Armageddon???? (Part Fifty Up)

[CaptainChewbacca]

Belial couldn't resist taking over. “So Detroit makes all the chariots for the state of Democracy? Which is ruled by Uncle Sam and populated by Feds? And your great general Eff'dee'ar is leading your armies against us, the ones you call the gooks?”

Simple, practical, logical, and completely wrong. I feel bad for the demons, this seems like how we might approach an alien race. Also, too bad for Detroit. How bad does that cock up America?

[JN1]

Oh dear, I'm getting worried for Sheffield and Detroit. OTOH Hell has not yet demonstrated the ability to cause serious damage to cities of the size of these places.
Sodom and Gomorrah were pretty small fry when compared to a modern city.

[Crayz9000]

I get the feeling the Detroit slums are about to be obliterated, but what factories are left will probably survive.

[LadyTevar]

At this point, attacking -any- Allied city that way will be pouring fuel on the fire. The Blitz on London did not break England's resolve, and even after Hiroshima there were Japanese still willing to fight. The Baldricks are just gonna piss us off.

[CaptainChewbacca]

They actually think they'd be hitting strategic targets, though. They don't want to break us or cow us into surrendering, I don't think anyone in charge of hell has any illusions that that would happen. Now, if Belial destroyed 2 cities a week for 10 weeks, that'd start to turn up the dissent.

[Starglider]

Unfortunately Stuart's edits while generally good did add a minor plot hole this time. I originally wrote 'fighting the empire of the gooks' - alluding to the British empire Belial had just heard about. The idea that the demons are the gooks is a cute one, but Belial also knows that this man has been dead for at least a 'human lifetime', and 50 years ago the humans weren't even aware of the demons. Of course humans make elementary logic errors like that all the time, particularly in a new and confusing domain, so Belial doing it isn't a big deal.

[Adrian Laguna]

Nice to see that people haven't forgotten that just because Abrahamic religions got pwnt (with one or two exceptions), doesn't mean some of the taboos they have engendered will go away. It's also nice to see a bigoted moron get his due.

Sodom and Gomorrah were pretty small fry when compared to a modern city.

Half a dozen TOS-1 Burantinos, or a single B-52, could probably replicate either of those stunts. Hell, the attacks on 9/11/01 caused more damage than the destruction of either city, and possibly more than both combined.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Unfortunately Stuart's edits while generally good did add a minor plot hole this time. I originally wrote 'fighting the empire of the gooks' - alluding to the British empire Belial had just heard about. The idea that the demons are the gooks is a cute one, but Belial also knows that this man has been dead for at least a 'human lifetime', and 50 years ago the humans weren't even aware of the demons. Of course humans make elementary logic errors like that all the time, particularly in a new and confusing domain, so Belial doing it isn't a big deal.

Well, they also believe we've been stockpiling weapons in secret for six thousand years. Seen through that angle, its very likely that General Eff Dee Arr is working to fight the Gooks.

[White Haven]

...Hell is going to claim the occupants of the slums of Detroit. I almost pity them. The Baldricks, that is.

[Stuart]

I originally wrote 'fighting the empire of the gooks' - alluding to the British empire Belial had just heard about. The idea that the demons are the gooks is a cute one, but Belial also knows that this man has been dead for at least a 'human lifetime', and 50 years ago the humans weren't even aware of the demons.

Remember, Belial believes that humans have been stockpiling weapons for 6,000 years in readiness for the return of the demons so obviously they are aware demons exist. Reed refers to fighting the empire of the gooks, but Belial believes that humans live in large numbers of small city-states so there's a problem there as well. He's just had a mass of information dumped on him that he doesn't understand but he has to make a play at understanding it to hold his position as the all-seeing lord. So he makes the best fit of it he can and in doing so, assumes that Reed meant demons when he referred to "gooks". The actual hole is that humans and demons weren't fighting a human lifetime ago but that gets lost in the shuffle so to speak.

[Darth Wong]

Belial couldn't resist taking over. “So Detroit makes all the chariots for the state of Democracy? Which is ruled by Uncle Sam and populated by Feds? And your great general Eff'dee'ar is leading your armies against us, the ones you call the gooks?”

Simple, practical, logical, and completely wrong. I feel bad for the demons, this seems like how we might approach an alien race. Also, too bad for Detroit. How bad does that cock up America?

