Freedon Nadd and Force Storms

[Publius]

Many of those billions of planets were not even known in Nadd's time. Also, it must be noted that Palpatine gained power over those worlds with the aid of a massive military and war machine, something Nadd could not have possessed. Frankly, I feel that it might indeed be an imbalanced comparison, as the circumstances of the glaxy during Nadd's and Palpatine's lifetimes were greatly dissimilar.

Only a few thousand years separate Freedon Nadd from Palpatine of Naboo. The Republic, on the other hand, is in excess of twenty five thousand years old. It strains credulity that a significant fraction of the Republic's inhabited worlds would be discovered and then settled in the last fifth of its existence, when faster-than-light travel predates the Republic itself.

Even if one assumes in defiance of reason that the Republic of Palpatine's day was exponentially larger than the Republic of Nadd's, it does not change the relative scales between Palpatine and Nadd. Nadd was a player on the planetary scale; Palpatine was a player on the galactic scale. Palpatine's power relative to the galaxy of his time was exponentially greater than Nadd's relative to the galaxy of his time. As Mr Wong has had occasion to point out, a comparison between a pygmy and a giant is only unfair if they are being judged by different standards. When judged by the same standards, Nadd and Palpatine make an imbalanced equation for the same reason it imbalanced to compare a gnat to a blue whale. It is not the whale's fault the gnat is insignificant.

True, though it is hard to imagine that he would know nothing of it, especially when his own sarcophagus contained hidden scrolls with Korriban's location.

If this author has a map of Rome on his wall, does that prove he has been there? If he knows of aikidō, does that make him a master of it?

I concede that Palpatine knew some powers exclusively, but that is not to say that Nadd did not have exclusive knowledge. Many powers that could have been known by Nadd could easily have been lost and unknown to Palpatine, especially given the destruction of Holocrons, and repositories of knowledge such as the Trayus Academy, Krayiss II's library, and Ossus , sites that existed in Nadd's time yet Palpatine never had access to.

While this statement may be true, it remains baseless supposition. The facts of the matter are that Freedon Nadd "has knowledge of" the disciplines described in the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook, and certain unknown others found in "ancient Holocrons and tomes" (which remain undefined, and are therefore worthless in concrete terms); in contrast, Palpatine "has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure." On the basis of these two statements, the probability is that if Nadd knew of a discipline, Palpatine has probably mastered it ("nearly all the known powers"). If Nadd did not know if it, Palpatine has probably mastered it ("previously unknown powers"). If Nadd never imagined it, Palpatine may well have invented it ("and devises new ones at his pleasure").

The evidence does not support the suggestion that Freedon Nadd had access to greater stores of knowledge than Palpatine. Freedon Nadd never even achieved the rank of Jedi Knight; the Dark Empire Sourcebook calls Palpatine a Jedi Master. The distinction is not insignificant: Revenge of the Sith reveals that a Jedi's access to Holocrons was restricted by rank (hence Anakin Skywalker's outrage that he was denied the rank of Jedi Master -- without it, he could not access the Temple's most valuable Holocrons to search for a way to save Lady Amidala's life). Nadd trained for some unspecified time under the reigning Jen'ari, Naga Sadow, but did not finish his training, and scavenged Sithian artifacts from various ruins; his training was restricted to incomplete terms under the Jedi and Imperial Sith, with whatever trinkets he could find along the way.

Palpatine, in contrast, had access to the Sith Archives (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul); his lair in the Chancellor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center had "archives, Sith Holocrons, and other artifacts," an "environmentally controlled display case for Sith Scrolls," and a "massive Sith Holocron uncovered on Korriban" (Complete Locations). The Imperial Citadel on Byss was equipped with "a full library of Dark Side texts for the master's personal study" (Dark Empire Sourcebook), and he was said to have spent "decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines" (id.). He gained access to all of the Temple's holocrons, including the "restricted holocrons" with "the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force" (Revenge of the Sith), which even included "the only known [to the Jedi] Sith Holocrons, whose very existence is revealed only to a handful of Jedi at the highest levels" (Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary), and he went on to seize Bodo Baas's holocron from Master Jedi Ashka Boda (Dark Empire). Palpatine "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia," so that he "had long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath or the Heresiarchs" (Dark Empire Sourcebook), and is known to have "studied [the Sorcerers of Tund] prior to their destruction" (The New Essential Guide to Characters). He recruited those who "had already mastered the unique sorceries of their own species" as his dark side adepts "as much to study their knowledge as to train them in his" (Dark Empire Sourcebook).

