Praying Man Removed From Plane

[Kanastrous]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24191236/

NEW YORK - A passenger who left his seat to pray in the back of a plane before it took off, ignoring flight attendants' orders to return, was removed by an airport security guard, a witness and the airline said.

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

When flight attendants urged the man, who was carrying a religious book, to take his seat, he ignored them, Brafman said. Two friends, who were seated, tried to tell the attendants that the man couldn't stop until his prayers were over in about 2 minutes, he said.

"He doesn't respond to them, but his friends explain that once you start praying you can't stop," said Brafman, who was seated three rows away.

When the man finally stopped praying, he explained that he couldn't interrupt his religious ritual and wasn't trying to be rude. But the attendants summoned a guard to remove him, said Brafman, a writer who had been visiting New York to talk to publishers.

The plane, Flight 9 to San Francisco, took off without the man. It landed at its destination as scheduled, Brafman said by telephone from his home there.

Robin Urbanski, a spokeswoman for United Airlines, a subsidiary of UAL Corp. with headquarters in Chicago, confirmed the man was taken off the plane and put on another flight Thursday morning.

Urbanksi said flights cannot depart if all passengers are not in their seats, which risks a delay, and it is important that passengers listen to the instructions of the flight crew.

The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which runs area airports, and the Transportation Safety Administration, which handles airport security, said Thursday they weren't involved in the incident.



Fuck off, guys, I'm communing with the Good Lord, here. Y'all can just wait, to take off...

[Masami von Weizegger]

Why didn't he pray two minutes before he got on the plane? Or two minutes after he got off? Or prayed in his seat? Or prayed while in flight, you can generally move about then?

Why not just follow the rules and regulations laid out for a few damn minutes? Jackass.

[Singular Intellect]

Strangely enough, I think my religious belief that I would've needed to boot this guy in the nuts to ensure a speedy journey while crying out loud "God give give me strength for this kick!" is a belief that wouldn't have been respected by him.

Go figure.

[SCRawl]

Maybe I'm just a little thick, but it seems to me that the airline might have overreacted a bit. The timeline makes it seem as though his prayers were a very minor disruption -- it says that he was performing them while the plane was still boarding. If the plane was still being boarded, then there were other passengers who weren't in their seats either. If his prayers continued after the "break" he took to explain himself, then yeah, that could be getting out of hand, and could cause a genuine delay. I also bet that having the guy removed took more than two minutes.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think that there's a really compelling reason to let someone chant to his sky pixie whenever they feel like it, when the convenience or safety of others is an issue. I just don't get that the schedule of this flight was ever at risk.

[Havok]

Why can't an Orthodox Jew stop praying once he starts? What is the actual rule for that?

[Havok]

Maybe I'm just a little thick, but it seems to me that the airline might have overreacted a bit. The timeline makes it seem as though his prayers were a very minor disruption -- it says that he was performing them while the plane was still boarding. If the plane was still being boarded, then there were other passengers who weren't in their seats either. If his prayers continued after the "break" he took to explain himself, then yeah, that could be getting out of hand, and could cause a genuine delay. I also bet that having the guy removed took more than two minutes.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think that there's a really compelling reason to let someone chant to his sky pixie whenever they feel like it, when the convenience or safety of others is an issue. I just don't get that the schedule of this flight was ever at risk.

Fuck this guy. He isn't at his house, his church or where ever the fuck else he goes and prays. He was on a PRIVATELY OWNED and operated vehicle. The people operating the vehicle said sit down, he ignored them, so they said get out. Simple. It's doesn't matter what the reason was, when you are in someone else's "house" you do what they say. If you don't like it, either don't go there, leave or get kicked out.

[Mr Bean]

It's sounds like the airplane is being dicks about this.

Lets review
Plane was not airborne yet, we don't know if it was in the number 1 slot for take-off, but unless it was, the standing praying man did not affect anyone.

Let me repeat that unless that plane was on the airstrip ready to take off in lets say the next five minutes, his praying affected no one.

If he however decided to start praying while everyone was boarding then he might have caused and issue, but as far as the article reads, everyone was boarded, everyone was seated. The man stood up, took at most a dozen steps, stopped and began praying, he continued to pray for two minutes then resumed his seat.

How the flying fuck did he put his passengers in danger? And as other's have mentioned removing him took a hell of allot longer than two minute even if the plane was still at the gate and a security guard was standing by the gate in readyness.

I know from lots of travel experience that flight attendants wander at will up until around thirty seconds before takeoff, then they sit down. This is an issue where a Cover your ass regulation(Between Zee Gate and Zee other Gate No Passenger Shall Ever stand up unless given Permission By Zee Commandant of Zee Plane!) and abused by a few dickish flight attendants to kick someone of their plane.