Depends on where they hit it. Detroit, like all modern cities, is a sprawling region. If they hit old Detroit downtown, all they'll do is wipe out a lot of half-empty tenements, boarded-up warehouses, the Renaissance Center, and a few other tourist destinations like the baseball stadium. But I would have to think that Belial wouldn't be quite that incompetent; he can see the area he's hitting, he would have to notice that it's mostly empty buildings and slums.

He would be looking for great furnaces, so he would cast his gaze around until he sees something that suits his expectation, ie- large buildings with smokestacks belching smoke and parking lots full of cars.

PS. "Cleaned up" version updated to add chapter 42. I'll try to keep it current as Stuart adds chapters.

[MKSheppard]

Howedar sez:

Most likely of all: a mall gets glassed--big field of iron chariots with a giant building at the center.

Or a big stadium -- if it's game day

[CaptainChewbacca]

We don't know how big an area he can hit. If he's hitting something 2 or 3 miles across, with lava spreading out from there, its gonna ruin everybody's day.

[fusion]

Belial had been concerned that the intelligence would be dangerously out of date. The constant stream of unpleasant surprises since the heralds had first arrived on earth had driven home how much the humans had changed since the demons last visited earth in strength. But the first informant had been dead less than two human lifetimes, the second barely one. Save total destruction by war, great cities could not change significantly in a mere handful of decades.

Are they still the same?
They shall find out.


Sounds like that Detroit is going to be spared some what unless they get more nagas.

[Sidewinder]

Also, too bad for Detroit. How bad does that cock up America?

I just checked the website of General Dynamics Land Systems, manufacturer of the M1 tanks, which stated, "General Dynamics Land Systems (GDLS), headquartered in Sterling Heights, Michigan, is a wholly owned subsidiary of General Dynamics Corporation. The company designs and builds armored vehicles and subsystems for the U.S. Army, U.S. Marine Corps, and international customers, and is the defense industry’s largest supplier of armored military vehicles."

A quick check on Wikipedia showed that Sterling Heights is several miles north of Detroit, meaning Belial's team is unlikely to damage GDLS' tank factory. The next M1 to rumble through Hell might as well have, "You hit the wrong spot, suckers!" painted on it.

[Sidewinder]

Now, if Belial destroyed 2 cities a week for 10 weeks, that'd start to turn up the dissent.

Considering how damn difficult it was for Belial's team to prepare portals for two cities, it's VERY unlikely the demons will be able to destroy two cities a week for 10 weeks. Hell, I'll be surprised if they can destroy two cities a MONTH for 10 months!

[Eulogy]

Belial had been concerned that the intelligence would be dangerously out of date. The constant stream of unpleasant surprises since the heralds had first arrived on earth had driven home how much the humans had changed since the demons last visited earth in strength. But the first informant had been dead less than two human lifetimes, the second barely one. Save total destruction by war, great cities could not change significantly in a mere handful of decades.

Clearly Belial has never heard of either the Cold War nor of New Orleans.

Belial couldn't resist taking over. “So Detroit makes all the chariots for the state of Democracy? Which is ruled by Uncle Sam and populated by Feds? And your great general Eff'dee'ar is leading your armies against us, the ones you call the gooks?”

Simple, practical, logical, and completely wrong. I feel bad for the demons, this seems like how we might approach an alien race. Also, too bad for Detroit. How bad does that cock up America?

Depends on where they hit it. Detroit, like all modern cities, is a sprawling region. If they hit old Detroit downtown, all they'll do is wipe out a lot of half-empty tenements, boarded-up warehouses, the Renaissance Center, and a few other tourist destinations like the baseball stadium. But I would have to think that Belial wouldn't be quite that incompetent; he can see the area he's hitting, he would have to notice that it's mostly empty buildings and slums.

He would be looking for great furnaces, so he would cast his gaze around until he sees something that suits his expectation, ie- large buildings with smokestacks belching smoke and parking lots full of cars.

In the case of Detroit, he'll likely just piss off a lot of pricks who wanted to buy their SUVs. However, it would be hilarious if - while this isn't likely of course - he ended up hitting some Starbucks or a particulary polluted Wal-Mart.

How does Belial see where to hit, anyway? If he has to peek out of a small portal and look around, he'd have to do so at a distance where he can clearly see what's going on. Tha means that humans can also see him, and all it takes is one person to raise the alarm. (Hell, for all we know he could end up bombing the factories on a holiday, where not that many people would be a work anyway.)

