is that if the fuckwits do go through with it and actually start shooting at the cops, a clear, overwhelming response of "Kill anyone with a gun who doesn't instantly throw it down" should take care of the problem. And when the inevitable shitstorm starts, it can be pointed out that the United States does not deal with terrorists, whether foreign or homegrown and anybody wanting to make excuses for them can go fuck himself..

That will piss off more people and motivate them more (see Oklahoma City)

[Wicked Pilot]

For those of you not following the news the situation isn't over yet:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/05/tex ... index.html

Might get ugly.

[Broomstick]

Damn. Oh, wait, it's Texas.. daaaaaaaaay-um!

All kidding aside - hope this doesn't turn ugly. They must have some solid evidence to get a search warrant for a place of worship. Sounds like they know/expect something the press is not privy to.

Sounds like they have a lot of the women and kids out of the way, though, which would certainly mitigate the damage if it does blow up later.

[Guardsman Bass]

Another reason why they don't simply send in the Feds and state police and erase the entire polygamist bastion from the face of the Earth was that they tried it back in the 1950s (with the strong support of the mainstream LDS Church, who wanted these embarrassing folks out of the picture) in the Short Creek Raid. They ended up having to back down because the media came down sympathetically on the polygamist side, but maybe it would go better if they tried it now.

[Sidewinder]

I wonder about the male members' mentality; even if young men are competition for scarce women, what father would allow his son to be abandoned the way the adolescents were? Such a situation should at least lead to angry arguments; in most societies, it would likely lead to armed conflict between protective fathers and those who saw other men's sons as competition.

[Sidewinder]

They ended up having to back down because the media came down sympathetically on the polygamist side, but maybe it would go better if they tried it now.

Have the authorities publicize evidence of child abuse, sexual abuse, pedophilia, etc., and those shit-for-brains reporters will be too scared to express sympathy towards the cultists.

[CaptainChewbacca]

For those of you not following the news the situation isn't over yet:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/05/tex ... index.html

Might get ugly.

Oh look, the 'pedophile smile' rears its creepy head.

[Broomstick]

I wonder about the male members' mentality; even if young men are competition for scarce women, what father would allow his son to be abandoned the way the adolescents were? Such a situation should at least lead to angry arguments; in most societies, it would likely lead to armed conflict between protective fathers and those who saw other men's sons as competition.

Aside from brainwashing/indoctrination, if a married man dissents his wives can be "reassigned" to another man. That's right, in this group the head honcho can arbitrarily give your family to someone else more loyal to him. Married men with families have been excommunicated and forced to leave. Remember, this group has been talking about "blood atonement" and may have performed executions. Stepping out of line has real risks.

If the women find it nearly impossible to escape with their children, I can only imagine a dissenting man would find it impossible to take multiple women and their children with him. So dissenters are forced out - and know that their wives are being fucked by other men, and their children are at the mercy of other people and there's nothing they can do to help their families. The only protection they can offer their children is to stay in good standing with the rulers - because the sons of favored men are much less likely to be abandoned. There's nothing fair in this system by our standards, it's all about who you're most closely related to, and who does or doesn't like you.

[K. A. Pital]

This cult should be destroyed and it's head members put on trial. This shit should not stand and I believe it would not have stood in any European nation.

Then there's crazy shit like Jeffs announcing that red was reserved solely for God so every scrap of red cloth had to be thrown out, buildings repainted, red flowers ripped out of the ground, red fruit could not be bought or eaten - so green and yellow apples OK, red ones no - which is just batshit nuts.

Reminds me of "The Village". That's insane.

[Broomstick]

Stas, several leaders HAVE been put on trial and convicted. Warren Jeffs is in jail right now. It's not "standing" here, either, but we'd rather have the mess dismantled without bloodshed. There's no reason the people who have been most victimized should be needlessly put in danger. That was the major reason for getting as many women and children out of the compound as possible prior to moving in on the temple, which is where any showdown would be most likely to occur.

Then there's crazy shit like Jeffs announcing that red was reserved solely for God so every scrap of red cloth had to be thrown out, buildings repainted, red flowers ripped out of the ground, red fruit could not be bought or eaten - so green and yellow apples OK, red ones no - which is just batshit nuts.

Reminds me of "The Village". That's insane.

Yes, yes it is insane.

[FSTargetDrone]

This cult should be destroyed and it's head members put on trial. This shit should not stand and I believe it would not have stood in any European nation.

Indeed. And nothing would make me happier to see that "temple" on the grounds of that compound leveled and bulldozed into the ground.

Anyway, the 16 year-old who evidently made the call for help starting all of this has still not been located.

[Warsie]

Anyway, the 16 year-old who evidently made the call for help starting all of this has still not been located.

ditto..does anyone else see this as odd? it's been 2-3 days?