For once I'm totally with the religous person in the piece, if he wants to stand to pray? More power to you, as long as it's reasonable(It was) it's quiet(It was) and it does not acutally interfiling with the planes operation(It does not unless you decide it was)


But maybe that's just me and having on some serious low-budget(Read seat=MRE crate) airlines and the total kid gloves that air-travel is treated as.


*Edit let me repeat my basic view on the matter, this is only news because the Flight attendants decided to be dicks about it. There's such a thing as obeying the absolute letter of regulation and then there is obeying the Spirit of Regulation. If someone is pacing before take-off and refuses to sit down, then yes kick his ass off. If someone stands up to pray, no worries unless as I said we are in Take-off position number 1.

If he wants to pull porta-rug and pray towards Mecca, that's fine too, assuming he's quick about it and again does not acutally interfere with the operation of the plane. He is not going to make us get off the ground any slower UNTIL we hit the physical runway when it does become a hazard.

[General Zod]

It's sounds like the airplane is being dicks about this.

Lets review
Plane was not airborne yet, we don't know if it was in the number 1 slot for take-off, but unless it was, the standing praying man did not affect anyone.

Let me repeat that unless that plane was on the airstrip ready to take off in lets say the next five minutes, his praying affected no one.

If he however decided to start praying while everyone was boarding then he might have caused and issue, but as far as the article reads, everyone was boarded, everyone was seated. The man stood up, took at most a dozen steps, stopped and began praying, he continued to pray for two minutes then resumed his seat.

Ahem.

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

[Mr Bean]

Ahem

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

I stand corrected, But I stand by my earilier statements about while the plane is moving and such.

There is an issue with boarding, if he's standing up fully blocking the aisle I have an issue as I would have an issue with any FOSWL (Fat-old slow walking lady)

However the piece does not say if he was blocking the aisle any more than is typical on an airplane and standing up, people block the damn thing all the time for a dozen moronic reasons but we don't yank their asses off we sit through it.

Again I say the only reason this thing is an issue is because the flight attendants made it an issue, I've been on planes and been standing for five minutes only two rows from my seat because two old FOSWL's took their damn time about sitting down and putting things in over-head luggage, the fact they could not togther lift one of their bag and I had to help them convinced me they did not have a shread of sense between them.

[Galvatron]

I saw this posted on another board entitled "Praying Jew jettisoned from airplane."

[Superman]

I saw this posted on another board entitled "Praying Jew jettisoned from airplane."

The mental image that I get is some Rabbi looking guy shot out of a plane by a James Bond type ejection seat.

When you decide to ignore the flight attendants, then I guess this is what happens. They're in charge on the plane, and that overrides some guy's retarded religion. Okay, he's not supposed to stop praying, but how about the other 300 people on the plane? He just expects them to sit there and watch him pray and wait for his stupid ass to do his retarded ritual?

[Mr Bean]

When you decide to ignore the flight attendants, then I guess this is what happens. They're in charge on the plane, and that overrides some guy's retarded religion. Okay, he's not supposed to stop praying, but how about the other 300 people on the plane? He just expects them to sit there and watch him pray and wait for his stupid ass to do his retarded ritual?

And from what I'm reading he got the boot for ignoring the flight attendants, not blocking the aisle. Somehow considering how bad the story sounds if the Airliner could say they were kicking him off for blocking the aisle AND ignoring Herr Commandant's orders then they would have stated so.

[General Zod]

And from what I'm reading he got the boot for ignoring the flight attendants, not blocking the aisle. Somehow considering how bad the story sounds if the Airliner could say they were kicking him off for blocking the aisle AND ignoring Herr Commandant's orders then they would have stated so.

Considering how touchy airlines have been about security over the last few months he's lucky the only thing that happened is he was kicked off the flight. Anyone but a completely ignorant twat should know better than to do anything that might disrupt one. I'm also relatively sure Orthodox Judaism is one of those religions that isn't unbearably strict about when and how someone can pray, so I'm having a hard time seeing how this guy can justify his actions.

[Superman]

And from what I'm reading he got the boot for ignoring the flight attendants, not blocking the aisle.

And? I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why ignoring a flight attendant would also be grounds for getting booted.

[Mr Bean]

Considering how touchy airlines have been about security over the last few months he's lucky the only thing that happened is he was kicked off the flight. Anyone but a completely ignorant twat should know better than to do anything that might disrupt one. I'm also relatively sure Orthodox Judaism is one of those religions that isn't unbearably strict about when and how someone can pray, so I'm having a hard time seeing how this guy can justify his actions.

