[Macross]Yet another I need advice with a coworker thread

[Darth Wong]

It's probably for the best that I don't know if she is single or not, its become apparent from what I have read here that I am still not ready.

Do you know what you need to do? Go ask girls out before you have invested so much emotional attachment to them. You have to do this a few times in order to improve, and it would help if you didn't have such high expectations going in.

[LadyTevar]

But, I suppose its a moot point now. I'm going to be leaving at the end of the month anyway and I'm planning to say goodbye to her as I would any other coworker.

It's probably for the best that I don't know if she is single or not, its become apparent from what I have read here that I am still not ready.

That is the biggest crock of sour grapes I've ever heard.

You had you chance, you let it slip away. YOU FUCKED UP. Don't try to whitewash your actions claiming 'you weren't ready'. That just screams perma-virgin, which you will be if you don't get you head outta your ass and try to actually get out and socialize like a normal person.

[aerius]

There's only one way to "be ready", and that's by doing. You can think and analyze yourself till the cows come home and you still won't be ready. You don't learn how to drive a car by thinking about it and sitting in it when the damn thing's parked in a garage. You have to start the damn engine and actually drive. Same thing with love and relationships, you have to go and do.

[ANGELUS]

No, I don't think she would be creeped out. She already knows about the abnormal difficulties I experienced with socialization while growing up. It was actually one of the first things we talked about when a mutual friend was experiencing some severe mental health issues and I explained to her what was happening, why it was happening, and how she could help.

So I don't think it would come as any big surprise to her that I don't know what I am doing.

So instead of been creeped out she'll feel pity? that isn't exactly an improvement for your situation.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

I'll second Colonel Olriks approach, it works. Hell my wife and I almost fucked on the first date.

My wife and I had a very similar first date. Must be a trend.

On topic: One of my ex-coworkers was laid off about a month and a half ago after working here for about 6 months. Last week he came in and asked out one of my female coworkers by starting out with "I know we didn't talk much when I worked here, but..." The first thing she thought was "Oh my god, he's going to wear my skin." Ever since then he's been a huge joke with everyone making references to him being a serial killer, etc.

The lesson: if you wait too long, not only will you lose your opportunity, but you'll make a name for yourself as the creepy guy who makes lampshades out of his neighbors. Then it will be even harder for you to get a date.

[Darth Wong]

I was wondering if he would elaborate on his earlier statements about how he was so sure the woman would react as expected, but it looks like he isn't planning to. So ...

If this girl ever finds out that he's been pining for her since 2006, she'll be creeped out big-time. From his perspective, he's been taking his time and waiting for the perfect moment (as if that's a good strategy). From her perspective, she just found out that this guy who she thought was a friendly coworker has actually been a secret admirer for two years, and for all she knows he has a creepy shrine in his apartment full of clandestine pictures of her.

No, I don't think she would be creeped out.

And you say this based on your extensive knowledge of women?

She already knows about the abnormal difficulties I experienced with socialization while growing up. It was actually one of the first things we talked about when a mutual friend was experiencing some severe mental health issues and I explained to her what was happening, why it was happening, and how she could help.

So I don't think it would come as any big surprise to her that I don't know what I am doing.

There's a pretty big difference between "I'm socially awkward" and "I've been carrying a torch for you since 2006". Only one of them is going to creep a woman out. Guess which one.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Another thing is people may be sympathetic to social awkwardness, historical injustices, terrible childhoods - all those general things which deflect blame and responsibility and sometimes fairly too. But she is under no obligation to endure the consequences of your poor social skills. People are sympathetic but even if your issues have good causes, that won't make them less problematic or alarming when you have endure them because the awkward and dysfunctional guy in question is and has been obsessed with you.

Girls are not attracted to guys like that; they know guys like that develop idealistic obsession because they're afraid to get to know women and treat them as real peers. They know guys like that don't have much experience or are very desirable mates because otherwise they wouldn't be obsessive. Laid back guys - in the social sense, not necessarily professionally, academically, etc. - are secure with themselves. And if other people are comfortable with a man who seems personally secure, then it removes a lot of potential risk a girl has to deal with.

[Macross]

I really don’t know what to say.

I admit I made mistakes. I admit I don’t know what I am doing. That’s why I asked for advice.

It is very easy to confuse shyness and a social disorder. I was labeled as shy and many believed that all I needed was a little bit of encouragement or motivation. That’s not how it works. This was not something that you simply outgrow, or can be overcome with happy thoughts and positive thinking.

