Who is the smartest Hivemind?

[Dartzap]

What about Galaxia from the later Foundation books? It was..sort of smart.

[Peptuck]

Speaking of Tyranids, why not nominate them for smartest? It's not every day a sci-fi power attacks the enemy from the Z-axis.

They're not smart, there's just a lot of them.
The limit of Tyranid intelligence is genestealers being good at breeding and retaining their intelligence, and some cunning. Attacking a galaxy from all sides is an act of numerical overwhelmage, not intellgience.

I beg to differ. Hive Fleet Leviathan used a surprising amount of stealth when it infiltrated its way into the galaxy, and on both a strategic and tactical level, the Hive Mind has shown quite a bit of intelligence. The Codex even mentions that the Hive Mind doesn't simply send swarms of warriors at an opponent, heedless of losses, but flanks, envelopes, and infiltrates its forces in brutally effective combined arms warfare.

Hell, Kraken's invasion was already being prepared a century ahead of time by genestealer broods on Gravalax, who were arranging for the Imperium and the Tau to beat each other bloody in time for Kraken to arrive. On Pererimunda, they landed an advance unit to prepare a beachhead half a year prior to their main invasion force's arrival, and that force managed to make it down with genestealer hybrids infiltrating and disabling the global auspex network. The Hive Mind is quite adept at cunning and subterfuge.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Speaking of Tyranids, why not nominate them for smartest? It's not every day a sci-fi power attacks the enemy from the Z-axis.

They're not smart, there's just a lot of them.
The limit of Tyranid intelligence is genestealers being good at breeding and retaining their intelligence, and some cunning. Attacking a galaxy from all sides is an act of numerical overwhelmage, not intellgience.

I beg to differ. Hive Fleet Leviathan used a surprising amount of stealth when it infiltrated its way into the galaxy, and on both a strategic and tactical level, the Hive Mind has shown quite a bit of intelligence. The Codex even mentions that the Hive Mind doesn't simply send swarms of warriors at an opponent, heedless of losses, but flanks, envelopes, and infiltrates its forces in brutally effective combined arms warfare.

Hell, Kraken's invasion was already being prepared a century ahead of time by genestealer broods on Gravalax, who were arranging for the Imperium and the Tau to beat each other bloody in time for Kraken to arrive. On Pererimunda, they landed an advance unit to prepare a beachhead half a year prior to their main invasion force's arrival, and that force managed to make it down with genestealer hybrids infiltrating and disabling the global auspex network. The Hive Mind is quite adept at cunning and subterfuge.

By Horus, read what I said about there being a difference between intelligence and cunning . I'm not arguing that the Tyrannid Hive mind is cunning, I'm saying that it's not that intelligent.

It operates mainly on brute biological instinct, rather like the Orks, that is, on a low level of intelligence with a high level of cunning most of it "instinctual".
A swarm of bees can envelop a wasp and shake it to death from all sides, that's the type of "intelligence" you're reffering to with

flanks, envelopes, and infiltrates

You're saying "comes at it from all sides" is a sign of high intelligence? Wolves are better at tiring a larger animal over long distances, and birds do the "infiltration" thing as well. There is a difference, of course between animals and sentient beings, but the Hive mind does not out-think humans, it overwhelms them.

I hate bringing up the Gravemind as a constant example, but compare it's dealing with a fundamentally superior foe, it thought, adapted, improved, and didn't just go "Send out initial breeders, Attack worlds, send out more breeders/infiltrators in advance, eat everything, get stomped, grow bigger warriors and come at the galaxy from all sides, eat everything".

That aside, could it be argued that the Culture Minds have the capacity for a Hive-mind? They can communicate in group-thoughts from a distance, and each one alone is absurdly intelligent, even two (Such as in "Consider, Phlebas") together such as may run an orbital would be above all but the highest examples of fleshy, biological hive-minds. (Where's Starglider when you need him )

[NecronLord]

It should be noted that there's never been any evidence suggesting that the tyranid hive mind is animalistic, and occasional (though now defunct) evidence suggesting that its sapience is sufficient to easily comprehend human desires.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It should be noted that there's never been any evidence suggesting that the tyranid hive mind is animalistic, and occasional (though now defunct) evidence suggesting that its sapience is sufficient to easily comprehend human desires.

Very well, I "conceed" that the Hive mind itself may be more intelligent than say, a Ripper or Hormogaunt, but still, it is unquestionably animalistic, driven by very basic & primitive forces & more importantly, can't over-rule them, and crucially, it doesn't show unusual intelligence. Everything it has done is mainly animalistic, or at most an understanding of human desires or a pack-like tactical ability.

