DW - Season Four Trailer (Spoiler)

[NecronLord]

Torchwood still seems to be a black hole of mediocrity, but how was UNIT "destroyed" in Episode 12? I can understand UNIT being pointlessly evil in a badly written spin-off (whch I gave up watching), but it could be retconned out in DW by explaining it was a rogue division of UNIT being dicks,

It's even easier to explain by it actually being a Torchwood facility; those guys were still around in force in those days; all they would have to do is put on some red berets and say 'this is a UNIT facility. There's certainly no reason for UNIT to care about advanced (not even alien) tech being stolen from the UK, they're the same guys who pulled guns on United Kingdom ministers when they tried to make a bilateral trade deal for alien technolology, they're hardly protectors of the Crown. Torchwood, on the other hand...

It could even be rationalised as a recruitment procedure; get the new recruits nice and resentful regarding the world's legitimate extraterrestrial contact authority, to inspire loyalty later.

[NecronLord]

GHETTO - Brian is fucking right. You know why the stupid novels sucked dick? VILLAN INFLATION. The Daleks fucking invaded Gallifrey and built a fucking galaxy and had temporal extinction bombs,

That's all from the audios. Which really didn't suck. Sure, they invaded Gallifrey. In a Trojan Horse kind of way; they were promptly destroyed en masse. Despite the tremendously over the top technology, I found The Apocalypse Element to be extremely well written and preformed, a worthy part of the nigh-perfect Dalek Empire continuity.

and yet... never won. Time Lords couldn't do jack shit either.

Oh, they could, they chose not to. And that's neither the fault of the books or the audios. You can blame Robert Holmes and The Deadly Assassin for that, which made them into incompetant, dusty old senators and academics whom the Master could happily run rings around in his sleep. If anything, the novels and audios often tried quite well to improve the Time Lords from what they were given in the series.

This is what we in the business call 'absurd bullshit that sucks shit through a straw due to being retarded'.

The novels also had the (fairly helpful) idea of wiping Gallifrey away, though they excecuted it poorly.

Constantly having guys defeated in huge awesome zomg battles and then just coming back is bullshit.

And established in the series long before the first novels. The Daleks were wiped out in their first serial (indeed, Invasion of Earth had the cunning idea of setting itself before The Daleks but unfortunately, that's untenable, and must essentially be dismissed as an offhand guess by the Doctor). So were the Cybermen. Doctor Who's villains have a long history of coming back from extinction, to expect any more permanance is... naive at best.

The overall BBC novel arc sucked because it involved extreme wank for entirely different reasons; not because things kept coming back or getting inflated; Faction Paradox was terribly powerful, the Time Lords were vulnerable, but ruthless and powerful. They essentially mutually annihilated. This stuck right until The Gallifrey Chronicles (which, as a stand alone book, is utterly superb) when a means of restoring the Time Lords was brought in, in order to mesh with the revived series' continuity.

The Faction Paradox arc sucked because it had hilarious wank like meme-weapons (which only work as conceptual asides and short stories, not with absurd things like changing Gallifrey's existance so that its people are getting shot on the street for stealing bread) and a Time Lord Voodoo Cult. They were quite consistantly terrifying and powerful, but very hard to take seriously as antagonists.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Yeah, I like the music too... but I guess the sound editor drops it all in where it isn't appropriate. In Utopia the music was used well, but in some episodes it's nearly a huge orchestal blast IN THE MIDDLE OF A CASUAL CONVERSATION.

That's certainly the problem. They don't do this with TW, but then that's only Murray Gold doing the theme and separate production crews. They really need to get a better editor, or just have the guy do how he did with the three-part finale last year.

UNIT's in S4, which is fine.

Except it sucks dick, because TW already destroyed UNIT. They're fascists stormtroopers now, worse than the US even. So I don't care if UNIT's in it.

LIES! UNIT never dies. It only comes back biggerer and betterer. Plus, they may be GRITTY and MEANIES after seeing Torchwood act like chief dicks for British jingoism.

I still believe the UNIT seen in the penultimate episode of TW season two was simply a Torchwood mimic.

[andrewgpaul]

How does the timing work out? Was Toshiko recruited after the Slitheen wiped out their UK commanding officers in Aliens of London? Perhaps that caused a change in procedures.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I can't remember, wasn't it five years prior to 2008 when Tosh was recruited? If so, it was before the events in "Aliens of London", so UNIT still had all their faculties then. That still doesn't preclude it from being a Torchwood shadow outfit working under the guise of UNIT.