In Junior High School, my guidance counselor once lectured me for not participating in some sporting activity. The vice principle once expressed his “sad disappointment” in me when I chose to exclude myself from some other group event. A “Special Education” teacher even threatened me with detention for not participating in a group. Socialize or be punished? Well it worked, and as a result I became my own worst enemy.

It was always difficult for me to make new friends or meet new people. I could never ask a question in class, nor could I answer a question when called upon by the teacher. I always said “I don’t know” even if I knew answer. Just having everyone’s attention on me made it impossible for me to think straight.

The other kids had picked up on my weakness and they were merciless, I just kept getting pushed deeper and deeper into a shell. Because of this shell, I missed out on that whole phase in adolescent where boys and girls start to notice each other and date. In High School there was a girl who I had been infatuated with, but every time I tried to talk to her I would get cold feet. I did not understand why talking to a girl was so difficult for me when my friends and classmates made it look effortless.

I always half-heartedly joked that there had to be something wrong with me, when their really was something wrong with me though I didn’t understand it at the time. It was only after I was properly diagnosed that I understood that the nervousness I felt every time I tried to talk to a girl is what psychiatrists refer to as an “anxiety attack”.

The same words that I used to describe what I felt when I had one of these attacks are the same words that are used to describe what it is to feel nervous. I thought these anxiety attacks were normal, I thought everyone felt them. Nervousness is when you have to give a speech in front of a full room of people, but you can do it anyway. For me, nervousness was debilitating and it was crippling.

It was uncontrollable stress, a stomach turning illness, the loss of the ability to think clearly and the loss of the ability to speak. That’s what it was like for me every time I tried to talk to that girl in High School, that’s what it was like every time I tried to talk to a girl in college, and I thought this was normal. Even something as simple as saying “Hello” could become an impossible task. I did not have any experience to tell me otherwise.

When I was finally diagnosed, I learned that none of the problems I had experienced had been my fault. Do any of you have any idea what its like to discover that you are not the person you thought you were? Twenty years of your life clouded and inhibited by some medical disorder that can be treated. When all the doctors, experts, and specialists, whose job it was to identify these kinds of problems had all missed it!

It was liberating to know that their had been a reason, but I thought the damage had already been done, I thought it was too late for me to start all over. Then I met her, and I felt like I had been given a second chance. But I wasn’t ready yet. Over the next two years I had to rediscover everything about myself.

So, when I finally felt like I was ready for the next step, I discover that she is probably already in a relationship? I have spent the past few days going over everything I learned in the past few years, trying to figure out exactly how I could have been so mistaken. She never once gave me any indication that she was in a happy relationship.

I may not know a whole lot about relationships or signs when someone is interested in you, but I do know when someone is hiding their true emotional state, after all, I did it for years. She never came across as someone in a relationship.

Even people who have know her a lot better and a lot longer then I have could not tell me if she was in a relationship. She comes across as professional, dedicated to her work, never talks about her personal life, and always seems a bit sad or lonely when alone.

The only time she ever really seemed happy was when she was talking to me. Her eyes would light up and her smile brightened. She always listened to what I had to say, and always treated me with a warmth, kindness and thoughtfulness that went beyond her professionalism.

Everything I thought I had learned told me she wasn’t in a relationship. I was even confident that she wasn’t relationship. That’s why I am so baffled and confused.

So what else can I do? I can not tell her my true feelings. I care too much for her and her happiness to interfere in her life. The last thing I want to do is upset her, make her uncomfortable, or come across as a creepy guy. All I can do it say goodbye and walk away.

How can I move on when there were so many mistakes that never seemed like mistakes?
I did not immediately accept the obvious because I believed there was more to the story.
When does confidence become arrogance?
When does hopefulness become blindness?

[Darth Wong]

Dude, I'm sorry for your misfortune. I really am. I don't know what it would be like to be in your shoes, and I suppose I've always taken it for granted that I can talk to women without getting nervous. I know some of the things people have said in this thread may seem cruel to you; I don't believe they are actually intended that way. People believe that they need to say these things in order to light a fire under your ass.

Having said that, all I can say is that you need to pick yourself up and try again. But this time, don't build a woman up in your mind before you try to ask her out. Just go for it as soon as you sense that you can converse with this person in a friendly manner. The worst thing she can do is shoot you down, and if you haven't invested that much into it, then you'll see that it isn't the end of the world when it happens.

