F-22s have structural defects + FCS cutbacks

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F-22s have structural defects + FCS cutbacks

Post by Sidewinder »

The Seattle Times wrote:Friday, April 11, 2008 - Page updated at 12:26 PM

Boeing sues Alcoa over parts for F-22 Raptor fighters
By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter

Some of the U.S. Air Force's new F-22 Raptor fighter jets are flying with a manufacturing defect in crucial titanium supports in a section built by Boeing.

The Air Force agreed to allow the defect to stay because of the cost and delay to fix it. But the jets will require more frequent inspections because of the potential for a catastrophic failure in flight.

Details of the problem emerged late last month when Boeing sued Alcoa, the Pittsburgh, Penn.-based subcontractor that forged the titanium parts. The suit seeks more than $12 million for extra costs incurred because of the alleged shoddy manufacturing.

Boeing said the jets are safe for military operations as long as the potentially defective parts are inspected regularly.

"The Air Force has determined there is not a safety-of-flight issue here and they have not grounded the aircraft," said Boeing F-22 spokesman Doug Cantwell. "There will be more frequent inspections, making sure no cause for concern does develop. Boeing employees will keep an eye on them."

Lockheed Martin is the prime contractor on the F-22, which will replace the Air Force's aging Boeing-built F-15s and other aircraft. As a subcontractor, Boeing builds the Raptor wings and aft fuselage in Seattle.

From 2000 through 2005, Alcoa supplied Boeing with the forged titanium parts that provide structural support in a section of the aft fuselage that "connects the wings to the fuselage of the aircraft," the filing states. This section's "failure could result in the loss of the aircraft."

Each aircraft has five forged titanium supports per wing; four on each side could be affected.

During manufacturing, these eight supports must be heat-treated in a furnace under precise conditions to strengthen the metal's microstructure.

Boeing's complaint, filed in U.S. District Court in Seattle, alleges Alcoa "failed to follow required procedures" and failed to add a crucial extra 20 minutes in the furnace that was needed for proper forging.

After that was discovered in fall 2005, Boeing's testing established that the imperfect forging procedure "increases the rate of crack growth and reduces the damage tolerance life" of the parts — defined as "the length of time for a crack to propagate undetected from a manufacturing defect to cause the catastrophic failure of the aircraft."

In April 2005, Alcoa was replaced as supplier of the forgings "because of cost issues" unrelated to the defect, Boeing's Cantwell said.

By then, Alcoa had delivered 695 of the forged titanium supports, of which 384 were installed on 48 jets, 88 were installed on 11 partially assembled aircraft and 179 were at a stage where they could still be inspected and tested.

To date, a total of 459 of the forgings have been inspected and 71 have proved defective. Inspections will continue into next year.

Boeing and Alcoa attempted to develop a "reheat" procedure to fix the defective parts, but this caused metal distortion and "proved economically infeasible," the filing states.

The inspections and extra engineering required to develop the reheat procedure cost Boeing at least $5.3 million.

In addition, the Air Force withheld $27 million in payments until it reached a settlement with Boeing last June. The settlement requires Boeing to perform $6.4 million worth of extra work at no cost.

Boeing wants Alcoa to reimburse all the extra costs plus legal fees.

Alcoa spokesman Kevin Lowery downplayed the issue as a "commercial dispute" and said, "We weren't able to come to some kind of agreement. Now we're going to move the commercial dispute into another venue."

Lowery conceded "there is a defect there" but declined to discuss who was at fault.

Lockheed Martin spokesman Rob Fuller declined to comment.

In the end, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and the Air Force chose to live with the defective Alcoa forgings in the first batch of 101 aircraft, because they "may only be removed at substantial cost and disruption to aircraft-production operations," Boeing's filing said.

Boeing's filing describes the continued use of the defective forgings as "commercially reasonable."

"Discontinuing use of the Alcoa ... forgings would shut down the F-22 aircraft production line for months, exposing Boeing and Lockheed Martin to damage claims from the Air Force," the filing states.

Air Force public-affairs officer Lt. Col. Jennifer Cassidy said in an e-mail, "The Air Force would never do anything that would compromise the safety of our airmen."

This year's Air Force budget estimates put a price tag of $137 million to the F-22 Raptor. Lockheed has so far delivered 110 Raptors.

Dominic Gates: 206-464-2963 or dgates@seattletimes.com

Cutbacks likely on Army work

Budget constraints are likely to force the U.S. Army to cut back on the combat capabilities of the $159.3 billion system of vehicles, drones and communications that Boeing is developing for the service, congressional auditors said Thursday.