I'm not saying that the Hive mind is an overgrown Queen bea, but in terms of intelligence, it is not in the same league of most other Hive-minds. (Even a Cerebrate shows more cunning, say understanding human technological development & stations, or the Protoss's social structure).
Brute force=! Intelligence.

Also, what defunct evidence? Sounds interesting

[NecronLord]

Even a Cerebrate shows more cunning, say understanding human technological development & stations, or the Protoss's social structure).

Really now? Has it occured to you that it has to have a detailed understanding of humanoid culture and procreative instincts in order to even manufacture Genestealers. Never mind that Genestealer Patriarchs ars capable of making direct choices about how to interact with human society ranging from what cover story to adopt, to what commercial investments the cult should make. They are at least as sapient and intelligent as you, probably far more so. They may not start out that way, but they are part of the hive mind, and at the very least, it can draw on their intellect.

Also, what defunct evidence? Sounds interesting

Ian Watson's Space Marine novel has the Tyranids' representatives (Zoats, a semi-independant species that have been exterminated in-universe) play for time during a reconnisance expedition aboard a Tyranid ship by claiming that the Hive Mind will integrate all human intelligence into itself, and thus kill Chaos, and that this will be a good thing.

[Molyneux]

They're not smart, there's just a lot of them.
The limit of Tyranid intelligence is genestealers being good at breeding and retaining their intelligence, and some cunning. Attacking a galaxy from all sides is an act of numerical overwhelmage, not intellgience.

I beg to differ. Hive Fleet Leviathan used a surprising amount of stealth when it infiltrated its way into the galaxy, and on both a strategic and tactical level, the Hive Mind has shown quite a bit of intelligence. The Codex even mentions that the Hive Mind doesn't simply send swarms of warriors at an opponent, heedless of losses, but flanks, envelopes, and infiltrates its forces in brutally effective combined arms warfare.

Hell, Kraken's invasion was already being prepared a century ahead of time by genestealer broods on Gravalax, who were arranging for the Imperium and the Tau to beat each other bloody in time for Kraken to arrive. On Pererimunda, they landed an advance unit to prepare a beachhead half a year prior to their main invasion force's arrival, and that force managed to make it down with genestealer hybrids infiltrating and disabling the global auspex network. The Hive Mind is quite adept at cunning and subterfuge.

By Horus, read what I said about there being a difference between intelligence and cunning . I'm not arguing that the Tyrannid Hive mind is cunning, I'm saying that it's not that intelligent.

It operates mainly on brute biological instinct, rather like the Orks, that is, on a low level of intelligence with a high level of cunning most of it "instinctual".
A swarm of bees can envelop a wasp and shake it to death from all sides, that's the type of "intelligence" you're reffering to with

flanks, envelopes, and infiltrates

You're saying "comes at it from all sides" is a sign of high intelligence? Wolves are better at tiring a larger animal over long distances, and birds do the "infiltration" thing as well. There is a difference, of course between animals and sentient beings, but the Hive mind does not out-think humans, it overwhelms them.

I hate bringing up the Gravemind as a constant example, but compare it's dealing with a fundamentally superior foe, it thought, adapted, improved, and didn't just go "Send out initial breeders, Attack worlds, send out more breeders/infiltrators in advance, eat everything, get stomped, grow bigger warriors and come at the galaxy from all sides, eat everything".

That aside, could it be argued that the Culture Minds have the capacity for a Hive-mind? They can communicate in group-thoughts from a distance, and each one alone is absurdly intelligent, even two (Such as in "Consider, Phlebas") together such as may run an orbital would be above all but the highest examples of fleshy, biological hive-minds. (Where's Starglider when you need him )

Sorry to disagree, but the paraphrase does seem to imply that the Tyranid mind uses complex strategy - which would seem to imply intelligence.

Still doesn't make it smarter than a smart human, though.

[Ford Prefect]

Really now? Has it occured to you that it has to have a detailed understanding of humanoid culture and procreative instincts in order to even manufacture Genestealers. Never mind that Genestealer Patriarchs ars capable of making direct choices about how to interact with human society ranging from what cover story to adopt, to what commercial investments the cult should make. They are at least as sapient and intelligent as you, probably far more so. They may not start out that way, but they are part of the hive mind, and at the very least, it can draw on their intellect.

That's hilarious! I have endless images of an eight or nine foot tall alien monstrosity with more blades than your average restaurant kitchen strapped to its body poring endlessly over the local equivalent of the Financial Times, before making anonymous calls to its accountant. 'Promethium!' the Broodlord hisses over the Gothic telephone 'Sell all our shares in promethium! Peak promethium is coming!'