At some point, you just have to hold your breath and jump into the water.

[Colonel Olrik]

So what else can I do? I can not tell her my true feelings. I care too much for her and her happiness to interfere in her life. The last thing I want to do is upset her, make her uncomfortable, or come across as a creepy guy. All I can do it say goodbye and walk away.

No, damnit, you have more options. I'm sorry for being harsh to you, but as you know these things are tough. They're more difficult for you than for me and most, but don't think for a moment that we were born with a "how to speak with women smooth and not nervous" knowledge - I at least wasn't. I had to work for it and gain experience. Now, damnit, now I can get women every fucking time I go out. It's highly ironic that you usually get a girlfriend when you're on top of the game.

Regarding your situation right NOW, if conversations between the two of you are as pleasant as you say they are, I'll give you advice, and trust me, it's from experience. One of the next times you're with her tell her that you're thinking of leaving/accepted a job offer elsewhere/whatever. Do a bit of small talk after that (a revelation like this has to be followed by some talk!) and at some point tell her that you enjoy her company and would like to keep seeing her. If she agrees RIGHT AWAY and gives you her contact details, take the chance to ask her if she wouldn't like to meet outside work next week, as a replacement of the times you meet during work. If not, consider the rejection a further step in your treatment and proceed to do what Mike and others have just said.

Who the fuck knows, maybe she's also an introvert and is really single as you think she is and also fancies you. NOBODY HERE KNOWS HER EXCEPT YOU.

I have a girlfriend and still know the relationship status of basically all the women I know, so given that you're not an absolute retard it strikes me as odd that you'd be dead wrong about someone you've been talking to for more than 2 years. I certainly have attractive female friends who have been out of a relationship for that long, besides the occasional guy once in a while, so it's possible.

[Macross]

Dude, I'm sorry for your misfortune. I really am. I don't know what it would be like to be in your shoes, and I suppose I've always taken it for granted that I can talk to women without getting nervous. I know some of the things people have said in this thread may seem cruel to you; I don't believe they are actually intended that way. People believe that they need to say these things in order to light a fire under your ass.

Having said that, all I can say is that you need to pick yourself up and try again. But this time, don't build a woman up in your mind before you try to ask her out. Just go for it as soon as you sense that you can converse with this person in a friendly manner. The worst thing she can do is shoot you down, and if you haven't invested that much into it, then you'll see that it isn't the end of the world when it happens.

At some point, you just have to hold your breath and jump into the water.

Thank you. I guess I should have described my situation better in my original post, but honestly, the thought never occurred to me. I am not ashamed of my past or who I am today, this is something I thought was all behind me or irrelevant to the current situation. I see now that it is necessary to properly put my situation into context.

I don’t hold anything against anybody who I believe is trying to help. After I was diagnosed, I was able to forgive all those teachers, doctors, guidance counselors that had misunderstood me. How could I remain angry at someone who believed they were helping me?

As for this current situation, I still believe that their may be a chance. I have been under the assumption that she could not have been showing interest in me and in a relationship at the same time. The two ideas seemed mutually exclusive, but what if they are not?

If I knew she was happy, then I could walk away. But I don’t believe that she is happy. She always left me with the impression that she was unhappy and lonely, and that’s why it was difficult for me to accept that she was in a relationship. In fact, I would say that she has become increasingly more depressed over the past few months, since the time she bought the house. It was also around this time she started becoming distant to me.

I know that women can sometimes settle down with someone for the wrong reasons, and I believe that this is the case. Before any one says that I already had a chance and she didn’t pick me, I believe I understand why she did not pick me. A month or two before she bought the house, I had asked for her for advice if I should stay or leave. I did not get a promotion and this would affect my future plans. I wanted to let her know that I valued her advice. She was supportive and wanted to be kept informed of my decision, but I must have said something that left her with the wrong impression that I could be leaving at any moment…Anyway, this other guy would have looked like the “safer” choice.

In my defense, I didn’t know there was anyone else, if I knew, I probably would have said what I said to her differently. The whole point was to let her know that I had bigger plans and ambitions and I valued her input.

