Teh stupid, it burns...Glenn Beck says 'cut corporate taxes'

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Teh stupid, it burns...Glenn Beck says 'cut corporate taxes'

Post by Glocksman »

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NEW YORK (CNN) -- Ah, tax day. The day that we all get together to give our money to an organization that none of us believe actually deserves it.

It's the day we all fund thousands of services that don't really work and that most of us will never use -- like we're overpaying for a mediocre meal at a restaurant where we don't even get to eat it.

It's the day we hope and pray to regain ownership of a small percentage of our own money that was taken from us, and that somehow makes us happy. Not surprisingly, only the threat of prison convinces us to continue to participate.

It's a process so unpopular that even politicians, who want nothing more than to spend your money, will all act like they feel your pain.

Republicans say they will cut taxes for everyone and occasionally they do it. Of course, they don't combine that with a cut in spending, so it's like they stop punching you with their left hand and continue with their right.

Democrats don't even bother to hide their love for spending -- at least not well. They just say all those lucky rich people and evil companies will pay the bills. Being lucky, rich, evil and a company, I really hate tax day.

However, I'm a little unsure which approach is better. Democrats burst through the front door of our convenience store with a gun and tell us to empty the contents of our cash register into their little bag with the dollar signs on it.

Republicans walk through the store and smile at us while shoplifting furiously when we turn our backs. When we catch them on surveillance cameras, they just claim they learned their lesson and won't do it next time. Either way I'm being ripped off, and both parties seem to have the attitude that we should be lucky they graced the store with their presence.

Tax day is truly the lone bipartisan day of the year. We all hate it equally. It's a day that liberals can agree with Ronald Reagan, who said, "High taxes and excess spending growth created our present economic mess. More of the same will not cure the hardship, anxiety and discouragement it has imposed on the American people."

It is also a day when conservatives can agree with John F. Kennedy, who said, "I see no magic in tax dollars which are sent to Washington and then returned. I abhor the waste and incompetence of large-scale federal bureaucracies...."

So, in the spirit of bipartisanship, let me attempt one simple tax policy argument. Lower the corporate income tax.

It's something -- and probably the only thing -- that former GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney and Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-New York, actually agree on. But what makes it so important is the rest of the world agrees on it, too. In a global economy, companies can locate themselves wherever they want. They will set up shop wherever it's easiest to do business. That's also where they will pay most of their taxes and hire thousands of workers.

If you have to make the decision on where to do business, would you choose the country that, according to the Tax Foundation, features the highest corporate state and federal tax in the developed world? I doubt it.

The World Bank and PricewaterhouseCoopers just finished their report studying the burden that businesses face by various tax systems. In what it calls the "ease" of paying taxes, we ranked 76th out of 178 countries overall. That's not good.

Unless, of course, you happen to think "good" is being significantly behind the Sudan and Rwanda. We're also three slots behind Palau, which is apparently a country. Who knew? In fact, we're close to 40 slots behind the two countries we're in the middle of trying to free: Iraq and Afghanistan.

Our total tax rate, which includes all taxes paid by a company -- federal, state, property taxes, etc. -- is a literally insane 46.2 percent, ranking us behind 101 countries overall. How do we possibly expect to compete on the global scale when Borat's home country is 44 slots ahead of us?

Certainly, corporate tax code isn't the only thing attracting business. I doubt there will be a rush of corporate activity in the Sudan after this column. But it's important enough that around the world, the study found 65 countries have improved their tax system in the last three years alone, with the lowering of corporate income tax being the most popular improvement.

I am aware that arguing for a tax cut for companies may seem counterintuitive to some, with all the economic problems "Main Street" is feeling at the moment. But that's exactly why we need it so badly. Now is not the time to chase away the companies that employ us.

