Radio "Telepathy"

[Kitsune]

I was thinking about an idea with science fiction.
How about an alien race which could transmit through some organ radio waves and receive it the same basic way.
Is it reasonable? I was thinking that in their primitive "hunting" stage, it could be extremely useful.
Also, would it be considered "telepathy" or would you call it something else?

[Broomstick]

Telepathy? How would this be any different than any other language, whether spoken or gestural (like ASL)? They aren't transmitting thoughts, they're speaking to each other.

[Kitsune]

To humans, it might appear as telepathy

[Zixinus]

Also, would it be considered "telepathy" or would you call it something else?

It would be telepathy if they would be able to convey more then just singals, like images and concepts altogether.

Otherwise, using radio will just compromise a primitive signal that can be like a language not that terribly different then our own.

[Bedlam]

Telepathy? How would this be any different than any other language, whether spoken or gestural (like ASL)? They aren't transmitting thoughts, they're speaking to each other.

Arn't all forms of communication basically transmitting thoughts to each other?

I think of an object discribe it to you verbally, in writing or via a drawing and the thoughs of that object are in your mind.

Can anyone think of a decription of telepathy that makes it unique from other forms of commincation?

[Zixinus]

Can anyone think of a decription of telepathy that makes it unique from other forms of commincation?

Direct access to the person's current thoughts as opposed to relying on the person to form communication.

[Starglider]

Arn't all forms of communication basically transmitting thoughts to each other?

Yes. Language is a coding system for models of reality. The fundamental limits of biological communication are similar to those of computer networks; bandwidth, processing power and design/engineering resources. Human speech has fairly lousy bandwidth, but extremely impressive compression, due to the way it leverages the human brain's ability to filter for relevance, fill in details given the key points, and consciously design utterances for maximum evocative effect.

Transmitting real images is very difficult for biology. You need massively more bandwidth; many megabytes per second (even assuming dedicated video compression/decompression wetware) instead of a kilobits per minute. Radio can carry that of course but nerves can't unless grouped into a massively parallel bundle, and it's hard to imagine a biological mechanism (assuming we're limited to earthlike protein biology) that could modulate the radio signal at that data rate. Even if that was somehow possible it would take up a massive amount of brain space for little tangible benefit over language. Finally you've got the problem that the brain builds up real-world images by lots of micro and macro saccades; presumably you'd have to simulate that in wetware.

Transmitting images at a higher conceptual level ('small red sphre in the lower left corner', 'big blue square in the top right') would be more practical but runs into coding ambiguity problems. Brain structure gets more unique and personalised the more abstract you get. Individuals would probably have to learn a visual 'language' before they could understand and send images. An active feedback system would be the only real way to ensure that the image in the target's mind matches the one in yours (though that is a pretty cool form of artistic collaboration).

Transmitting concepts 'directly' just won't work. They're far too nebulous and vary too much between individuals. The best you're going to get is a language with no audible component; there will still be 'words' which combine to produce models. Speed won't increase that much unless you want to hit someone with embarassing stream of consciousness drivel; humans at least aren't set up to design utterances much faster than we can speak it, and with slow 200Hz human neurons significant improvements probably aren't possible. Again, the major improvement is likely to come from some sort of feedback loop that allows near-instantaneous correction of misunderstandings and omissions.

[Starglider]

Incidentally none of that necessarily applies to mechanical telepathy, if sufficiently advanced technology is available in both the physical interface and the control computers. Once again biology is severely limited because it works by convincing protein soup to form itself into working organs, using templates found purely by trial and error. Of course if you have Sufficiently Advanced Technology (tm) (r) you might as well just dump the neurons and replace them with nanoprocessors (in situ if you're one of those degenerates who thinks 'flesh is just so authentic, you know?') anyway.

[Anguirus]

I've been playing with this idea myself for a sci-fi species. I have to own up and say that Schlock Mercenary gave me the idea:

[Hawkwings]

That is exactly what I thought of when I read this thread title.

[Zixinus]

Then here is another attempt at definition:

A form of communication using extra-sensory means to perceive another's train of thought, effortlessly breaking trough language and knowledge barriers.

If I think about it, telepathy would be best explained (from what I have heard) by a brain making a new connection directly at its stem rather then interception of the spine.

Two set of large softwares writing eachother's code.

If that makes any sense.

[EnsGabe]

Transmitting images at a higher conceptual level ('small red sphre in the lower left corner', 'big blue square in the top right') would be more practical but runs into coding ambiguity problems. Brain structure gets more unique and personalised the more abstract you get. Individuals would probably have to learn a visual 'language' before they could understand and send images. An active feedback system would be the only real way to ensure that the image in the target's mind matches the one in yours (though that is a pretty cool form of artistic collaboration).

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're describing, what you're saying is true irrespective of transmission medium. In terms of spoken language, we already describe things in terms of a 'high level abstraction'- we leverage our common cultural backgrounds when talking to each other to describe events to each other. Saying, "I went to the state fair" leverages our common understanding of a state fair. Without the 'high level abstraction' we'd be reduced to describing the scene as 'I went to a place that had many people come to it from several miles distant wherein they had the chance to compete in various events and sell various goods that they had grown and ..." and so on. And that's being generous- you're still utilizing abstract notions when giving that description.

As for an active feedback system to ensure coherent communication, isn't that (unless I am, again, mistaken) just a fancy way of describing the process asking "Do you understand what I'm saying?" back and forth?

[Starglider]

Unless I'm misinterpreting what you're describing, what you're saying is true irrespective of transmission medium. In terms of spoken language, we already describe things in terms of a 'high level abstraction'- we leverage our common cultural backgrounds when talking to each other to describe events to each other.

Yes. I was answering the question 'what can radio telepathy do that walkie talkies can't'. The answer is 'not much'.

As for an active feedback system to ensure coherent communication, isn't that (unless I am, again, mistaken) just a fancy way of describing the process asking "Do you understand what I'm saying?" back and forth?

Yes but cutting the delay in the feedback loop down by an order of magnitude or two is likely to create a significant change in the character of communication. We already do this partly with expressions, but that's a very unreliable communication channel.

[Molyneux]

I've been playing with this idea myself for a sci-fi species. I have to own up and say that Schlock Mercenary gave me the idea:

*cut Schlock Mercenary pic*

I have to say that my thoughts were half that, and half those communal sound-based critters in "A Fire Upon the Deep".

[Cyborg Stan]

The 'Tines' race.

[Molyneux]

The 'Tines' race.

Yes, thanks! That was them.
So...natural radio transmitter/receiver organs might have a much more marked effect if they developed before the advent of high intelligence, I think, than if they did after.