This is busiest time of year at work, daily production quotas, deadlines, accuracy percentages, etc. Very tense, very stressful. So, naturally, these past few months are spent preparing for this time of year. Last year, we received word that this year we would be getting a heavier work load; we were being “rewarded” for our excellent performance in the past. So end of last year (the time she bought the house) was spent making sure that we were able to handle the increased work load.

To help us through this time of year, we bring in temporary workers and it is her job to oversee the training program. Knowing that this is going to be the biggest, most demanding year ever, when our performance expectations have never been higher, what does she decide to do? Scrap the existing, proven system and start over from scratch with a new, experimental system…

We are only given a small margin for error, if we let too many mistakes get through, we lose our contract and the place gets shut down. Even my coworker, the one who I confided in, once said to me “I don’t know what she is doing.” So, am I expected to believe that she has taken on this extra burden at work, making her job a lot more difficult and stressful, making everyone else’s job a lot more difficult and stressful, making an already difficult situation even worse, and she throws herself into it all the while she is supposed to be settling into a new living-arrangement in a happy relationship? No, I don’t think so.

So today, I consulted another coworker, someone who has known her for a while. I pointed out some of the observations I had made, and my coworker seemed genuinely surprised by them. My coworker didn’t really know what to say, but the look on her face told me that I was making sense and she would have to think about it.

I have found hope, now I need to give her hope. She still has that glimmer in her eyes when she looks at me, I need to let her know that I am still an option and it’s not too late. I know this wont be an easy decision for her and I am prepared to live with her decision.

Time to take the plunge.

[Anguirus]

Good luck!

[LadyTevar]

Macross
Give it the fuck up. You are sounding more stalker-esque than ever.

[Darth Wong]

Macross, don't try to read all kinds of things into facial expressions or vocal inflections. Men are notoriously bad at reading these things, even when they've been married for years. Don't trust too much in your instincts; you have not had enough experience to develop those instincts.

If you must ask her, then ask. But don't build this up into anything more than it is: a guy who has a crush on a girl. If you don't know whether she has a boyfriend, simply ask her. If she says "yes", then don't say all of that other shit you were planning on saying. This isn't rocket science.

[Macross]

Good advice. I will keep it simple, and try not get my hopes up.

[Macross]

Macross
Give it the fuck up. You are sounding more stalker-esque than ever.

Ok, I know I sound over-eager, but this isn't something thats spontaneous or completely random. There is something between us, their is history between us, it may not seem like much, but its enough for me to at least give this a try. It is enough for me to know that I just cant walk away without ever knowing.

[Big Phil]

Macross
Give it the fuck up. You are sounding more stalker-esque than ever.

Ok, I know I sound over-eager, but this isn't something thats spontaneous or completely random. There is something between us, their is history between us, it may not seem like much, but its enough for me to at least give this a try. It is enough for me to know that I just cant walk away without ever knowing.

For the last week and a half you've been wasting time in this fucking thread posting about how you need to try with this girl. Here's an idea - GO FUCKING TRY and stop wasting our time.

[LadyTevar]

Macross
Give it the fuck up. You are sounding more stalker-esque than ever.

Ok, I know I sound over-eager, but this isn't something thats spontaneous or completely random. There is something between us, their is history between us, it may not seem like much, but its enough for me to at least give this a try. It is enough for me to know that I just cant walk away without ever knowing.

Over-eager? This is not over-eager, this is OBSESSIVE.

History? Yeah, you work together, and you've been obsessing over her for two years.

Something between you? Just your own obsessive ideas that you think you like her, and think that after all this time you can come in and sweep her off her feet romantically.

Guess what? You're an idiot. That boat sailed long ago, and the only thing you're doing is making it worse by whining and crying about it for over two weeks.

Now, either do something, or get out of this damn thread before I lock it for excessive stupidity.

[Macross]

Well, I see you have completely and utterly failed to understand me or why this is important. I am trying to prove to myself that I have changed, I have grown past my own limitations and I am no longer automatically bound to repeat the same mistakes that I have made in the past and you call this excessive stupidity?

And when I ask for guidance, you wont even give me an inch. You call me obsessive and an idiot because everything I have learned in life, everything I have experienced tells me there is still some small hope? Walking away is the easy thing to do and there was a time I would have walked away without hesitation, but to do so again would mean that I would have learned nothing.

Go ahead and lock this thread if you must, I will not allow your own bitterness to distract me at this critical time in my life.

[Darth Wong]

"Everything I have experienced tells me there is still some small hope"? "Critical time in your life"? That's exactly why people are getting upset with you.