The topography can also work against him. Sodom & Gomorrah were probably pretty flat cities being in the desert and filled with mud huts. Today, however, we can build on almost any slope and most buildings have deep foundations. Even if he does manage to send a barrage of rocks or a river of lava our way I could see it moving off into a lake or pooling into the basements of wrecked structures. And that's not counting the possible effects of sewers or subway tunnels.

To further compound his problems, Belial will run ino a nasty surprise regarding the second strike, looks like. Read the part where Yulupki tries to warn Belial of the risks of not having enough demonpower for a portal and gets cut off? If Belial tries bombng both cities at the same time, but his nagas run into problems, that's be a pretty good distraction don't you think?

The final nail in the coffin? The possibilty of interruption. How Belial gets interrupted carrying out his plans I leave as an exercise for the reader.

[R011]

Wikipedia showed that Sterling Heights is several miles north of Detroit, meaning Belial's team is unlikely to damage GDLS' tank factory.

Seeing as the tank factory is in Lima Ohio, I'd say that's a safe bet. Other vehicles are made elsewhere. Strykers, for instance, are assembled in London Ontario and Aniston Alabama.

[Setesh]

Militarily detroit factories getting cooked will have some limited effectiveness, as some machined parts used by various other manufacturers are made there. It will place a greater burden on other manufacturing centers for those bits but it will be a mere slowdown. It also might not destroy any active factories at all. There are a lot of older factories closed down in the late 70 to mid 90s that are clustered into small industrial parks. If he hits one of them loss of anything but the buildings themselves will be negligible.

[R011]

Incidentally, they don't actually make new Abrams or new Bradleys anymore. They do rebuild them into virtually new machines, though.

United Defense, a subsidiary of BAE Systems Land and Armaments, does its Bradley work at York, Pa., Santa Clara, Calif., Fayette County, Pa. and Aiken, S.C.

[Darth Ruinus]

The demons were throwing baffled glances at each other. Could this 'uncle sam' really afford three legions worth of chariots for his troops? More likely the human was inflating the figure to impress.

Oh, these poor, poor demons. They really, have no clue as what types of wars we have been fighting the past few years.

[Darth Wong]

The demons were throwing baffled glances at each other. Could this 'uncle sam' really afford three legions worth of chariots for his troops? More likely the human was inflating the figure to impress.

Oh, these poor, poor demons. They really, have no clue as what types of wars we have been fighting the past few years.

Well really, we only find modern war comprehensible because it's in our history and we've seen some fairly graphic movie depictions of it. I imagine that even a brilliant thinker would have serious trouble imagining this type of warfare if he had never seen or studied it before.

So many things which seem obvious to us are only "obvious" because we have been thoroughly informed by a social learning environment that we take for granted.

[Alferd Packer]

Well really, we only find modern war comprehensible because it's in our history and we've seen some fairly graphic movie depictions of it. I imagine that even a brilliant thinker would have serious trouble imagining this type of warfare if he had never seen or studied it before.

So many things which seem obvious to us are only "obvious" because we have been thoroughly informed by a social learning environment that we take for granted.

You know, we've got a few hundred demons in captivity. I'd love to see Abigor get shown the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, or something like that, perhaps to drive home the point that he never had a chance.

[Darth Wong]

Well really, we only find modern war comprehensible because it's in our history and we've seen some fairly graphic movie depictions of it. I imagine that even a brilliant thinker would have serious trouble imagining this type of warfare if he had never seen or studied it before.

So many things which seem obvious to us are only "obvious" because we have been thoroughly informed by a social learning environment that we take for granted.

You know, we've got a few hundred demons in captivity. I'd love to see Abigor get shown the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, or something like that, perhaps to drive home the point that he never had a chance.

We've improved our methods since 1944, and Abigor has seen them first-hand. I doubt SPR would have any impact on him. He'd probably say "That wasn't nearly as bad as what they did to us."

Mind you, if he had seen that film sequence the night before his attack began, it might have given him pause. But I imagine he still would have believed he could prevail.

[Phillip Hone]

Even if the demons did destroy a bunch of major human cities, wouldn't that just prompt a human retaliation that would completely glass all of hell's demon population centers? There would certainly be a lot more cause to nuke them then there was to nuke the Japanese. There are of course a lot of problems with that kind of solution, from an ethical/strategic perspective, but it seems to me that it would be the solution that the people of earth will be screaming for if major cities start exploding.