China's loyal youth

[The Grim Squeaker]

China's loyal youth
By Matthew Forney

BEIJING:
Many sympathetic Westerners view Chinese society along the lines of what they saw in the waning days of the Soviet Union: a repressive government backed by old hard-liners losing its grip to a new generation of well-educated, liberal-leaning sophisticates.

This outlook is naïve. Educated young Chinese, far from being embarrassed or upset by their government's human-rights record, rank among the most patriotic, establishment-supporting people you'll meet.

As is clear to anyone who lives here, most young ethnic Chinese strongly support their government's suppression of the recent Tibetan uprising. One Chinese friend who has a degree from a European university described the conflict to me as "a clash between the commercial world and an old aboriginal society." She even praised her government for treating Tibetans better than New World settlers treated American Indians.

It's a rare person in China who considers the desires of the Tibetans themselves. "Young Chinese have no sympathy for Tibet," a Beijing human-rights lawyer, Teng Biao, told me. Teng, a Han Chinese who has offered to defend Tibetan monks caught up in police dragnets, feels very alone these days. Most people in their 20s, he says, "believe the Dalai Lama is trying to split China."

Educated young people are usually the best positioned in society to bridge cultures, so it's important to examine the thinking of those in China.

The most striking thing is that, almost without exception, they feel rightfully proud of their country's accomplishments in the three decades since economic reforms began. And their pride and patriotism often find expression in an unquestioning support of their government, especially regarding Tibet.

The most obvious explanation for this is the education system, which can accurately be described as indoctrination. Textbooks dwell on China's humiliations at the hands of foreign powers in the 19th century as if they took place yesterday, yet skim over the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and '70s as if it were ancient history.

Students learn the neat calculation that Chairman Mao's tyranny was "30 percent wrong," then the subject is declared closed. The uprising in Tibet in the late 1950s, and the invasion that quashed it, are discussed just long enough to lay blame on the "Dalai clique," a pejorative reference to the circle of advisers around Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

Then there's life experience - or the lack of it - that might otherwise help young Chinese to gain a perspective outside the government's viewpoint. Young urban Chinese study hard, and that's pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don't factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government's control of society means there aren't many non-state-run groups to join anyway.

Recent Chinese college graduates are an optimistic group. And why not? The economy has grown at a double-digit rate for as long as they can remember. Those who speak English are guaranteed good jobs. Their families own homes. They'll soon own one themselves, and probably a car too. A cell phone, an iPod, holidays - no problem. Small wonder the Pew Research Center in Washington described the Chinese in 2005 as "world leaders in optimism."

As for political repression, few young Chinese experience it. Most are too young to remember the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 and probably nobody has told them stories. China doesn't feel like a police state, and the people young Chinese read about who do suffer injustices tend to be poor - those who lost homes to government-linked property developers without fair compensation or whose crops failed when state-supported factories polluted their fields.

Educated young Chinese are therefore the biggest beneficiaries of policies that have brought China more peace and prosperity than at any time in the past thousand years. They can't imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn't compute as a valid concern.

Of the 29 ethnic-Chinese intellectuals who last month signed a widely publicized petition urging the government to show restraint in the crackdown, not one was under 30.

Of course, the nationalism of young Chinese may soften over time. As they enter the work force and experience their country's corruption and inefficiency, they often grow more critical. But barring major changes in China's education system or economy, Westerners are not going to find allies among the vast majority of young Chinese on key issues like Tibet, Darfur and the environment for some time.

If the debate over Tibet turns this summer's contests in Beijing into the Human Rights Games, Western ticket-holders expecting to find young Chinese angry at their government will instead find the youth angry at them.

Interesting little article. Posted without further comment.

[PainRack]

Can I say that this is utterly true.. From my interactions with various chinese nationals, they hold on utterly to ideas that would be at odds with both Chinese and Western cultural values in the name of Chinese patriotism.

So, the old Confucian ideas of family first, of having a heir and large number of children are disdained by some of them while they hold on to familial values. They routinely laud their military, ignoring the drawback and other aspects of its weakness, While they may ignore the Taiwan issue altogether, they routinely praise that China should be unified.