The evidence is quite clear. Palpatine's study of the Force is the most in-depth and wide-ranging ever seen in the whole of the canon, literally embracing millions of worlds and cultural traditions well outside the range of the Jedi and the Sith (both the Ordinal Sith and the Imperial Sith). No other character is known to have spent such effort and such time to the collection and integration of such a vast store of knowledge -- what's more, Palpatine is known to have been active in his studies, integrating and refining the wildly varying cultures into his "Science of Darkness," documenting much in his Dark Side Compendium (in fact, it is known that Palpatine's writings were sufficiently thorough that reading one of his books could give one a working knowledge of alchemy andits application to biological engineering).

Freedon Nadd was never a part of the Sith Empire, only the Dark Lord in between it and the Sith Brotherhood founded by his student Exar Kun. Excepting constructs such as the Death Stars, World Devastators, and the Galaxy Gun, I do concede that Palpatine had less of a reliance on tools to accomplish what he could not than his ancient predecessors.

Freedon Nadd trained under Naga Sadow, the last Jen'ari of the Imperial line. His body was laid to rest in an Imperial-style sarcophagus, and his descendants and cultists used Imperial artifacts (such as the Sith swords and the translating talisman). His ghost lured Exar Kun to Korriban for the sake of manipulating him to the dark side, and then led him to Yavin IV where he took possession of an Imperial magic gauntlet. The fact that he was not part of the Sith Empire does not mean he did not use their magics and display many of their distinctive characteristics.

I agree with what you say about Palpatine's extraordinary powers, but not your dismissal of those of Freedon Nadd. Nadd, however, has never been featured as anything other than a spirit, and then only in two comic series. While Palpatine almost certainly was greater than Nadd, readers have the benefit of having far more available information on him than we do on Freedon Nadd.

On the basis of what has been seen and written, Palpatine is exponentially more powerful than Nadd, both secularly and metaphysically. Compared to Palpatine, Nadd is a weakling. Saying that additional material that does not exist might change the state of the facts in evidence is not unlike saying, "I maintain that it could have been otherwise if conditions were different."

So both Nadd and Palpatine have at least this in common, being able to access hyperspace as spirits. Not to stray from topic, but didn't "The Emperors Pawns" article also describe a visit to Korriban by Palpatine in which he was attacked and injured by Sith spirits on the tombworld? I admittedly do not have a copy immediately available for reference.

Yes; Palpatine was assaulted by the ghosts of several Dark Lords on Korriban. The fact that he is the single most powerful dark side magus ever documented does not mean he is invulnerable. If a squadron of heavy cruisers sinks a battleship, does that prove that each individual cruiser is the better of the battleship?

Just as Byss was a nexus for the Dark Side of the Force? As was Emperor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center on Coruscant? And while never explicitly stated so in any canonical source to my knowledge, wasn't the Eclipse also similar in design and function? You do include it as such in The Test of Wills, but if Eclipse was designed as a Dark Side focal point, then wouldn't Palpatine's Force Storms be as 'suspect' as you seem to indicate Nadd's healing of Kun on Korriban was?

Yes, Byss was a dark side nexus, engineered by Palpatine himself; it was flooded with the dark side precisely because Palpatine was actively feeding off the life force of its nineteen billions. This was not the natural accumulation of negative psychic energy, but rather a condition he had deliberately created. Even if one does discredit Palpatine's feats there for the same reason, it leaves his most destructive feat -- the disintegration of warships -- to a time when he was not on the planet, as well as his feat of transmigrating across the galaxy to reincarnate in a body light years away from his place of death.

Contrariwise, if one permits all suspect feats, Palpatine continues to enjoy a tremendous advantage over Nadd in terms of demonstrated powers. Whether one does or does not consider such things, the result does not change.

Please do not confuse this author's fan fiction with canonical fact. The architecture of the Eclipse has never been described as having metaphysical properties like those of the Jedi Temple; this author wrote that as a deliberate means of reducing Palpatine's power level from the high gigaton range seen in the canon.