You make it sound as if you're in an episode of "24" and you're trying to defuse a nuclear bomb. It's not that grandiose or dramatic. You're making a gigantic issue out of nothing. Either she has a boyfriend, or she doesn't. Someone else talked to her and says she does, but your gut instinct tells you she doesn't.

Well too bad so sad, but your gut instinct ain't worth two pesos. You don't have enough experience with women to have useful gut instinct, especially when another woman has apparently talked to her and come back flatly saying that not only does she have a boyfriend, but she's moved in with the guy.

Most likely, you are wrong. Don't build this up into anything more than it is: a mistake on your part. You're tying your entire sense of self-worth into this, which is just plain ridiculous. If you must know, ask her if she has a boyfriend. She will probably say yes, at which point you must deal with it. If she says no, then ask her out. Simple as that. Every time you post, you only make it clearer and clearer that you would rather hide here than ask her that simple question.

It has been ten days since you first posted about this. You have done absolutely nothing during those ten days. Worse yet, you have managed to talk yourself into believing that if she says she does have a boyfriend, your entire world and everything you know about it will fall apart. Pull your head out of your ass.

This isn't a movie, pal. She isn't going to leap into your arms when you declare your undying love for her, and spurn her new boyfriend at the altar while stirring music comes up and the comic relief character falls into the wedding cake.

[J]

Well, I see you have completely and utterly failed to understand me or why this is important. I am trying to prove to myself that I have changed, I have grown past my own limitations and I am no longer automatically bound to repeat the same mistakes that I have made in the past and you call this excessive stupidity?

The fact that you've done NOTHING to advance or resolve the situation in ANY way during the past ten days is clear proof that you haven't changed, and haven't learned anything. You're still making excuses to justify your inactions in your own little dreamworld, you're not progressing, in fact you're regressing and at this rate you will NEVER succeed, or even have a chance of succeeding since you don't even try.

And when I ask for guidance, you wont even give me an inch. You call me obsessive and an idiot because everything I have learned in life, everything I have experienced tells me there is still some small hope? Walking away is the easy thing to do and there was a time I would have walked away without hesitation, but to do so again would mean that I would have learned nothing.

Maybe you need smaller words or something, or maybe capital letters, so here it is: ASK HER OUT RIGHT NOW OR GIVE UP FOREVER AND WALK AWAY. Is that clear to you now? That's the choice you have to make, but it seems you're happier living in imaginary dreamworld limbo.

Go ahead and lock this thread if you must, I will not allow your own bitterness to distract me at this critical time in my life.

Yes, that's right, we'll stop intruding into your fanciful daydreams when wake the hell up and face reality.

[aerius]

If a stereotypical dork like DEATH can ask out a girl and live, you have no fucking excuse. DEATH can ask out a chick and you can't, for shame. What the hell is this world coming to?

[SirNitram]

Go ahead and lock this thread if you must, I will not allow your own bitterness to distract me at this critical time in my life.

A 'Critical Time In Your Life' is when you are on a freeway with a semi about to flatten you if you don't have an adrenal boost. Or when you decide where to put your retirement savings. Or when you are faced with the horrible choice of 'Eck out an existance as a cripple or pass quietly'.

I'm having trouble picturing you as more than fucking 20. Mentally you are certainly not that old. You have the self-absorption of a teenager and the ingrained idiocy of their hubris.

This girl is gone. If she wasn't when this started, ten days of inaction destroyed it. Get the fuck up and realize that half of the seven billion + people on this earth are female.

Alternately, remain as self-centred as a gyroscope, ignore the advice of married, happy adults by screaming that they're 'bitter' and 'can't understand you'(There you go again, standard teenage rhetoric against adults), and build this up in your head, doing nothing. You will sure as fuck find no sympathy here when you come sadly, hat in hand. Because we tried. We were patient. And you were a hubristic little shit about it.

[Darth Wong]

I think I figured out what he's doing. He's talking not to communicate with us, but to reassure himself.

[SirNitram]

I think I figured out what he's doing. He's talking not to communicate with us, but to reassure himself.

In and of itself, that's not too bad. I had to do similar to approach Tev. That being said, I didn't flat out ignore the happily married couples who spoke to me about it. I didn't reject all other points of view.

What he wants is an echo chamber. He should go on Right Wing Talk Radio.