[Kane Starkiller]

The rapid growth of China, it's capitalist nature and growing nationalism are more similar to Nazi Germany in the 1930s than Soviet Union. The fact that just like Nazi Germany China also got to organize Olympic games to present it's regime in the best light possible only drives the point home.
Also repressions against Tibetan population are often dismissed as minor disturbance in overall positive picture painted by China's growth just like repressions against German minority groups were dismissed in the 130s.

[Darth Wong]

The loss of a homeland just doesn't compute as a valid concern.

Why should it? Why the fuck are "ethnic homelands" a valid concern?

[K. A. Pital]

The loss of a homeland just doesn't compute as a valid concern.

Of course it doesn't if along with your "homeland" you also bring a dark-age culture, nationalism and other crap with it.

Those people who are quick to support the cause of ethnic separatists must really travel to the "ethnic separatist" "nations" and see what kind of customs the separatists want to enforce.

If that's not enough, well... Jimmy Carter said that the Taliban and Mujahed are a "peaceful Islamic people longing for freedom" or something; it's very comfortable to talk about "opressed culture" from abroad, if you don't have to deal with that regressive shitpiece of a "culture" daily.

I bet the Chinese do have a fucking better grasp of what is going on in their own country than foreigners.

[Coyote]

There is, in the West, this view that Tibet was a peaceful place of hand-holding, kum-by-yah singing Buddhist monks that were ruthlessly trampled by the eeeevil Chinese, unaware that it was a harsh theocracy with near-feudal ideas about land ownership, serfdom, and so on.

China brought things to Tibet like "Jobs" and "an Economy" (of sorts) and so I can imagine there is little sympathy among the Chinese for people who appear to long for a "good old day" when the religious caste held all the power.

China probably ses the Dalai Lama in much the same light that the West saw the Ayatollah Khomeini when he was in exile, and longed for a return to Iran. Except in this case, Tibet actually is better off without the monks in charge, and the 'Ayatollah' has inexplicably managed to accumulate significant sympathy...

[Anguirus]

While they may ignore the Taiwan issue altogether, they routinely praise that China should be unified.

This reminds me of a week-long argument between two very Americanized ethnic Chinese students at my high school. One of them, a very good friend of mine, is the son of an immigrant from Taiwan...naturally, he holds that Taiwan is not part of China. Another friend of ours maintained that it was. No reason, logic, or facts that my friend and I could bring to bear could convince the girl to stop announcing "Taiwan is part of China" and it was only after a fair amount of back-and-forth that she admitted the current government of mainland China may not exercise complete control over the island.

But yeah, I've had the impression that China's youth, especially the affluent ones, are content with their government. One crazy thing I've heard from time to time is that China should not be constrained by "Western ideas of human rights."

[K. A. Pital]

I've been to China and I haven't noticed discontent youth in the urban centers. That's easily noticeable, because it would be talked about at least, were it large.

The rural discontent in China, is pretty much visible however.

[HemlockGrey]

The rural discontent in China, is pretty much visible however.

Most of the time that's not even aimed at the central government, though, but rather the local government bosses. And even that is fundamentally economic in nature rather than political.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The rural discontent in China, is pretty much visible however.

Most of the time that's not even aimed at the central government, though, but rather the local government bosses. And even that is fundamentally economic in nature rather than political.

Eh? Most of the rural discontent has been political. Where are you getting the idea that corruption isn't a political problem? Not least with illegal seizures of land by local party people.

[Sidewinder]

The rural discontent in China, is pretty much visible however.

Right-wing jackasses like Tom Clancy probably hope discontent Chinese farmers (or whoever the hell count as "rural discontent") will rise up against the oppressive Communist government, overthrow it, and install a Western-style democracy in its place.

Not that it matters. As the article notes, the educated youth will get the big money, they'll get the top positions in industry, trade, government, and (most importantly) the military, the discontent farmers are unlikely to overpower them.