Sadow?

You are correct; the statement should have read "Nadd" vice "Sadow."

That assumes that one's knowledge of Howitzers and Deringers is equal. While I can see your point in this, we have vastly more information and displays of power by Palpatine than we do of Freedon Nadd.

If one sees a Deringer fire, and one sees a Howitzer fire, one has grounds to compare them. Freedon Nadd's most destructive act was to collapse masonry; Palpatine of Naboo's was to completely disintegrate a heavily-armored warship massing several million tons. There is ample basis to compare them; that the comparison is an unflattering one is irrelevant.

[Darth Massacrus]

Only a few thousand years separate Freedon Nadd from Palpatine of Naboo. The Republic, on the other hand, is in excess of twenty five thousand years old. It strains credulity that a significant fraction of the Republic's inhabited worlds would be discovered and then settled in the last fifth of its existence, when faster-than-light travel predates the Republic itself.

Even if one assumes in defiance of reason that the Republic of Palpatine's day was exponentially larger than the Republic of Nadd's, it does not change the relative scales between Palpatine and Nadd. Nadd was a player on the planetary scale; Palpatine was a player on the galactic scale. Palpatine's power relative to the galaxy of his time was exponentially greater than Nadd's relative to the galaxy of his time. As Mr Wong has had occasion to point out, a comparison between a pygmy and a giant is only unfair if they are being judged by different standards. When judged by the same standards, Nadd and Palpatine make an imbalanced equation for the same reason it imbalanced to compare a gnat to a blue whale. It is not the whale's fault the gnat is insignificant.

I can assure you that large portions of the galaxy known in Palpatine's time were not known in Nadd's time. Take, for example, the part of the Galaxy beyond The Slice, which in Nadd's time comprised much of the Republic. Most of the area beyond The Slice remained unexplored an uncolonized until 3000 BBY, when The Hydian Way was discovered. The New Essential Chronology is quite clear about this.

If this author has a map of Rome on his wall, does that prove he has been there? If he knows of aikidō, does that make him a master of it?

While this statement may be true, it remains baseless supposition. The facts of the matter are that Freedon Nadd "has knowledge of" the disciplines described in the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook, and certain unknown others found in "ancient Holocrons and tomes" (which remain undefined, and are therefore worthless in concrete terms); in contrast, Palpatine "has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure." On the basis of these two statements, the probability is that if Nadd knew of a discipline, Palpatine has probably mastered it ("nearly all the known powers"). If Nadd did not know if it, Palpatine has probably mastered it ("previously unknown powers"). If Nadd never imagined it, Palpatine may well have invented it ("and devises new ones at his pleasure").

You have convinced me, Publius. This point is conceded.

The evidence does not support the suggestion that Freedon Nadd had access to greater stores of knowledge than Palpatine. Freedon Nadd never even achieved the rank of Jedi Knight; the Dark Empire Sourcebook calls Palpatine a Jedi Master. The distinction is not insignificant: Revenge of the Sith reveals that a Jedi's access to Holocrons was restricted by rank (hence Anakin Skywalker's outrage that he was denied the rank of Jedi Master -- without it, he could not access the Temple's most valuable Holocrons to search for a way to save Lady Amidala's life). Nadd trained for some unspecified time under the reigning Jen'ari, Naga Sadow, but did not finish his training, and scavenged Sithian artifacts from various ruins; his training was restricted to incomplete terms under the Jedi and Imperial Sith, with whatever trinkets he could find along the way.

The fact that Holocron access was restricted in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant does not mean that Holocron access was restricted on Ossus 4400 years prior to this time. In addition, "Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties" reveals that Nadd had ownership of a Sith Holocron (the first ever) dating back to the time of the Rakata, and that had been in Sith possession for 23000 years prior to his acquiring it. Furthermore, the most recent material (and, due to the Lucas canon policy of newer material taking precence over older material), reveals that Nadd did indeed complete his apprenticeship under Sadow. As Darth Bane: Rule of Two writes: "Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the Dark Side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow" and "as his apprentice, Nadd had absorbed ALL (emphasis mine) his knowledge and teachings". It is then further stated, in reference to Nadd's Sith Holocron, that this knowledge was transferred to it. Darth Bane's Order recovered this very Holocron millennia later from Nadd's tomb, making it extremely likel that some of Palpatine's knowledge came directly from this source.