There are "significant technical challenges" in producing software codes and communications for the Future Combat Systems (FCS) program, the Government Accountability Office said.

Army cost estimates are based on "uncertain" data, and as the program moves to full production in 2013, it will compete for funds with the Army's need to replace equipment lost or damaged in Iraq, new weapons and continued conversion of the force into brigades from divisions, GAO Director of Acquisition Management Paul Francis told a House Armed Services Committee panel.

"The Army will likely continue to reduce FCS capabilities in order to stay within available funding limits," Francis said.

The Army wants about $3.6 billion next year for the program.

Boeing and Science Applications International are the top contractors leading the development phase.

Bloomberg News

Copyright © 2008 The Seattle Times Company
First the F-15 Eagle, now the F-22 Raptor? The USAF just can't get a break, can it?

Meanwhile, the US Army finds itself having to do more with less, i.e., FCS is competing with replacements for worn-out Humvees, tanks, IFVs, etc., for funding. And they STILL haven't found a replacement for the piece of shit M16 and M4, which I know FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE jams as easily as oil slicks make people trip.
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Post by MKSheppard »

This problem with the titanium forging has been known for a while. What it means is that specific F-22A serial numbers will be carefully watched and will have their airframe life deliberately limited before they can be remanufactured.
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Re: F-22s have structural defects + FCS cutbacks

Post by Adrian Laguna »

Sidewinder wrote:And they STILL haven't found a replacement for the piece of shit M16 and M4, which I know FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE jams as easily as oil slicks make people trip.
They're not going to replace it, I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years they're still using the same gun. Sure the thing is a temperamental maintenance hog, but there's already hundreds of thousands of the things lying around, it's too much money to replace them all. They have found an alternative though, it's called the HK 416 and Delta Force is already using it.
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Post by Resinence »

The HK416 is just an upgraded m16, that is more reliable. Not really an alternative but more of a "we know the m16 sucks, heres a slightlyimproved-but-the-same"version.
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Post by TheMuffinKing »

Resinence wrote:The HK416 is just an upgraded m16, that is more reliable. Not really an alternative but more of a "we know the m16 sucks, heres a slightlyimproved-but-the-same"version.
I thought it was a radical improvement utilizing a rotating bolt instead of a gas piston system. I could be wrong, I suppose I could just research it. I will when I get back from lunch!
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Post by Resinence »

It is, I just have it out for ar15/m16's :P

You can read about it Here
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Post by [R_H] »

TheMuffinKing wrote: I thought it was a radical improvement utilizing a rotating bolt instead of a gas piston system. I could be wrong, I suppose I could just research it. I will when I get back from lunch!
The HK416 uses a gas piston instead of direct impingement, which reduces fouling. There are conversion kits to convert AR-15s from DI to Gas piston Ex.1
Ex.2
Or a piston upper from LWRC, among others.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

A rotating bolt and a gas piston aren’t mutually exclusive, they do different things. Other then a few roller delayed blowback designs from the Germans just about all assault rifles have rotating bolt to lock the breach. Can take the form of a new upper receiver for an existing M16, or you can buy it as a whole new gun, in either case you're basically taking the G36 gas piston system and dropping it into an AR-15 frame. Ironically the gas system in the G36 is partly based off the system in the AR-18 which was also designed by Eugene Stoner. Anyway, the HK416 has constantly done worse then the SCAR and XM-8 in comparative trials so odds of it ever being widely adapted are zero.

Good news of FCS, more cuts bring us ever so closer to the near inevitable day that the US Army formally scraps the whole concept of introducing a whole new war fighting system all in one go, which was always batshit insane.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

I'd actually like to see the US adapt the SCAR. Not only does it perform better than the HK416, but we could also replace the M-14 with a brand new gun and the two different sizes have something like 80% parts compatability, a logistics guys dream.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

General Schatten wrote:I'd actually like to see the US adapt the SCAR. Not only does it perform better than the HK416, but we could also replace the M-14 with a brand new gun and the two different sizes have something like 80% parts compatability, a logistics guys dream.
Ninety-percent. And SOCOM apparently loves it. Not only is it a brand new weapon with far better reliability, you can adapt it to fire anything from 5.56 over to both NATO and WARSAW 7.62 mm, and it comes with all the fun add-ons like 'nade launcher and reflex scope etc.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

