Most fair afterlife?

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2008-04-10 10:57am

Well, people has said that one reason the abrahimc religion can dominate most of the world is how easy it is to get a nice afterlife as compared to other pagan religion.

But then again, people have pointed out how unfair their afterlife concept was, requrining one to be devoted a god as compared to a person being good.

So in your opinon, which afterlife is the most fair one? You don't have to believe in them of course.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2008-04-10 11:38am

If I don't have to believe in them, any random story someone's imagined is equally valid.

That being my lazy-ass assumption, I'd say the afterlife from the Robin Williams movie What Dreams May Come. I like the fact that the essentially good people become gods of their own little worlds, while the evil or disturbed people languish in the horror of their own minds.

Invictus ChiKen · Post by **Invictus ChiKen** » 2008-04-10 11:57am

Well some schools of Islam hold that everyone without exception will be brought out of hell... and the last person out gets a mini-kingdom 10x the size of the Earth as it is now.

So I vote for them.

cosmicalstorm · Post by **cosmicalstorm** » 2008-04-10 12:06pm

I like the A.C Clarke version where the people of the future utopia uses micro wormholes (or something like that) to bring back people to life again. Im not sure if they did it to everyone though. Maybe I should start up some kind of savingsaccount that will pay out to my grandgrandgrandchildren and give them a reason to be fond of me

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2008-04-10 01:17pm

I like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation. Good or bad, you get another shot and a chance to do better than the previous lifetime. Succeed at transcending the dichotomy of good and evil and you escape the wheel of life to attain Nirvana. Gives you a goal to work toward.

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2008-04-10 01:34pm

Patrick Degan wrote:I like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation. Good or bad, you get another shot and a chance to do better than the previous lifetime. Succeed at transcending the dichotomy of good and evil and you escape the wheel of life to attain Nirvana. Gives you a goal to work toward.

To quote The bucket list:

"What does a slug have to do? Make a perfectly straight line of slime?"

Kanastrous · Post by **Kanastrous** » 2008-04-10 03:48pm

I'm partial to the general outlines of the Buddhist model, too.

bilateralrope · Post by **bilateralrope** » 2008-04-10 03:50pm

Shogoki wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:I like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation. Good or bad, you get another shot and a chance to do better than the previous lifetime. Succeed at transcending the dichotomy of good and evil and you escape the wheel of life to attain Nirvana. Gives you a goal to work toward.
To quote The bucket list:

"What does a slug have to do? Make a perfectly straight line of slime?"

I think slugs would be one of those reincarnations which are really hard, if not impossible, to fuck up. So you will be moving up a level after this time-out.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-04-10 05:59pm

The Buddhist scheme is stupid. I can already have oblivion without working for it (because Nirvana is a desirable outcome, I guess?). If I have to die, the only "afterlife" I'd want is to be resurrected in a future utopia ala the Clarke reference above. I sure as shit don't want to come back as someone/something dumber than I am now.

"Better than Hell" != "Good"

Kanastrous · Post by **Kanastrous** » 2008-04-10 06:35pm

You could always hope to come back as someone so dumb they're not bothered by how dumb they are...

darthbob88 · Post by **darthbob88** » 2008-04-10 06:51pm

Kanastrous wrote:You could always hope to come back as someone so dumb they're not bothered by how dumb they are...

So that's where all the Bush supporters come from!

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-04-10 07:05pm

I wonder whether the official D&D mythologies count. Those are more likely to be fair and structured then some actual religions.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2008-04-10 10:51pm

Shogoki wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:I like the Buddhist idea of reincarnation. Good or bad, you get another shot and a chance to do better than the previous lifetime. Succeed at transcending the dichotomy of good and evil and you escape the wheel of life to attain Nirvana. Gives you a goal to work toward.
To quote The bucket list:

"What does a slug have to do? Make a perfectly straight line of slime?"

Eat lettuce, avoid slug pellets and salt, and be the best damn slug you can.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2008-04-11 01:59am

The Egyptian scale idea sounds good to me...

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-04-11 03:11am

Zixinus wrote:I wonder whether the official D&D mythologies count. Those are more likely to be fair and structured then some actual religions.

The problem here is that a person's moral alignment is real thing, not an abstraction. Good and evil, law and chaos are real, (meta)physical forces in the D&D multiverse. Punishing (or rewarding) people according to their inborn natures hardly seems fair. You have whole races skewed toward particular alignments. And while you may encounter Lawful Good goblins they're fuck rare. Judging goblins by the same standards as humans or archons is a cosmic injustice.

Zixinus · Post by **Zixinus** » 2008-04-11 03:41am

The problem here is that a person's moral alignment is real thing, not an abstraction. Good and evil, law and chaos are real, (meta)physical forces in the D&D multiverse. Punishing (or rewarding) people according to their inborn natures hardly seems fair. You have whole races skewed toward particular alignments. And while you may encounter Lawful Good goblins they're fuck rare. Judging goblins by the same standards as humans or archons is a cosmic injustice.

And if you remove that? The moral alignment thing?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2008-04-11 03:52am

Zixinus wrote:And if you remove that? The moral alignment thing?

You can't, really. They're more or less inextricably linked. I suppose if you were to still recognize the alignments without them being an integral part of the people judged it would be more fair, but it wouldn't be ideal. Going back to the goblin example, can they really be blamed for the way they are? They're tribes of ignorant barbarians. Of course they're going to behave in an amoral manner.

Still, it does judge actions rather than intent, which puts it above the Abrahamic mythos. But again, that's damning with faint praise.