Whether you agree or not with the corporate tax cut, you probably at least think you're paying too much. For everyone else, the U.S. Government has created a solution. In 1843, an account was set up to accept additional money, to be considered an unconditional gift to the government. Here is their address:
He may be right in that the current tax code is too complicated, but the solution there is to eliminate the special treatment given to certain corporations and entities and have one single corporate tax rate with no loopholes, not fucking tax cuts.

And I though Hannity was an idiot.
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This is the man who asked a Muslim Representative if he's out to destroy America. And said Iran was more dangerous than any country faced by the USA before. And so forth. And so on.
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Post by Starglider »

To be honest I never really saw the point of corporation tax. It's levied against profit after all expenses including salaries are deducted. There are only two places that money is going to go; into dividends and into the bank for later reinvestment. Dividends can and should be taxed via normal income tax. Taxing savings is also pointless since the company effectively reclaims the tax when they get spent (because profit is lowered in that year); plus we really should be encouraging, not discouraging saving whether it's a corporation or an individual. If sales tax didn't exist I could see an argument for corporation tax, but sales tax does exist so really it just seems like additional pointless beurecracy.
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Post by fnord »

What about introducing dividend imputation?

Essentially, shareholders get a tax credit on their dividends equal to the tax the company has already paid.

Eg, I get a 1000 AUD dividend. Becuase AU corporate tax rate is 30%, I actually receive 700 AUD cash and a 300 AUD credit towards other tax payable - a rebate, not a deduction.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

The day that we all get together to give our money to an organization that none of us believe actually deserves it.
:lol: I love that kind'o talk. No really. If you think the US government doesn't deserve it, move your money into fucking offshores, and better yet, leave the country.

That way normal citizens will be spared from his whine.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Starglider wrote: If sales tax didn't exist I could see an argument for corporation tax, but sales tax does exist so really it just seems like additional pointless beurecracy.
Erm, how is it pointless, when a good portion of government revenue comes from corporate tax.
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Re: Teh stupid, it burns...Glenn Beck says 'cut corporate ta

Post by Lusankya »

Unless, of course, you happen to think "good" is being significantly behind the Sudan and Rwanda. We're also three slots behind Palau, which is apparently a country. Who knew? In fact, we're close to 40 slots behind the two countries we're in the middle of trying to free: Iraq and Afghanistan.
I can't find his source but I did find a pretty little graph, courtesy of Forbes. It's from 2006, but meh. I doubt it't that inaccurate. The countries that the US is "beating" include Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Finland and Sweden. Meanwhile, the bottom half of the list seems to be liberally populated with countries that I like to lump into the category of "places I don't want to live".

Maybe Glenn Beck should realise that you don't necessarily want to be "ahead" of Somalia and Iraq on every list. (Of course, it would seem that in this case he rather arbitrarily chose a direction to be "good" and then assigned his values based on that, rather than things like, say, the strength of the various countries' economies.)
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Post by LapsedPacifist »

Starglider wrote:. If sales tax didn't exist I could see an argument for corporation tax, but sales tax does exist so really it just seems like additional pointless beurecracy.
There isn't a national sales tax in the US. There are two states without one.

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Post by Darth Wong »

Starglider seems to think there is some kind of ethical principle prohibiting the application of taxation more than once in the process from production to retail. I really don't see why that needs to be the case. If the overall resulting rates are excessive that's one thing, but the argument that it's somehow intrinsically wrong to apply them at more than one point in the process seems like nothing more than bald assertion.

I suppose one could argue that it means excessive bureaucracy, but that's inevitable when you have countries are actually federations of semi-independent states or provinces.
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:Starglider seems to think there is some kind of ethical principle prohibiting the application of taxation more than once in the process from production to retail.
Nope; my objection is simply to the additional bureaucracy required. Every separate tax you impose requires a new legion of tax inspectors, imposes additional accounting burdens on the economy (I loathe accountants getting paid huge sums to shuffle figures around without actually making anything more efficient) and spawns a new set of tax avoidance specialists (who also suck up money without doing any genuinely useful work).