[NecronLord]

Quite. They're big bloated things that sit there and preside. Maguses do most of that sort of thing, but the Patriarchs seem to understand it all anyway.

[petesampras]

The Zerg are fun, with Sarrah"Watch me make everyone bend over for me" Kerrigan, or The Overmind, but Kerrigan is not a relevenat example of a hive mind in my opinion, the basic Zerg are not machine wielding geniuses (Even if they can lay traps), likewise the Tyrannids.

Neither Kerrigan nor the Overmind are, even remotely, examples of a hivemind.

[R.O.A]

What about The Flood, from Halo (Namely, the Gravemind form, that was [SPOILERS] able to talk the equilevent of a Culture Mind into helping it eat the universe).

What, exactly, from Halo is the equivilant to a Culture mind?

[Crazedwraith]

What about The Flood, from Halo (Namely, the Gravemind form, that was [SPOILERS] able to talk the equilevent of a Culture Mind into helping it eat the universe).

What, exactly, from Halo is the equivilant to a Culture mind?

How are culture minds the same as 'hiveminds'? They are singular objects not collective intelligences.

[frogcurry]

What about Galaxia from the later Foundation books? It was..sort of smart.

I think the fact that you put "sort of" in front of "smart" in your own suggestion says it all really.

Some examples of Culture minds have consisted of collectives of minds, each of which are singular and separate but presumably but can form part of a greater whole ("Consider Pheblas" or "Player of Games" has this really explicitly in it, can't recall which). I don't know what the criteria for Hivemind is though so whether that counts as one or not...

That's hilarious! I have endless images of an eight or nine foot tall alien monstrosity with more blades than your average restaurant kitchen strapped to its body poring endlessly over the local equivalent of the Financial Times, before making anonymous calls to its accountant. 'Promethium!' the Broodlord hisses over the Gothic telephone 'Sell all our shares in promethium! Peak promethium is coming!'

Plus, they get swanky Genestealer limousines as a vehicle unit for transporting them around in old sourcebook, or I so seem to remember. They're like evil alien yuppies...

[Ford Prefect]

What about The Flood, from Halo (Namely, the Gravemind form, that was [SPOILERS] able to talk the equilevent of a Culture Mind into helping it eat the universe).

What, exactly, from Halo is the equivilant to a Culture mind?

He's probably referring to the couple of Forerunner AIs which were basically running the entire Flood war, though I can't remember their names. All the information terminals are depicted as being the recollections of these AIs when fighting the Flood. They were certainly greatly superior to the caretakers like Guilty Spark, but there's no evidence given to suggest that they're anywhere near the level of a Culture mind.

Plus, they get swanky Genestealer limousines as a vehicle unit for transporting them around in old sourcebook, or I so seem to remember. They're like evil alien yuppies...

They did. Man, I really should get back writing that Genestealer cult story I started once. It could have been hilarious, with claw-limbed horrors from the depths of space cruising around in a shiny limo, picking up chicks and impregnating them with the intense desire to procreate for the good of the Tyranid menace ...

[Darth Smiley]

I was thinking more the Gravemind - the mind that controls the Flood.

[white_rabbit]

It should be noted that there's never been any evidence suggesting that the tyranid hive mind is animalistic, and occasional (though now defunct) evidence suggesting that its sapience is sufficient to easily comprehend human desires.

Very well, I "conceed" that the Hive mind itself may be more intelligent than say, a Ripper or Hormogaunt, but still, it is unquestionably animalistic, driven by very basic & primitive forces & more importantly, can't over-rule them, and crucially, it doesn't show unusual intelligence. Everything it has done is mainly animalistic, or at most an understanding of human desires or a pack-like tactical ability.

I'm not saying that the Hive mind is an overgrown Queen bea, but in terms of intelligence, it is not in the same league of most other Hive-minds. (Even a Cerebrate shows more cunning, say understanding human technological development & stations, or the Protoss's social structure).
Brute force=! Intelligence.

Also, what defunct evidence? Sounds interesting

They sent a beasty to assassinate Inquisitor Kryptman, as in a lone Nid organism was stealth inserted onto the planet from orbit, and travelled cross country to specifically murder the guy leading the Inquisition and Imperial response against the Nids.

I'm beginning to question if you actually know what you are talking about, since you describe specific activities that you "allow" would indicate an intelligent Hivemind, yet seemingly ignore their presence in Tyranid strategy.

The Hive Mind attempts to assassinate enemy leaders, those interacting with it repeatedly describe things like "malevolent intelligence", hell, In the Belly of the Beast even has a Blood Claw with low level psychic abilities being taunted psychically as he gets digested in an acid trap!