Zablorg · Post by **Zablorg** » 2008-04-11 06:42am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:The Egyptian scale idea sounds good to me...

Yeah, this was my favourite. No-where does it say you have to believe in the religion (although that was probably because it was the default assumption that everyone did). You just had to be a good guy to bask in the golden plains.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2008-04-11 08:59am

Zablorg wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:The Egyptian scale idea sounds good to me...
Yeah, this was my favourite. No-where does it say you have to believe in the religion (although that was probably because it was the default assumption that everyone did). You just had to be a good guy to bask in the golden plains.

How many religions actually do require that you do believe in the religion to get the "good ending", anyway? Apart from the Abrahamic ones, anyway. I can't think of any, but then again, I might just be being dense.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2008-04-11 06:43pm

Darth Raptor wrote:The Buddhist scheme is stupid. I can already have oblivion without working for it (because Nirvana is a desirable outcome, I guess?). If I have to die, the only "afterlife" I'd want is to be resurrected in a future utopia ala the Clarke reference above. I sure as shit don't want to come back as someone/something dumber than I am now.

"Better than Hell" != "Good"

On the other hand, you can reincarnate as something awesome. Like a tiger. Or a king. Or a god. According to Buddhist mantra, all of these things are transient pleasures, but whatever; I can't think of many religions where you can become a godling just by being a thoughtful, well-balanced person.

CaptHawkeye · Post by **CaptHawkeye** » 2008-04-11 08:36pm

Lagmonster wrote:If I don't have to believe in them, any random story someone's imagined is equally valid.

That being my lazy-ass assumption, I'd say the afterlife from the Robin Williams movie What Dreams May Come. I like the fact that the essentially good people become gods of their own little worlds, while the evil or disturbed people languish in the horror of their own minds.

Yeah, i'm actually going to throw in with that one too. It's total fantasy and VERY optimistic, but what can we say? Being a god of your own universe is a great reward. Compounded by the bonus of allowing people you knew to be there with you.

So it's not some dream fantasy of only you and the illusion of other people.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2008-04-12 01:41pm

Darth Raptor wrote:The problem here is that a person's moral alignment is real thing, not an abstraction. Good and evil, law and chaos are real, (meta)physical forces in the D&D multiverse. Punishing (or rewarding) people according to their inborn natures hardly seems fair. You have whole races skewed toward particular alignments. And while you may encounter Lawful Good goblins they're fuck rare. Judging goblins by the same standards as humans or archons is a cosmic injustice.

Isn't getting sent to "Hell" in D&D not really a punishment, but more of joining up with people who share your beliefs and plotting to kick the crap out of everyone else?

ray245 · Post by **ray245** » 2008-04-12 02:13pm

CaptHawkeye wrote:
Lagmonster wrote:If I don't have to believe in them, any random story someone's imagined is equally valid.

That being my lazy-ass assumption, I'd say the afterlife from the Robin Williams movie What Dreams May Come. I like the fact that the essentially good people become gods of their own little worlds, while the evil or disturbed people languish in the horror of their own minds.
Yeah, i'm actually going to throw in with that one too. It's total fantasy and VERY optimistic, but what can we say? Being a god of your own universe is a great reward. Compounded by the bonus of allowing people you knew to be there with you. So it's not some dream fantasy of only you and the illusion of other people.

Although I think a afterlife that you would enjoy is being in control of how your own afterlife will be.

We can shape it to our liking. If you don't want a afterlife or reject the possibility of there is afterlife, then you simply get what you wanted in a sense.

If you believe in afterlife, then the afterlife will be created by you in a sense.

If you believe in reincarnation, then your soul will simply be incarnated. If you believe in heaven or hell in chrisitanity terms, then you will be creating your own path towards either of them.

Although I doubt that is a fair one.

Ritterin Sophia · Post by **Ritterin Sophia** » 2008-04-13 06:20am

Yogi wrote:
Darth Raptor wrote:The problem here is that a person's moral alignment is real thing, not an abstraction. Good and evil, law and chaos are real, (meta)physical forces in the D&D multiverse. Punishing (or rewarding) people according to their inborn natures hardly seems fair. You have whole races skewed toward particular alignments. And while you may encounter Lawful Good goblins they're fuck rare. Judging goblins by the same standards as humans or archons is a cosmic injustice.
Isn't getting sent to "Hell" in D&D not really a punishment, but more of joining up with people who share your beliefs and plotting to kick the crap out of everyone else?

No. Souls are a commodity and currency in the lower planes. They can be used as spell components or to replace the energy/xp expended in making magic items. They can also apparently turn into some kind of larval form, to be used as spell components and possibly part of the process from which fiends spontaneously pop into existence.

Imperial Overlord · Post by **Imperial Overlord** » 2008-04-13 07:38pm

General Schatten wrote:
No. Souls are a commodity and currency in the lower planes. They can be used as spell components or to replace the energy/xp expended in making magic items. They can also apparently turn into some kind of larval form, to be used as spell components and possibly part of the process from which fiends spontaneously pop into existence.

A few souls are promoted to the lowest ranks of fiends. Or they could get eaten. Most likely they'll endure millenia of torment before promotion or destruction. Torturing souls releases energy which fiends then feed on, which is one of the reasons that torture is an art form down there. It sucks to be the basis of the ecology of the realms of evil.

A few really powerful or really skilled bargainers can get a leg up on this process, so being extremely cunning, powerful, and vile can result in less or even no torment. Not at all fair, but that's the Lower Planes for you.