[Buddha]

There is, in the West, this view that Tibet was a peaceful place of hand-holding, kum-by-yah singing Buddhist monks that were ruthlessly trampled by the eeeevil Chinese, unaware that it was a harsh theocracy with near-feudal ideas about land ownership, serfdom, and so on.

China brought things to Tibet like "Jobs" and "an Economy" (of sorts) and so I can imagine there is little sympathy among the Chinese for people who appear to long for a "good old day" when the religious caste held all the power.

China probably ses the Dalai Lama in much the same light that the West saw the Ayatollah Khomeini when he was in exile, and longed for a return to Iran. Except in this case, Tibet actually is better off without the monks in charge, and the 'Ayatollah' has inexplicably managed to accumulate significant sympathy...

I have read books written by exiled Tibetan lamas and I can say that they themselves do not mention any glowing terms. They use the same kind of terms one would use to describe one's home country. That is to say that they feel loyalty to it and thier words have more value than a westerner's. There is no Shengri-la vision of perfection and everyone's ideal of paradise. The Chinese did very evil things like making celibate monks and nuns have sex in public and break thier other vows. They demanded miracles and demonstrations of tantric powers that are very secret and require empowerments and initiations. Far from being a civilizing force in Tibet, the PRC has been a brutal force of evil. I won't let this go as people have died and people are dying in Tibet. The past is not justification for the future. The monks who did the wrong in the old days are dead and the new monks of today should not be held responsible.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have read books written by exiled Tibetan lamas and I can say that they themselves do not mention any glowing terms. They use the same kind of terms one would use to describe one's home country. That is to say that they feel loyalty to it and thier words have more value than a westerner's. There is no Shengri-la vision of perfection and everyone's ideal of paradise. The Chinese did very evil things like making celibate monks and nuns have sex in public and break thier other vows. They demanded miracles and demonstrations of tantric powers that are very secret and require empowerments and initiations. Far from being a civilizing force in Tibet, the PRC has been a brutal force of evil. I won't let this go as people have died and people are dying in Tibet. The past is not justification for the future. The monks who did the wrong in the old days are dead and the new monks of today should not be held responsible.

Post proof.

[Buddha]

Post proof.

The proof is on the website of the Tibetan Government in Exile's website which is the best thing I can give you on hand right now. The problem with books is that they don't allow themselves to fast searches. The website is found at The Tibetan Government in Exile Website
It really irks me that there are people who think that the Pro-Tibet people are all in High School and therefore stupid. They don't think that perhaps there is a situation in Tibet NOW that even the idea of karmic retribution does not explain in any real sense. The suffering of the monks now and in the future has nothing to do with what monks did in the past. A bad apple does not ruin the reputation of all apples or all fruit. One bad lama is forgetable and not somthing that gives legitimacy to the brutality of the Chinese government inflicted then and what is inflicted now.

[Sidewinder]

Post proof.

The proof is on the website of the Tibetan Government in Exile's website which is the best thing I can give you on hand right now.

I already noted that BOTH sides in this matter are very ruthless in promoting their agendas. The CCP glosses over the oppression and "cultural genocide" in Tibet, while the Tibetan separatists gloss over the rape, torture, robbery, and murder committed in the Dalai Lama's name when he ruled Tibet. (See here.)

[Buddha]

I already noted that BOTH sides in this matter are very ruthless in promoting their agendas. The CCP glosses over the oppression and "cultural genocide" in Tibet, while the Tibetan separatists gloss over the rape, torture, robbery, and murder committed in the Dalai Lama's name when he ruled Tibet. (See here.)

I would like to put special emphesis on one thing: What they are doing now (the People's Republic of China) is not justifiable in any way. They would not do the immoral things that they did in the past. They know that the world is watching them and they will be all the more careful. When one has the support and gets the goal one will be extra careful not to lose it again. the Tibetans and the Chinese are very "face" sensitive cultures and will try to make a solution that will be agreeable for both sides. At least they should do that.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Post proof.