It stretches credence that an entity which co-ordinates billions (at least) engages in complex and sustained infiltration and counter intelligence is a dumb, animalistic predator.

[The Grim Squeaker]

It should be noted that there's never been any evidence suggesting that the tyranid hive mind is animalistic, and occasional (though now defunct) evidence suggesting that its sapience is sufficient to easily comprehend human desires.

Very well, I "conceed" that the Hive mind itself may be more intelligent than say, a Ripper or Hormogaunt, but still, it is unquestionably animalistic, driven by very basic & primitive forces & more importantly, can't over-rule them, and crucially, it doesn't show unusual intelligence. Everything it has done is mainly animalistic, or at most an understanding of human desires or a pack-like tactical ability.

I'm not saying that the Hive mind is an overgrown Queen bea, but in terms of intelligence, it is not in the same league of most other Hive-minds. (Even a Cerebrate shows more cunning, say understanding human technological development & stations, or the Protoss's social structure).
Brute force=! Intelligence.

Also, what defunct evidence? Sounds interesting

They sent a beasty to assassinate Inquisitor Kryptman, as in a lone Nid organism was stealth inserted onto the planet from orbit, and travelled cross country to specifically murder the guy leading the Inquisition and Imperial response against the Nids.

Interesting, never heard of that. (The Nids don't interest me, so my knowledge of them is rather lacking).

I'm beginning to question if you actually know what you are talking about, since you describe specific activities that you "allow" would indicate an intelligent Hivemind, yet seemingly ignore their presence in Tyranid strategy.

I may have been unclear with .

I conceed that the Hive mind itself may be more intelligent than say, a Ripper or Hormogaunt

. I agree that it is intelligent, but it's a certain kind of very focused intelligence, instinctual and animalistic/cunning, which it displays to a high degree, but far less so when it comes to higher mental functions, that would involve say, ignoring impulses for example, or subterfuge in negotiations, not just secretive breeding and spawning. (The last example is a very bad one, especially after NL corrected me on Patriarch's, maybe higher Math is a better example, or the former example of the 3)

The Hive Mind attempts to assassinate enemy leaders, those interacting with it repeatedly describe things like "malevolent intelligence", hell, In the Belly of the Beast even has a Blood Claw with low level psychic abilities being taunted psychically as he gets digested in an acid trap!

The "Last chancers" series has a Lictor trying to assasinate a high-ranking Imperial officer (The Colonel, or Kryptmann himself, or someone else, I haven't read it in ages), and it specifically describes it as homing in on "phermenones of a leader". (I guess charismatic people really do smell better).
Is that the example you were bringing up? If so, then it just strengthens the "cunning"/instinct as opposed to higher mental reasoning/planning.

Again, I'm not arguing against the Hivemind is more intelligent than a human, in certain respects it's ncredibly intelligent, but it's a severely lacking intelligence, and it simply is not as intelligent as more focused, self aware, sentient hive-minds.

It stretches credence that an entity which co-ordinates billions (at least) engages in complex and sustained infiltration and counter intelligence is a dumb, animalistic predator

[Shroom Man 777]

DAETH, I wish your face got Hiveminded

Anyway, what evidence do you got that Halo's Gravemind is any smarter than the Tyrannid Hivemind? Aside from spouting random poetry and talking to a hot holographic chick, what did the Gravemind do that's so hot? If the Hivemind was neutered and the Tyrannid forces were minimized to the point where it would be at a disadvantage against the UNSC and Covenant forces, it could still beat them with Genestealer spies and infiltrators. Did the Gravemind ever do something as smart as that? Did the Gravemind and the Flood even have a functioning covert intelligence, tactical espionage action taskforce? I doubt it. Whereas the Tyrannids do. And the Tyrannid's infiltrators are good enough to evade the Imperium's insane defenses against aliens, mutants and heretics. That itself is quite a feat. And considering that a Machiavellian Dick Cheney Tyrannid is still subservient to the Hivemind's greater intelligence... well

Besides, does not comparing different individual intelligences utterly defeat the notion of Hiveminds?

[white_rabbit]

I may have been unclear with .

You aren't unclear, just talking bollocks.

. I agree that it is intelligent, but it's a certain kind of very focused intelligence, instinctual and animalistic/cunning, which it displays to a high degree

The Hive Mind is self aware and capable of reasoning, as it does in a William King short story, spending most of it engaged in a Sith like wheedling conversation with poor Njal the Blood Claw.