It would be nice to tax the economy in just one place, e.g. income, but unfortunately that tends to cause severe distortions. Still as I say I can't see what corporation tax gets you if you already have income, sales and property tax, and collecting it costs the entire economy a significant amount.
the argument that it's somehow intrinsically wrong to apply them at more than one point in the process seems like nothing more than bald assertion.
No, it's not intrinsically wrong, but it has definite and significant costs and to defend its existence you must point out compelling benefits (just like sales tax - in fact income tax is really the only that it's patently obvious we can't do without).
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Post by Darth Wong »

Starglider wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Starglider seems to think there is some kind of ethical principle prohibiting the application of taxation more than once in the process from production to retail.
Nope; my objection is simply to the additional bureaucracy required. Every separate tax you impose requires a new legion of tax inspectors, imposes additional accounting burdens on the economy (I loathe accountants getting paid huge sums to shuffle figures around without actually making anything more efficient) and spawns a new set of tax avoidance specialists (who also suck up money without doing any genuinely useful work).

It would be nice to tax the economy in just one place, e.g. income, but unfortunately that tends to cause severe distortions. Still as I say I can't see what corporation tax gets you if you already have income, sales and property tax, and collecting it costs the entire economy a significant amount.
One could just as easily say that they don't see what sales tax gets you if you already have corporate tax. This argument seems to devolve to the general impetus to a single unified tax, which, as you say, wouldn't work either.
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Post by Starglider »

Darth Wong wrote:One could just as easily say that they don't see what sales tax gets you if you already have corporate tax. This argument seems to devolve to the general impetus to a single unified tax, which, as you say, wouldn't work either.
You could. Unfortunately I'm not really qualified to debate the relative merits of sales tax and corporate tax; sales tax seems harder to fudge/manipulate and more tied to the real economy, but that's a non-expert perception. I was hoping someone with more knowledge than me could give a clear reason for the existence of corporation tax.
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Post by UCBooties »

Does anyone know if his figure of 46.2 percent tax is accurate? If so, that does seem a bit high. However it's also worth noting that even if that is the percentage of a company's profit expected by the government, it's nothing close to what they'll actually receive due to the loopholes in the current tax structure.
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Post by Surlethe »

It's something -- and probably the only thing -- that former GOP presidential candidate Mitt Romney and Rep. Charlie Rangel, D-New York, actually agree on. But what makes it so important is the rest of the world agrees on it, too. In a global economy, companies can locate themselves wherever they want. They will set up shop wherever it's easiest to do business. That's also where they will pay most of their taxes and hire thousands of workers.

If you have to make the decision on where to do business, would you choose the country that, according to the Tax Foundation, features the highest corporate state and federal tax in the developed world? I doubt it.
The more I think about this loathsome, servile attitude, the more I despise it. What this person is really saying is this: society should serve the interests of corporations instead of vice-versa. Beck would have us crawl on our bellies to corporations like Abigor to Satan's throne, begging for them to give us the boon of locating in the United States, for in the global economy, a company can blackmail a society by the threat of relocation.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Better yet, as he said, its just a thinly-veiled attempt to serve his own wallet. What an asshole.
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Post by Starglider »

Surlethe wrote:The more I think about this loathsome, servile attitude, the more I despise it. What this person is really saying is this: society should serve the interests of corporations instead of vice-versa.
I just can't get worked up about this. It's the arrangement of numbers on a spread sheet, nothing more. Income tax, sales tax, national insurance and corporation tax all come from exactly the same place (the company bank account) and go to the same place (the government bank account), at least for countries like the UK that have national sales tax and almost all income tax is pay-as-you-earn direct from the employer.