The proof is on the website of the Tibetan Government in Exile's website which is the best thing I can give you on hand right now. The problem with books is that they don't allow themselves to fast searches. The website is found at The Tibetan Government in Exile Website
It really irks me that there are people who think that the Pro-Tibet people are all in High School and therefore stupid. They don't think that perhaps there is a situation in Tibet NOW that even the idea of karmic retribution does not explain in any real sense. The suffering of the monks now and in the future has nothing to do with what monks did in the past. A bad apple does not ruin the reputation of all apples or all fruit. One bad lama is forgetable and not somthing that gives legitimacy to the brutality of the Chinese government inflicted then and what is inflicted now.

One bad lama? The legacy of serfdom goes on for centuries. Hardly even "one bad lama". Not least these monks support a return of the old government that has refused to denounce the old system of government. Quite frankly, from any government's point of view, support for a separatist cause would have been crushed, brutally or not.

[Sidewinder]

They would not do the immoral things that they did in the past. They know that the world is watching them and they will be all the more careful. When one has the support and gets the goal one will be extra careful not to lose it again. the Tibetans and the Chinese are very "face" sensitive cultures and will try to make a solution that will be agreeable for both sides. At least they should do that.

They should, but human beings have an unfortunate tendency to be short-sighted, selfish, greedy, etc. Or did you sleep through every single history class you've attended?

Also, note that history has a bad tendency to repeat itself. Despite the pledge "Never again" when academics refer to the Holocaust, Holocaust denial and anti-Semetism STILL rear their ugly heads in Germany and France, two nations that bore the scars of WWII and are far more liberal than hellholes like Iran. There is NO guarantee the Tibetan monks will NOT abuse their authority, real or perceived, if Tibet becomes independent, unless you have them all lobotomized so they're incapable of thinking in angry, hateful, lustful, or greedy manners. Hell, history has shown that there is NO guarantee that humans will ever evolve beyond thinking in such manners, unless a government orders the lobotomy of every single civilian to prevent such thinking.

[Gigaliel]

To be honest, I'm more interested in the economic effects of any independence. China's been building up the area (Fancy train!) and I doubt they'll be keen on investment if Tibet miraculously secedes. The only country left with a water port is..India. With the provision of traveling through the Himalayas (awesome). Land-based trade, of course, not very good without pre-established rail or road infrastructure. More so since the best natural resource is minerals.

In terms of economic prosperity it would seem Tibet is doomed to be a Chinese satellite in some form. Not surprisingly, given the area's history.

I would note the Dalai Lama has stated that Tibet's government would be determined in a constitutional assembly, with representatives and what not. Very democratic. That doesn't really help if the Tibetans are rather fond of the Good Old Days, so take that as you will.

[PainRack]

But yeah, I've had the impression that China's youth, especially the affluent ones, are content with their government. One crazy thing I've heard from time to time is that China should not be constrained by "Western ideas of human rights."

That's not unusual..... Its this weird concept that Western values are for westerners and not universal in nature......

They then mix this up with the standard religious fundamentalist crap about sex and liberal values, combined with condemning conservative nonsense in America such as the Christianity or economic laxity and stuff......

From my interaction with muslims both foreign and local, its an idea the conservatives have too, save that its mixed in with religious fundamentalism with regards to Islam and how Christianity is persecuting them........

I always found it laughable. Granted, I had only been friends with 2 americans in real life as opposed to on the net, but the internet variance of American conservatives is a mirror replica of Muslim fundamentalists. And chinese nationalists appear to duplicate Byran and his form of American jingoism on SB perfectly well.

[sketerpot]

They can't imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn't compute as a valid concern.

Part of what they're not being told is that the rising incomes and prosperity aren't going to Tibetans. China is encouraging Han Chinese people to go to Tibet and outbreed the natives, and doing all they can to turn the ethnic Tibetans into an economic underclass and a dwindling minority.

The Han Chinese ethnicity really doesn't have a good record of playing nicely with other ethnic groups. In Taiwan (where I've been living for a few months now) they suppressed Taiwanese culture and language in a way reminiscent of the way the US treated the Indians in the 19th century. Today there's a large lower class of immigrants from poorer east Asian countries, and nobody wants to help them assimilate. The goal is to bring them over here for a few years, exploit them, and then send the foreigners back where they came from. This kind of screw-the-other-ethnicities attitude is amazingly widespread. The troubles in Tibet are just another example.