[Lord Woodlouse]

How does the timing work out? Was Toshiko recruited after the Slitheen wiped out their UK commanding officers in Aliens of London? Perhaps that caused a change in procedures.

Tosh and Owen mention that, saying Tosh covered for Owen who was supposed to be the doctor checking out the "space pig". So it sounds like they were established at Torchwood when that all happened.

[andrewgpaul]

Ah, yes, I remember that bit. In that case, I'm talking pish.

[Patrick Degan]

Oh, they could, they chose not to. And that's neither the fault of the books or the audios. You can blame Robert Holmes and The Deadly Assassin for that, which made them into incompetant, dusty old senators and academics whom the Master could happily run rings around in his sleep.

I'd say that was more the subpar writing for the Gallifrey episodes that followed. "The Deadly Assassin" worked for the kind of satire Holmes was attempting to do. The correct creative decision from that point would have been to start building the Time Lords back up, strike a compromise vision between TDA and the Olympian Time Lords of "The War Games" (10). Sadly, that was not what we got in subsequent series.

[Stark]

Unimaginative crap is always bad, and the very later Gallifrey eps (that I've never seen because the 6th Doctor sucks too bad) were a terrible combination of wank and stupid. However, the old show made EVERYONE incredibly stupid, and 'someone else did it too' isn't an excuse for weak drama. NL saying 'lol Holmes' fault' when the novels/audios have TL's with fleets of War TARDISes and a relatively militant leader is just wrong: the EU Time Lords are almost nothing like the DA Time Lords. But hey, he liked the 'same basic plot three times' unimaginative Dalek Empire audios...

I think it's kinda funny that RTD is bringing back the worst character in DW right before he scarpers and doesn't have to deal with it. It's bad for the show, but it's still funny.

[NecronLord]

I'd say that was more the subpar writing for the Gallifrey episodes that followed. "The Deadly Assassin" worked for the kind of satire Holmes was attempting to do. The correct creative decision from that point would have been to start building the Time Lords back up, strike a compromise vision between TDA and the Olympian Time Lords of "The War Games" (10). Sadly, that was not what we got in subsequent series.

While the subsequent serials certainly have to bear a lot of the blame, I still find the very idea of the Master being able to run rings around (compare with the Q-like Time Lord in Terror of the Autons who seems to find the Master's tricks positively childish) the 'oldest and most mighty race in the universe' and effortlessly bamboozle these idiots who've forgotten what powers their very civilisation... preposterous. Any other random planet of politicians would have done just as well or better.

Unimaginative crap is always bad, and the very later Gallifrey eps (that I've never seen because the 6th Doctor sucks too bad) were a terrible combination of wank and stupid. However, the old show made EVERYONE incredibly stupid, and 'someone else did it too' isn't an excuse for weak drama. NL saying 'lol Holmes' fault' when the novels/audios have TL's with fleets of War TARDISes and a relatively militant leader is just wrong: the EU Time Lords are almost nothing like the DA Time Lords.

The relatively militant leader who never got anything done because of her inept fuddy duddy dusty senator minions? And really, a lack of imagination wasn't the problem with the Faction Paradox arc. It had bizzare shit like the Cold as weapons, and all sorts of other wierdness. It wasn't unimaginative (you're getting confused with the many other instances of 'time torpedos' and other such stuff) it was just beffudling and continuity obsessed, and rather silly.

But hey, he liked the 'same basic plot three times' unimaginative Dalek Empire audios...

Heh. Heh. Heh.

[Stark]

It was unimaginative because it was the same shit over and over with different names. How many 8th Doctor novels involved 'zomg paradox' or 'zomg superwank nonsense' and how many were actual adventure stories? The Time Lord side was unimaginative in a more common way, with the whole 'needs moar warz' approach (making the Time Lords dumb to make it happen, zomg looks like Rassilon Zagreus crap lol). Again, I'm not going to defend the stupid old show for it's suck: but it's *bad to do it* and other people doing it doesn't make it better. Happens all the time in comics too, it still sucks. It'd going to happen again with fucking Davros, a character so stupid it singlehandedly made all later Dalek stories complete balls, but it's still bad.

