nBSG Episode 401: "He That Believeth In Me"

[Thanas]

They didn't stop them. What happened is that Galactica put up a flak barrier and the raiders broke formation to avoid that flak barrier. And if Anders wasn't scanned, the fleet would be toast.

Gaeta says the Vipers stopped the thrust. Galactica used flak effectively as always but their pilots are explicitly credited with stopping the Raiders. I suppose their new-ish tactic of missile-spamming with Raptors continues to yield some very positive results.

Rewatching the episode, you are right in that they stopped the main thrust. Not knowing how huge that one is (could be anything from 100+) I don't really think we can say really that much about the Cylon performance.

[Anguirus]

^ Gaeta says it's "200+." Adama yells "Take 'em out!" Cut to VFX. Back to CIC. "The Vipers stopped the main thrust but the reserves have broken through to the fleet."

(Can you tell I've been watching this ep a bit on Sci-fi rewind?)

Did anyone else think for just a moment that Tigh himself was going to head for the hanger deck when Adama told him to order everyone who knew how to fly to get into space? It would have been totally implausible, but it would have been the height of awesome to have an old, one-eyed, washed up, alcholic, human model Cylon strap into a Viper.

I actually did! Especially because rumor has it that the elder Adama is going to jump in a Viper at some point during the season.

Had it not been for the Raider being spooked by Sam, for whatever reason, they'd have lost it. I still don't buy that Sam, Tigh and so on are the Final Five.

Not to dispute your crazy theory Valdemar (heck, I could see them somehow pulling a big fake-out on this), but then how do you explain Anders' eye glowing red?

[Thanas]

^ Gaeta says it's "200+." Adama yells "Take 'em out!" Cut to VFX. Back to CIC. "The Vipers stopped the main thrust but the reserves have broken through to the fleet."

(Can you tell I've been watching this ep a bit on Sci-fi rewind?)

How many of those are the main thrust and how many are the reserves? How many are targetting the fleet, how many are targeting galactica? Because it makes a big difference if their main thrust is targeting galactica and is composed of 120+ fighters, while their reserves (aka the rest) are breaking through to the fleet.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Not to dispute your crazy theory Valdemar (heck, I could see them somehow pulling a big fake-out on this), but then how do you explain Anders' eye glowing red?

I can't, unless it was just a reaction from the Raider scanning him. If he is a Cylon, then they've had a group of infiltrators in the fleet with perfect access for any potential sabotage since the beginning. Which now makes a lot of their tricks seem like ploys to see how the humans cope, rather than truly taking them down.

I can't help but think something like Total Recall as I watched that again last night. The whole story is a big set-up in that respect simply to try and get Ah-nuld to get to somewhere and some people without the idea that he's being forced to do it and then betray such people. It sounds like something the Cylons would do; try and get the humans to find Earth, but not give them the impression that they're simply being pursued through space with ease. And when they find Earth, who knows? Maybe the Cylons are just as keen to find out about the Final Five and other things themselves, or maybe they just want to destroy them and the Terrans once and for all.

[Anguirus]

^ IIRC, it's ambiguous if the group of "200+" is the "main thrust" or not. The cross-cutting used in the scene makes me tend to associate them but it's not set in stone. I still get the impression that Galactica's alert fighters (Anders isn't even out the tube yet) dealt a substantial tactical setback in a short time.

Also, consider that 200 Raiders is actually a fraction of the forces available to a group of four basestars. Even though the sequence is amazing in many ways, it STILL feels like the Cylons are holding back here...as others have noted, they didn't even use nukes.

[Thanas]

^Nor did they immediately launch ship-to-ship missiles, which is unlike their usual tactic of deploying both fighters and launching missiles immediately.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Then maybe Adama and others will start dwelling on the subject and wonder whether they're being played or not. They knew something was up when the fleet pulled back and retreated even though four Basestars are more than enough to wipe out the Colonials. I'd expect Starbuck appearing and that 11th hour salvation from the Cylons to further increase the paranoia.

[Zac Naloen]

Not to dispute your crazy theory Valdemar (heck, I could see them somehow pulling a big fake-out on this), but then how do you explain Anders' eye glowing red?

I can't, unless it was just a reaction from the Raider scanning him. If he is a Cylon, then they've had a group of infiltrators in the fleet with perfect access for any potential sabotage since the beginning. Which now makes a lot of their tricks seem like ploys to see how the humans cope, rather than truly taking them down.

I can't help but think something like Total Recall as I watched that again last night. The whole story is a big set-up in that respect simply to try and get Ah-nuld to get to somewhere and some people without the idea that he's being forced to do it and then betray such people. It sounds like something the Cylons would do; try and get the humans to find Earth, but not give them the impression that they're simply being pursued through space with ease. And when they find Earth, who knows? Maybe the Cylons are just as keen to find out about the Final Five and other things themselves, or maybe they just want to destroy them and the Terrans once and for all.