General Schatten wrote:I'd actually like to see the US adapt the SCAR. Not only does it perform better than the HK416, but we could also replace the M-14 with a brand new gun and the two different sizes have something like 80% parts compatability, a logistics guys dream.
They also have the HK-417 you know, which is a 7.62x51mm version of the HK-416. Having different versions of an assault rifle for different calibers is has pretty much become standard stuff in terms of commercial developed assault rifles today.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
General Schatten wrote:I'd actually like to see the US adapt the SCAR. Not only does it perform better than the HK416, but we could also replace the M-14 with a brand new gun and the two different sizes have something like 80% parts compatability, a logistics guys dream.
They also have the HK-417 you know, which is a 7.62x51mm version of the HK-416. Having different versions of an assault rifle for different calibers is has pretty much become standard stuff in terms of commercial developed assault rifles today.
Yes, however, if we went with the FN SCAR we'd probably just go ahead and buy the new EGLM, rather than using a modified M203 we've been using for the past four decades.
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Post by Thanas »

It sure seems to be a bad month for Boeing et al. First the Dreamliner is delayed (again...and look how many Boeing fanwhores sneered when the A 380 got pushed back), then they loose the tanker contract and now this?

Sure sucks to be Boeing right now.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

(again...and look how many Boeing fanwhores sneered when the A 380 got pushed back)
Boeing has handled the delays far better than Airbus though, and never promised unequivocally there would be no further delays. Airbus did that not once, but three times. Unlike the A380 delays, I don't see a mob of angry airlines calling for Boeing's head on a platter, nor have any of them canceled or threatened to cancel their orders.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Boeing is pioneering a completely new way of building large aircraft via baking together entire composite fuselages to be able to build the 787 at all. Anyone is going to expect delays when you do something like that. The A380 was just big, with very little in the way of new technology, and most of its delays stemmed from nothing more then incompetent management which let different parts of the aircraft be designed in detail on incompatible CAD programs.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Boeing is pioneering a completely new way of building large aircraft via baking together entire composite fuselages to be able to build the 787 at all. Anyone is going to expect delays when you do something like that. The A380 was just big, with very little in the way of new technology, and most of its delays stemmed from nothing more then incompetent management which let different parts of the aircraft be designed in detail on incompatible CAD programs.
I haven't been following this, but how could the CAD programs be that incompatible? CAD/CAM software has used the IGES standard for inter-operability for years now, and even if you're using mathematically defined 3d surfaces which are based on unusual math, like bezier curves, you can usually control the maximum allowable geometric deviation in the conversion process.
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Post by Stuart »

Darth Wong wrote:I haven't been following this, but how could the CAD programs be that incompatible?
Mike, you're talking about the French and the Germans trying to work together. Remember this is the company that had two CEOs because the governments ponying up the cash couldn't agree on a proper management structure. Even better, the two CEOs were on such bad terms that they wouldn't speak to each other.

If one side was using CADCAM, the other would use monks writing on parchment with quill pens just as a matter of principle. (Slight overstatement there but not as much as one might think).
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Post by Loner »

General Schatten wrote:Yes, however, if we went with the FN SCAR we'd probably just go ahead and buy the new EGLM, rather than using a modified M203 we've been using for the past four decades.
I believe they're going to replace the M203 with the M320.
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Darth Wong wrote: I haven't been following this, but how could the CAD programs be that incompatible? CAD/CAM software has used the IGES standard for inter-operability for years now, and even if you're using mathematically defined 3d surfaces which are based on unusual math, like bezier curves, you can usually control the maximum allowable geometric deviation in the conversion process.
Apparently the issue was designing wiring using two different versions of CATIA, Basically one team designed the whole of the basic aircraft and its systems, while a second team had to design a completely custom interior for every single different customer, which of course including huge masses of custom wiring. The new version could read the old version, but not the other way around. I forgot who had the old one. But to make it worse, CATIA isn’t really meant to do wiring in the first place, and then when Airbus went to fix this computability issue they decided that the wiring designs were crappy to start with, and that it was worth doing the extra work to redesign them. This wasn’t really that much effort vs. simply recreating the existing stuff in a common program, but it ate up time ontop of the long time it took airbus to decided to actually go and do this. They had additional problems converting the CATIA data into the program that was being used to build a full 3D mockup of the plane. To round it off, the different airbus design offices have different standard languages, so you have German and French versions of each program being used, which just makes life hell for the simplest things.

Bad management before, during and after this process was a huge factor, airbus for exampled decided to switch from copper to aluminum wiring after the design process had already began, requiring that every last wire and connector be changed to be about 50% larger diameter. This in turn started requiring drilling bigger holes in pieces of the airframe to let the wires pass through, requiring that all sorts of strength and weight calculations be redone.
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