And don't blame me for the DE stuff. They're technically very good, have a good cast, and are samey, contrived, predictable nonsense. Given that it's basically Dalek fanwank, that's not surprising, but come on. Oh no, the Daleks have ANOTHER forced plot involving hilariously poor misdirection! What's most amusing is that the Cyberman one is almost exactly the same as well (although different in detail and not as polished overall). I've not heard the UNIT ones, but they have the same reek of fanfiction about them.

But I'm just bitter because S4 looks so terrible, so don't mind me.

[NecronLord]

It was unimaginative because it was the same shit over and over with different names. How many 8th Doctor novels involved 'zomg paradox' or 'zomg superwank nonsense' and how many were actual adventure stories?

Eh. Until they got wrapped up in making him amnesiac over and over again, most of them were adventure stories. Like I said, they do suck, but not for the reasons you say.

The Time Lord side was unimaginative in a more common way, with the whole 'needs moar warz' approach (making the Time Lords dumb to make it happen, zomg looks like Rassilon Zagreus crap lol).

Which is again, audios not novels. I've kept the hell away from the Zagreus crap, though again, it's plenty imaginative, what with all the people the CIA have excecuted in dispersal chambers coming back to haunt them, and so on, so forth. It's not actually the same thing over and over again. Its particular suck seems mostly from (Don Warrington aside) a Rassilon character assassination.

Again, I'm not going to defend the stupid old show for it's suck: but it's *bad to do it* and other people doing it doesn't make it better. Happens all the time in comics too, it still sucks. It'd going to happen again with fucking Davros, a character so stupid it singlehandedly made all later Dalek stories complete balls, but it's still bad.

Eh. Rememberance was one of the few very good serials from that time.

And don't blame me for the DE stuff. They're technically very good, have a good cast, and are samey, contrived, predictable nonsense. Given that it's basically Dalek fanwank, that's not surprising, but come on. Oh no, the Daleks have ANOTHER forced plot involving hilariously poor misdirection!

Mmm. Far be it for villains to be cunning.

Now the Mentor daleks, those are fanwank. But frankly, they're amusing, entertaining fanwank. And that is all that matters.

[NecronLord]

To summarise, it's not a lack of imagination (endless eighth doctor memory loss aside) or re-doing the same thing that makes a lot of the spinoffs (esp. the novels) suck. They suck because they're poorly written and unengaging.

[Stark]

I've gotta ask what books you're reading. A quick flick through the list turns up way more 'oh no time problem 187' than 'Doctor goes somewhere and does something interesting'. Let's cruise around with a vortigaunt in the TARDIS! Oh no Charley is a paradox! All EU's make the mistake of wanking everything from the source material, but again, that doesn't make it 'good' just because everyone does it.

Aha you fell into my trap! Rememberance has Davros for like twelve seconds! Of course it avoids his terrible curse of failure!

Don't strawman me, NL. I didn't say it was bad that they're 'cunning' (pretty weak cunning but whatever), it's bad that it's so samey and contrived. I think it's telling that you think it's totally okay that it's stupid because it's 'entertaining'. It's *boring*! They had a cool idea, and a quite good first run, and then just... did it again. Twice.

[Stark]

GHETTO - I'd only tentatively agree: constantly going to the same themes (the few books/audios that can even be said to HAVE a theme rather than a fanfiction agenda) is what made it crap and unengaging. Some of them (like the early 8th Doctor ones) were fine if a bit naff. It's EU disease: building on each other is fine, but it's not the original universe anymore. The audios admitted it, and it seems there's two branches of later 8th Doctor stuff due to an attempt to link it up to the series.

Even a stupid fanwank idea can be good if you're not retarded, you're right. The first DE series shows that.

[NecronLord]

I've gotta ask what books you're reading. A quick flick through the list turns up way more 'oh no time problem 187' than 'Doctor goes somewhere and does something interesting'. Let's cruise around with a vortigaunt in the TARDIS! Oh no Charley is a paradox! All EU's make the mistake of wanking everything from the source material, but again, that doesn't make it 'good' just because everyone does it.

Oh no, indeed. And for all the suck of Zagerus, you can have something that's actually self contained and works, like Stones of Blood or Sword of Orion. There's even the same kind of sillyness done right, see Lucy Miller in Human Resources; which, not coincidentally, also contains lord wank done right.

Aha you fell into my trap! Rememberance has Davros for like twelve seconds! Of course it avoids his terrible curse of failure!