My theory is that the cylons don't know what the "final" five are up to. ( I actually think they are going to end up being the first five)

They aren't evil Cylons, they have a completely separate set of objectives, they may well be the ones with the "plan". A plan which probably involves, for whatever reason, getting the colonials to Earth.

I also think they could hold over from the last time all this happened (remember all the references to "all this has happened before and will happen again"). Possibly even the 13th Tribe.

[Vertigo1]

The only thing that pissed me off was that its a fucking two-parter!

That being said, Roslyn is one stupid bitch! I mean, how fucking hard is it to send out Kara and a small contingent in a raptor to even see if she's telling the truth?!

[Thanas]

^Because maybe Roslin thinks that Kara would lead them to be captured and give the cylons coordinates back to the fleet?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Exactly. Trusting Kara in that case is too risky given they don't even know her full story is legit.

[Vertigo1]

^Because maybe Roslin thinks that Kara would lead them to be captured and give the cylons coordinates back to the fleet?

And her sending Kara to get the arrow wouldn't do the same thing? Seems to me that Roslyn is a little finicky about things like that.

[Admiral Valdemar]

And her sending Kara to get the arrow wouldn't do the same thing? Seems to me that Roslyn is a little finicky about things like that.

The circumstances aren't the same. Kara has potentially been compromised so she can't be trusted like she could when retrieving the arrow.

[Oddysseus]

Whoever took Starbuck off, assuming she didn't die, isn't a Cylon, etc. Really seems to like to dink around. They take her away in a way that makes it seem impossible she can return. Then return her in a way, with Cylons everywhere, and her just popping up in their midst suddenly, that is suspicious. Then give her a ship that is clearly not hers. Then she is allowed to return with pictures of Earth, but no logs of her travel. And then they just plop in some intuitive homing beacon in her head, which seems to make her go mad.

Do they actually want them to get to Earth? Or is this some cosmic force enjoying jerking its pawns around for a laugh.

I suppose there is some lessons they want the colonials to learn first. Almost makes me think I am watching Voyager, where the journey was more important than the destination"...almost, mind you.

[Gil Hamilton]

And her sending Kara to get the arrow wouldn't do the same thing? Seems to me that Roslyn is a little finicky about things like that.

Don't you think that's a little different? Kara just got back from being dead (and in fact they had a VIDEO of her ship blowing up) in a fighter that was designed to superficially look like hers but wasn't. Not only that, but she did it sometime during a black out when a MASSIVE CYLON FLEET showed up.

It's hard to put together from the Colonial perspective that she is a Cylon infiltrator -- after all, what's the point? The Cylons don't need to destroy them from within when they can destroy them the old fashioned way (by shooting them to death). However, it's much too much of a coincidence to be ignored, particularly since, for some reason, the Cylons decided to up and bug out the moment she rejoined the fleet. THEN on questioning, she comes up crazy as a jay with a clearly fabricated story (and a fabricated ship) and not a shred of evidence to the contrary.

It would be somewhat mad for Roslin to trust her at this point, because Kara has clearly been compromised by SOMETHING and the only other team out there that they know of is the Cylons.

[Gil Hamilton]

It should also be noted from the Colonial perspective, Kara just showing up is a familiar story. It isn't the first time the Cylons coughed up someone they thought was dead (Bulldog) and sent him to the fleet, in order to do something. She doesn't even have to be a Cylon for that, either.

[Thanas]

^Thats a very good point. Furthermore, Kara sending to get the arrow was Roslin's own idea and basically a last ditch effort.

Besides, the chances of a loyal pilots getting captured while using captured enemy equipment is much lower than the chances of a legally-declared-dead-pilot-who-just-happens-to-show-up-with-the-magic-solution-to the-problem-of-finding-earth lying.

[Ford Prefect]

If he is a Cylon, then they've had a group of infiltrators in the fleet with perfect access for any potential sabotage since the beginning. Which now makes a lot of their tricks seem like ploys to see how the humans cope, rather than truly taking them down.

Actually, Valdy, I'm pretty sure they haven't had a bnuch of infiltrators in the fleet since the beginning. The first seven Cylons never knew who the final five were, and they're not even supposed to think about them. It strikes me that given that the pursuing Cylons have no idea what the final five even look like, I doubt they could use them for sabotage or anything of the sort. I can understand why they're worried about pulling a Boomer, but if they do it won't be because of the other Cylons.

The Raider clearly reacted to Sam in the way that the chromes are supposed to - they cannot refuse a human Cylon order, regardless of who they are. Obviously we'll seen the reactions of the other lot in the next episode, but nothing so far has suggested that the final five are actually under the command of other Cylons, and everything else implies that they are not.