I suppose the theoretical ethical justification for corporation tax is presumably that it's a kind of income tax on overseas company owners, making them pay for the services the country provides that makes their profit-making enterprise possible. This is a case of taxing derived benefit rather than (or as well as) actual usage, because the costs imposed on the country by a company's operations are much more likely to be proportional to sales and staff, not profit (of course companies pay property taxes to fund the local services they use). If you think of the government as a landlord, corporation tax is equivalent to them giving themselves free equity in their tenant's companies, as well as charging a hefty rent. I can't blame companies for trying to escape this.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Just because point-of-origin and point-of-arrival are the same hardly means they are different. They tax different types and volumes of business so they effect different businesses differently. Their economic effects are distinguishable and significantly.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

I don't see any ethical issues. Corporations must be treated like any other tax paying individuals. Just because they were staffed with tax paying individuals doesn't change the fact that corporations are just another entity that is no different from any other individual that might serve the same function as employer. For a company, the profit to a company is as a salary would to an individual. If one were to argue the excessive bureaucracy would be reminded that such arguments could be taken aim at taxing any other individual. The whole point is to generate government revenue to make the country function and corporate tax has always formed a good portion of government revenue as well.
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Post by ArmorPierce »

Starglider wrote:To be honest I never really saw the point of corporation tax. It's levied against profit after all expenses including salaries are deducted. There are only two places that money is going to go; into dividends and into the bank for later reinvestment. Dividends can and should be taxed via normal income tax. Taxing savings is also pointless since the company effectively reclaims the tax when they get spent (because profit is lowered in that year); plus we really should be encouraging, not discouraging saving whether it's a corporation or an individual. If sales tax didn't exist I could see an argument for corporation tax, but sales tax does exist so really it just seems like additional pointless beurecracy.
Maybe if they increased the maximum of capital gains tax from 15% to something much higher your argument would begin to make sense. Since it doesn't you don't. A corporation is a legal person. With it comes advantages and disadvantages, namely tax treatment.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Where does Glenn Beck get off giving his opinion on this issue on a national level anyway? Has he ever held a high level corporate position? Has he ever worked for a government treasury? Does he have an economics degree? Did he even go to college? Is he even funny?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Wicked Pilot wrote:Where does Glenn Beck get off giving his opinion on this issue on a national level anyway? Has he ever held a high level corporate position? Has he ever worked for a government treasury? Does he have an economics degree? Did he even go to college? Is he even funny?
He actually regularly disclaims his opinions as being uneducated and simple. I guess he thinks that makes them more credible. At least O'Liely pretends to be educated and a journalist in his facade, if only a crude camo. This guy publically wallows in his alcoholic hick Mormon cesspool of ignorance.
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Post by Terralthra »

Lusankya wrote:I can't find his source but I did find a pretty little graph, courtesy of Forbes. It's from 2006, but meh. I doubt it't that inaccurate. The countries that the US is "beating" include Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Finland and Sweden. Meanwhile, the bottom half of the list seems to be liberally populated with countries that I like to lump into the category of "places I don't want to live".
UCBooties wrote:Does anyone know if his figure of 46.2 percent tax is accurate? If so, that does seem a bit high. However it's also worth noting that even if that is the percentage of a company's profit expected by the government, it's nothing close to what they'll actually receive due to the loopholes in the current tax structure.
The graph Lusankya posted shows a 46% corporate tax rate on profits in New York, but that's the absolute maximum marginal rate. The vast majority of businesses simply don't make enough profit to be taxed at that rate.

Of course, Glenn Beck says 46% as if every corporation pays 46 cents per dollar of profit.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Wouldn't a decrease in corporate taxes only encourage more cost-cutting, because they will keep more of the after-tax profit for dividends and other purposes? And if corporate taxes were higher, wouldn't that mean the corporations have less incentive to forego R&D costs and salary increases and capital expenditures and all of the other stuff that reduces quarterly profit but improves the long-term outlook?

And if corporate tax reductions have the effect of keeping corporations from outsourcing to India, then why has Bush's corporate tax-cut regime not reduced the outsourcing trend?
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Post by aerius »

Think "trickle down economics". For whatever reason the stupid idea just refuses to die, even though it's been proven that it doesn't fucking work in real life.
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