And? He works there for an entirely different reason, unlike the fail episodes between Genesis and Rememberance, the daleks aren't helpless brainless idiots (though Revelation wasn't terrible; the bit with the real daleks appearing and dragging Davros off for 'trial' was good) desperate for his genius; so long as they don't reduce the daleks to that, it should be quite possible to write a new series episode that avoids the same kind of inadequacies, as, say, Destiny

Don't strawman me, NL. I didn't say it was bad that they're 'cunning' (pretty weak cunning but whatever), it's bad that it's so samey and contrived. I think it's telling that you think it's totally okay that it's stupid because it's 'entertaining'. It's *boring*! They had a cool idea, and a quite good first run, and then just... did it again. Twice.

Have you actually heard them? Also, it's three times, now. How can you not like Dalek Empire 3? It's hilarious. 'Healing Zones' indeed.

But no. The objective is to entertain. If it entertains me, I adjudge it good, and if it fails, I deem it bad. The amount of uber-wank doesn't really matter; see Human Resources for an example of tech-wank done right, unless it breaks my SoD.

[Stark]

Bah, lost my post in the update.

I can agree with your first two points: Davros ruined shit because his presence turned the Daleks into large impotent simpering robots instead of aggressive space nazis. I'm not a fan of the hippy 'human factor' crap from the 60s either, but at least it went away. And Human Resources was cool.

And I can't remember what I said about DE. I know there's three (again twice = 3) but I haven't actually heard the third lot. The 'healing zone' thing sounds pretty galling, with the Daleks able to quickly terraform a planet but being somehow unable to conquer the weaker galaxy without their stupid plan, and it being another rehash of 'Daleks create problem then pose as solution and the kindergarten political stuff means they win oh no they lose at the end lol' plot.

But I'm about drama, not so much events: if something works dramatically, I don't care how stupid it is (like Parting of the Ways, for instance). Nonsense just really turns me off, like throwing an 8th Doctor novel away as soon as I realise it's another fucking time paradox lololol story.

[NecronLord]

And I can't remember what I said about DE. I know there's three (again twice = 3) but I haven't actually heard the third lot.

The faith you hold in my math skills is awesome, isn't it? There's four series. The fourth one is... interesting. It's sort of a 'space elite forces' story, but it goes down a rather unexpected angle, and avoids being cliche.

The 'healing zone' thing sounds pretty galling, with the Daleks able to quickly terraform a planet but being somehow unable to conquer the weaker galaxy without their stupid plan,

It was never said that they couldn't. They just wanted more troops. The war in DE 3 never really starts. I get the feeling the idea might be that after that point, they go off to fight the Time War. Its actual ending, though, is uncertain. They're not actually defeated in DE3.

[Stark]

Oh I see, I didn't know that. The Healing zone one is the third lot, though, right? I'm not totally mad?

[NecronLord]

Oh I see, I didn't know that. The Healing zone one is the third lot, though, right? I'm not totally mad?

That's the one, yep.

DE3 is very much the run up to a war, and DE4 is set further back in time, during DE1. I get the feeling that we'll never see the post-DE3 war, which is perhaps for the best, as the conclusion is rather along the lines of 'the Daleks are probably going to kill everything' which fits rather well with Cpt. Jack's comment about 'one minute they're the biggest threat in the universe.'

[Dartzap]

Indepedent online

Spoiler alert, sort of.

You know your in the big leagues when you appears on Doctor Who!

[Imperial Overlord]

Bah,. I know there's three (again twice = 3) but I haven't actually heard the third lot. The 'healing zone' thing sounds pretty galling, with the Daleks able to quickly terraform a planet but being somehow unable to conquer the weaker galaxy without their stupid plan, and it being another rehash of 'Daleks create problem then pose as solution and the kindergarten political stuff means they win oh no they lose at the end lol' plot.

The Daleks are nearly totally wiped out at the end of DE2 (down to something like a single surviving Dalek outpost), so they don't have the manpower and resources to pull off the shit they could in DE1 and DE2. Thus the sneaky shit while they rebuild their warmachine. If they had their DE1 forces and resources, DE3 would be just them steamrolling everybody.

[Dartzap]

Beeb

Short trailer up for next weeks ep. That monster looks nifty.

[Big Orange]

Here's a brief clip from "Planet of the Ood" (select the top right picture on the right featuring a human guard; minor spoilers).

Also I heard rumors about the upcoming Christmas Special apparently it is going to be set in Victorian England and supposedly features Cybermen.