[Steven Snyder]

It should also be noted from the Colonial perspective, Kara just showing up is a familiar story. It isn't the first time the Cylons coughed up someone they thought was dead (Bulldog) and sent him to the fleet, in order to do something. She doesn't even have to be a Cylon for that, either.

A slight issue with that...but I am not doubting the validity of what you said.

But why didn't any of the colonials bring up the obvious question.

'Why would the cylons provide Starbuck with a distinctly different Viper?"

The thing was literally off the factory floor new. The damned thing was sitting there gleaming in it's pristine shape in stark contrast to everything around it. If you are trying to pull off a deception, sending someone back with such a blatant discrepancy isn't going to help your case.

In the case of Bulldog, the cylons made an effort to have it look legitimate by faking the escape and ensuing pursuit. In this case, everything boldly screams that something is out of order.

As for the Raider/Anders. It seems clear that the raider recognized Anders for who/what he is and immediately communicated this to the other raiders. The raiders have some sort of loyalty to the final five which transcends their orders to destroy the fleet.
What an odd situation, where the skinjobs order an attack on the colonials and the Raiders and Centurions say 'No'.

This line of thought takes me way back to when Anders was on Caprica and trying to escape but were caught and pinned in by Centurions. Eventually the gunfire stopped and the next morning they went out to find all the Cylons gone, did the Centurions recognize Anders back there and pulled out? I assumed it was Brother Cavel's that aborted their attack but maybe it wasn't.

[Gil Hamilton]

I would think because it's possible that whoever is responsible for Kara only needed to GET her on the ship and he old ship was exploded. The fact is that she's been gone for two months and her ship blew up in the presence of someone who returned to the fleet. Her story already doesn't add up, even if they somehow managed to put her in a duplicate of the Viper they nabbed her in. The Viper in question only had to be good enough to permit her to get aboard and all they may have had was a cherry one.

Also, it's distinctly possible that Kara literally didn't know that any time had passed, so only the inside of the cockpit needed to be convincing. She can't see the outside of her ship to make the connection, after all, and they needed to fool HER. Chances are if they knew Starbuck, they'd know if they stuffed her head full of information about Earth, she'd saunter out looking for a hero's welcome and not even look at her ship (that is for scrub mechanics). Only later would she find out it was a clear forgery and by that point she'd be so stubborn and full of crazy it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Deathstalker]

Chances are if they knew Starbuck, they'd know if they stuffed her head full of information about Earth, she'd saunter out looking for a hero's welcome and not even look at her ship (that is for scrub mechanics).

No chance she wouldn't realize it was a new Viper. No pilot, especially a fighter pilot, would go up in a ship she didn't walk around or know the faults and quirks of that particular ship. When Starbuck got in that Viper, she new it was beat up and patched, held together by spit and faith.

[Gil Hamilton]

No chance she wouldn't realize it was a new Viper. No pilot, especially a fighter pilot, would go up in a ship she didn't walk around or know the faults and quirks of that particular ship. When Starbuck got in that Viper, she new it was beat up and patched, held together by spit and faith.

Keep in mind that she wouldn't have memories of getting in it. She wakes up and sees Apollo and an Cylon armada with a bunch of memories of having continuously flying her bird. Would it be immediately obvious in the heat of it all that she was flying a forgery of her own?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Keep in mind that she wouldn't have memories of getting in it. She wakes up and sees Apollo and an Cylon armada with a bunch of memories of having continuously flying her bird. Would it be immediately obvious in the heat of it all that she was flying a forgery of her own?

No. If anything she'd be wondering what was going on with the fleet and how to help. Then, later, we see her question Sam's wearing of a jocksmock, which would be strange given he was still in training when she left them a couple of months before.

Therefore, it's clear she didn't realise anything was amiss until she was aboard The Bucket and noticed the reactions people gave her.

[FSTargetDrone]

A slight issue with that...but I am not doubting the validity of what you said.

But why didn't any of the colonials bring up the obvious question.

'Why would the cylons provide Starbuck with a distinctly different Viper?"

The thing was literally off the factory floor new. The damned thing was sitting there gleaming in it's pristine shape in stark contrast to everything around it. If you are trying to pull off a deception, sending someone back with such a blatant discrepancy isn't going to help your case.

Especialy because it would be a trivial matter for whatever/whoever "returned" her in this new ship to make it look weathered and in poor repair, as it was when last seen by the Colonials.

[Old Plympto]

I'd just like to say that this preoccupation by the head-beings about the One True God can go one of two ways.

1. This "God" is a living, non-supernatural entity which will reveal itself at the end of the series as a mindfuck, in whatever way Ron Moore has conceived it to be - whether it makes us go "Fucking awesome!" or "Meh!"

2. It's somehow the real God, in the end making no sense at all in a story, because it's literally Deux Ex Machine or Ex Moore's Ass or something like that. In which case, it'll be the most disappointing case of jumping the shark in the history of TV.