You mistake clarity of purpose for tunnel vision it would seem. Its particularly ironic, given that "instinctual and animalistic" behaviour is a hallmark of beasties when removed from the active control of the Hive Mind.

but far less so when it comes to higher mental functions, that would involve say, ignoring impulses for example,

What impulses would you judge it needs to ignore to be truly intelligent, ignoring that the Hive is itself responsible for surpressing the instinctual behavior of its component parts and forcing them to do stuff like ignore being set on fire, or freely walk into a vat of seething acid to be digested.

or subterfuge in negotiations

Why the fuck should it negotiate with anybody ?

Nid subterfuge involves dispatching deep cover infiltrators specifically designed to seek out powerful psykers and society leaders and co-opt them, then munching the entire planet.

It doesn't want, or need to be tricky in negotiations.

maybe higher Math is a better example

Higher fucking math ? What opportunity do you think the Hive Mind has to demonstrate its capability for Higher math, its supposed to be the malevolent alien intelligence controlling a vast swarm of customised alien dinosaurs, not a bloody college student.

The "Last chancers" series has a Lictor trying to assasinate a high-ranking Imperial officer (The Colonel, or Kryptmann himself, or someone else, I haven't read it in ages), and it specifically describes it as homing in on "phermenones of a leader". (I guess charismatic people really do smell better).

The Lictor isn't trying to "assassinate" an Imperial Officer, its trying to fucking kill the leader of a bunch of Meats to demoralise the rest.

I find it difficult to fathom how you think dropping an agent in from orbit, who then proceeds on a lengthy hike to an inhabited area and attempts to shank the guy leading the fight against the Hive is in any way comparable to this.

Again, I'm not arguing against the Hivemind is more intelligent than a human, in certain respects it's ncredibly intelligent, but it's a severely lacking intelligence, and it simply is not as intelligent as more focused, self aware, sentient hive-minds.

What a fucking mess, first the Hivemind is more intelligent, then its lacking intelligence, and again its lacking intelligence, but then its very focused, but not as focused as more focused, self aware, sentient hive-minds.(like what, the fucking zerg ?)

This word, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

[white_rabbit]

Hilariously enough, I found this bit amongst my various Nid notes, its taken from the GW website for an online source.

Only fools confuse the ferocity of the Tyranids with a lack of intellect.

[Shroom Man 777]

Thus, to spite everyone, I shall say that the smartest hiveminds are the xenomorphs from Aliens. They are less intelligent than a human, in certain respects very unintelligent, but also very smart and more intelligent as more focused, self-aware and sentient hiveminds that are more intelligent than humans, in certain respects very intelligent, but also severely lacking intelligence, simply not as intelligent as more focused, self aware, sentient hive minds. Capiche?

Genestealers infiltrating Imperium society and co-opting it from within, that's all instinct, man. Animalistic instinct. You see it all the time in nature, when gorillas take over human civilization an' such.

[I am just joking.]

[NecronLord]

Higher fucking math ? What opportunity do you think the Hive Mind has to demonstrate its capability for Higher math, its supposed to be the malevolent alien intelligence controlling a vast swarm of customised alien dinosaurs, not a bloody college student.

Oddly enough, yeah, it has. In the Last Chancers omnibus P. 258 talks about the tyranids potentially assimilating all data from the base and its corrupted personnel. At the very least, to be able to make use of that information about sector wide naval deployments, it would have to be able to understand human mathematics, and operate them at a very high level for navigation. This is literal rocket scientist stuff.

Which should come as no surprise; it must have a great deal of high level mathematics for its ships to be able to coast for long periods as they do. Again, rocket science.

[Shroom Man 777]

They can interface with computers by sticking their tentacles into ports? Or do they get genestealers or other smartgaunts to type away at the keyboard and do hacker stuff?

Genestealer hackers!

"No! The genestealers are cracking away at my sanctified firewall!"

"They must have a 56k modem! Someone, isolate that xeno-infested terminal from the network!"

Genestealer: "Oh no you won't!" *types furiously*

"They've hacked into Necromunda's databases! They've downloaded all our codexes!"

Genestealer: "Yes! I am invincible!"

*adds one more to the list of -gaunts*

[NecronLord]

Actually, I imagined a herd of gaunts carrying big sheaves of papers out of Coritanorum, to a Hive Tyrant hunkered down outside, and holding them up one at a time. The Hive Tyrant scans the page, and nods, then it's flung into a digestion pool. Repeat until they're out of papers.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Actually, I imagined a herd of gaunts carrying big sheaves of papers out of Coritanorum, to a Hive Tyrant hunkered down outside, and holding them up one at a time. The Hive Tyrant scans the page, and nods, then it's flung into a digestion pool. Repeat until they're out of papers.

More like skulls, but same principle .

white_rabbit, you're right, apparently I know shit about Gaunts, I conceed on all points in this thread.