On a side note, the Dark Empire Sourcebook, while naming Palpatine as a Jedi Master, mentions nothing of him being a Sith of any sort, even though he most certainly was. While Nadd never went beyond Jedi Knight as a Jedi, as a Sith he became the Dark Lord, the same rank and title held by Palpatine, who most assuredly cannot be called a Jedi of any sort, despite being as powerful as any Jedi.

Palpatine, in contrast, had access to the Sith Archives (Episode I Journal: Darth Maul); his lair in the Chancellor Palpatine Surgical Reconstruction Center had "archives, Sith Holocrons, and other artifacts," an "environmentally controlled display case for Sith Scrolls," and a "massive Sith Holocron uncovered on Korriban" (Complete Locations). The Imperial Citadel on Byss was equipped with "a full library of Dark Side texts for the master's personal study" (Dark Empire Sourcebook), and he was said to have spent "decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines" (id.). He gained access to all of the Temple's holocrons, including the "restricted holocrons" with "the deepest secrets of the greatest Masters of the Force" (Revenge of the Sith), which even included "the only known [to the Jedi] Sith Holocrons, whose very existence is revealed only to a handful of Jedi at the highest levels" (Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary), and he went on to seize Bodo Baas's holocron from Master Jedi Ashka Boda (Dark Empire). Palpatine "gathered the greatest works of knowledge from over a million worlds" and "studied the Force in all its guises throughout the galaxy, whether it was the shamanism of the Jarvashqiine or the tales of the Tyia," so that he "had long ago gone beyond any knowledge to be found in the recovered teachings of the Krath or the Heresiarchs" (Dark Empire Sourcebook), and is known to have "studied [the Sorcerers of Tund] prior to their destruction" (The New Essential Guide to Characters). He recruited those who "had already mastered the unique sorceries of their own species" as his dark side adepts "as much to study their knowledge as to train them in his" (Dark Empire Sourcebook).

Aside from the fact that the Jarvashquiine and Heresiarchs and whatever knowledge of them Palpatine gained has never been specified or even referenced in any source other than Dark Empire Sourcebook; and the fact that the Krath knowledge came from Freedon Nadd himself (he gave Satal and Aleema Keto, the Krath founders, knowledge on Onderon), I concede this point.

The evidence is quite clear. Palpatine's study of the Force is the most in-depth and wide-ranging ever seen in the whole of the canon, literally embracing millions of worlds and cultural traditions well outside the range of the Jedi and the Sith (both the Ordinal Sith and the Imperial Sith). No other character is known to have spent such effort and such time to the collection and integration of such a vast store of knowledge -- what's more, Palpatine is known to have been active in his studies, integrating and refining the wildly varying cultures into his "Science of Darkness," documenting much in his Dark Side Compendium (in fact, it is known that Palpatine's writings were sufficiently thorough that reading one of his books could give one a working knowledge of alchemy andits application to biological engineering).

I do not dispute any of this, Publius, and actually agree that Palpatine was the most powerful and knowledgeable force user in the whole of canon. I thought I had already conceded that much.

Freedon Nadd trained under Naga Sadow, the last Jen'ari of the Imperial line. His body was laid to rest in an Imperial-style sarcophagus, and his descendants and cultists used Imperial artifacts (such as the Sith swords and the translating talisman). His ghost lured Exar Kun to Korriban for the sake of manipulating him to the dark side, and then led him to Yavin IV where he took possession of an Imperial magic gauntlet. The fact that he was not part of the Sith Empire does not mean he did not use their magics and display many of their distinctive characteristics.

With regards to this, a comparison of sorts can be made between Nadd and Luke Skywalker. Just as the Jedi Order was nearly extinct in Skywalker's time, the Sith traditions were almost extinct in Nadd's time. Both Skywalker and Nadd learned from the last surviving leaders of thier respective religions (Skywalker from Yoda, Nadd from Naga Sadow). And both were instrumental in reviving their respective ideologies (Skywalker rebuilds the Jedi, Nadd instigated a resurrection of the Sith). You are absolutely correct when you state that Nadd used the magics of the Sith Empire, yet was not a member of said Empire.