[ray245]

But yeah, I've had the impression that China's youth, especially the affluent ones, are content with their government. One crazy thing I've heard from time to time is that China should not be constrained by "Western ideas of human rights."

That's not unusual..... Its this weird concept that Western values are for westerners and not universal in nature......

They then mix this up with the standard religious fundamentalist crap about sex and liberal values, combined with condemning conservative nonsense in America such as the Christianity or economic laxity and stuff......

From my interaction with muslims both foreign and local, its an idea the conservatives have too, save that its mixed in with religious fundamentalism with regards to Islam and how Christianity is persecuting them........

I always found it laughable. Granted, I had only been friends with 2 americans in real life as opposed to on the net, but the internet variance of American conservatives is a mirror replica of Muslim fundamentalists. And chinese nationalists appear to duplicate Byran and his form of American jingoism on SB perfectly well.

Well to the mainland chinese anyway...one of their excuses for not really accepting human rights is because china was not responsible for the idea of human rights.

Another reason is more or less how politicial the human rights issue has been...often, if not all the time applying political, economic or military pressure at times for human rights issue...

Furthermore, lots of western self-named liberal media biased news reporting at times only serve to make the chinese agree even more with their governement due to nationlism.


Oh ya, you think US conservative we seen on the internet is bad? Wait till you see some self-named singaporean liberals( YES, because to them, simply opposing the PAP government makes you a liberal) who think EVERYTHING west= liberal. Well...almost everything.

That includes following US example of religion fundamentalism. Seriously, if this is the type of people most of the opposition supporters are in singapore, I rather have the PAP winning even better for the next election. Just to ensure religion fundamentalism does not come to singapore.

[montypython]

They can't imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn't compute as a valid concern.

Part of what they're not being told is that the rising incomes and prosperity aren't going to Tibetans. China is encouraging Han Chinese people to go to Tibet and outbreed the natives, and doing all they can to turn the ethnic Tibetans into an economic underclass and a dwindling minority.

Considering that there are more Tibetans in the provinces around Tibet than inside it, plus they are doing better economically than those inside goes against that assertion, not to mention that treating Han movement into Tibet as being wrong serves those who wish to have cultural apartheid in Tibet for their own ends.

Whatever issues Han Chinese may have, they are still far better than most others in Asia who are even less tolerant (Japanese, Koreans, Malays, etc.) and at least make an effort to mix with the natives. This in the long run has made Chinese culture stronger and more durable.

[The Guid]

Aren't those kind Chinese really good for going into backwards Tibet and making it much better for everyone? They really are learning some good Western values! Perhaps we British could give them some tips on how to turn "backwards" countries around for them.

[PainRack]

Part of what they're not being told is that the rising incomes and prosperity aren't going to Tibetans. China is encouraging Han Chinese people to go to Tibet and outbreed the natives, and doing all they can to turn the ethnic Tibetans into an economic underclass and a dwindling minority.

Not exactly. While they are exterminating Tibetian culture, the economic wealth isn't solely restricted to Han chinese. Its a simple thing. If you wish to do business, you have to learn Mandarin to do so. Work in that aspect. Sign contracts in that aspect. Use Chinese cultural and business practices.

In what way is this different from other countries, in which you have to learn English in order to work there? Japan and Australia both require that you have a functional fluency in their language before you can apply for a work permit.

The Han Chinese ethnicity really doesn't have a good record of playing nicely with other ethnic groups. In Taiwan (where I've been living for a few months now) they suppressed Taiwanese culture and language in a way reminiscent of the way the US treated the Indians in the 19th century.

Which time period are you referring to?

Today there's a large lower class of immigrants from poorer east Asian countries, and nobody wants to help them assimilate. The goal is to bring them over here for a few years, exploit them, and then send the foreigners back where they came from. This kind of screw-the-other-ethnicities attitude is amazingly widespread. The troubles in Tibet are just another example.

The Minan and Miao communities would disagree. It doesn't help that many of these minorities groups live in the less economically developed parts of China, away from the coast.