On the basis of what has been seen and written, Palpatine is exponentially more powerful than Nadd, both secularly and metaphysically. Compared to Palpatine, Nadd is a weakling. Saying that additional material that does not exist might change the state of the facts in evidence is not unlike saying, "I maintain that it could have been otherwise if conditions were different."

While Palpatine is more powerful than Nadd, it is misleading to comsider Nadd as a weakling in any sense.

Yes; Palpatine was assaulted by the ghosts of several Dark Lords on Korriban. The fact that he is the single most powerful dark side magus ever documented does not mean he is invulnerable. If a squadron of heavy cruisers sinks a battleship, does that prove that each individual cruiser is the better of the battleship?

That is a valid argument. Point conceded.

Yes, Byss was a dark side nexus, engineered by Palpatine himself; it was flooded with the dark side precisely because Palpatine was actively feeding off the life force of its nineteen billions. This was not the natural accumulation of negative psychic energy, but rather a condition he had deliberately created. Even if one does discredit Palpatine's feats there for the same reason, it leaves his most destructive feat -- the disintegration of warships -- to a time when he was not on the planet, as well as his feat of transmigrating across the galaxy to reincarnate in a body light years away from his place of death.

Point conceded.

Contrariwise, if one permits all suspect feats, Palpatine continues to enjoy a tremendous advantage over Nadd in terms of demonstrated powers. Whether one does or does not consider such things, the result does not change.

Point conceded.

Please do not confuse this author's fan fiction with canonical fact. The architecture of the Eclipse has never been described as having metaphysical properties like those of the Jedi Temple; this author wrote that as a deliberate means of reducing Palpatine's power level from the high gigaton range seen in the canon.

I apologize for any error, then. I admit that you know more about Palpatine (and the events of Dark Empire in particular) than I do, so I assumed (something I ordinarily do not do) that this particular fact had a canonical basis. I do feel compelled, however, to mention my admiration of Test of Wills, though. It's an outstanding rendition of Dark Empire.

You are correct; the statement should have read "Nadd" vice "Sadow."

Well, nobody's perfect.

If one sees a Deringer fire, and one sees a Howitzer fire, one has grounds to compare them. Freedon Nadd's most destructive act was to collapse masonry; Palpatine of Naboo's was to completely disintegrate a heavily-armored warship massing several million tons. There is ample basis to compare them; that the comparison is an unflattering one is irrelevant.

I guess comparing Nadd to Palpatine is like comparing gold to platinum, then.

[Darth Massacrus]

accidental double post, please ignore.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I can assure you that large portions of the galaxy known in Palpatine's time were not known in Nadd's time. Take, for example, the part of the Galaxy beyond The Slice, which in Nadd's time comprised much of the Republic. Most of the area beyond The Slice remained unexplored an uncolonized until 3000 BBY, when The Hydian Way was discovered. The New Essential Chronology is quite clear about this.

It strains credulity and credibility. There is no way that most of the galaxy remained unexplored as PRE-FTL, RELATIVISTIC colonization extended as far as Mandalore (Outer Rim) and even Csilla (in the Unknown Regions). FTL travel predates the Republic and regional states existed in the eve of Unification which mandate same-year transgalactic travel at the most BEFORE modern hyperdrive is invented. That after political unification in the Core and even more efficient and superior hyperdrive was available that it took 20,000 years to even develop and discover - a laughable claim - a fraction of the galaxy, and somehow it took another 5,000 to finish the job even though they had same-day hyperdrive travel as shown with the Daragons is absurd. I already discussed this subject in depth lower on the page. The NEC is ignorant of basic economics and anthropology; we know their model for expansion and development defies all scientific knowledge and historical precedent. They are ignorant of galactic morphology. Needless to say, it would not take thousands of years to figure out how to go from Core to Rim. Regardless of the EU's fictions, the galaxy - and space in general - is almost entirely empty. The expansion, exploration, colonization, and development phase would be a dramatic exponential process until the civilization reaches a state of maximal equilibrium which it will remain in for the indefinite future. Off the top of my head I think a thousand years or two around the founding of the Republic is an upper limit for realistic duration of this phase of expansion and unification. After that the galaxy should be more or less fully explored and statically developed. Please search the previous thread and Dr. Saxton's pages on The Galaxy (found as an appendix to the Astrophysical Concerns) on theforce (dot) net (slash) swtc.