Are you kidding?

Orthodox Judaism is the formulation of Judaism that adheres to a relatively strict interpretation and application of the laws and ethics first canonized in the Talmudic texts ("Oral Torah") and as subsequently developed and applied by the later authorities known as the Gaonim, Rishonim, and Acharonim.

Orthodox Judaism is characterized by: belief that the Torah and its laws are Divine, were transmitted by God to Moses, are eternal, and are unalterable; belief that there is also an oral law in Judaism, which contains the authoritative interpretation of the written Torah's legal sections, and is also Divine by virtue of having been transmitted in some form by God to Moses along with the Written Law, as embodied in the Talmud, Midrash, and innumerable related texts, all intrinsically and inherently entwined with the written law of the Torah; belief that God has made an exclusive, unbreakable covenant with the Children of Israel to be governed by the Torah; adherence to Halakha, or Jewish law, including acceptance of codes, mainly the Shulchan Aruch, as authoritative practical guidance in application of both the written and oral laws, as well as acceptance of halakha-following Rabbis as authoritative interpreters and judges of Jewish law; belief in Jewish eschatology. Orthodox beliefs may be most found in their adherence to the thirteen Jewish principles of faith as stated by the Rambam (Maimonides).

Now remeber which part of the bible contains all the crazy restrictions(Read the Torah) add in even more crazy restrictions (Read the Talmud) and you have a recipy that makes Islam look Secular by comparison. Hard-core Orthodox Judiasm have rules for EVERYTHING imaginable. They are much less religion like and much more cult like in that total control element. But not all brands of Orthodox are created equal, just as not all Fundamentalist's Christian brands are identical. However the key word Fundamentalist(Orthodox) is a big tip-off that his religion is not the "only on easter" church attender type.

[General Zod]

Now remeber which part of the bible contains all the crazy restrictions(Read the Torah) add in even more crazy restrictions (Read the Talmud) and you have a recipy that makes Islam look Secular by comparison. Hard-core Orthodox Judiasm have rules for EVERYTHING imaginable. They are much less religion like and much more cult like in that total control element. But not all brands of Orthodox are created equal, just as not all Fundamentalist's Christian brands are identical. However the key word Fundamentalist(Orthodox) is a big tip-off that his religion is not the "only on easter" church attender type.

I'll put it another way then. If this guy had been doing anything other than praying would he have been even remotely newsworthy or controversial whatsoever?

[Superman]

I'll put it another way then. If this guy had been doing anything other than praying would he have been even remotely newsworthy or controversial whatsoever?

If he were caught jerking off in the bathroom, then that might rival his praying...

Another way to look at this situation is that as soon as that guy ignored the flight attendant and continued to pray, he sort of labeled himself as a pain in the ass. Maybe there's a chance he'll do this again during a situation that's a whole lot worse. He did it once, why wouldn't he do it again?

[Twoyboy]

The ejection has nothing to do with praying. He disobeyed the flight attendants' orders. Upon purchasing your ticket, you agree to abide by all airline regulations, and since part of a flight attendants job is to ensure the safety of all passengers, you damn well should listen to them. They had every right to kick him off, whether he was praying, jerking off or just standing there.

However, the passenger believes that his right to pray should overrule all other rules, which makes him an arsehole.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but it even seems like he did it specifically to get persecuted. Did he have a requirement to pray right at that moment? I doubt it, but perhaps someone of the Jewish faith could clarify.

[Edi]

Twoyboy said exactly what I intended to before I was distracted by a customer. Fuck the orthodox asshole, he got precisely what he deserved.

[PeZook]

Dudes, you just don't get it.

He probably just had to pray, or he'd get the jitters! He couldn't pray in the terminal, with all those "No prayer" signs posted everywhere, this was the only time! I mean, after take-off the "No prayer" lights come on, and...no prayer for the entire trip! And he craved that one single prayer, is this really so much?

Heh...sorry for that, but the analogy to a smoker desperately seeking a place to have a smoke at the airport is just too close.

[Oskuro]

The case might be peculiar enough to be newsworthy, and it is true that the flight attendants could have been more flexible, but it doesn't matter:

It's their plane, and they'll kick you out if they want to.


And the guy was transfered to another flight later on anyways, so it's not like the airline just dumped him and ran with his ticket money.

[Darth Onasi]

The Orthodox Jewish man, who wore a full beard, a black hat and a long black coat, stood near the lavatories and began saying his prayers while the United Airlines jet was being boarded at John F. Kennedy International Airport on Wednesday night, fellow passenger Ori Brafman said.

I hope they confiscated his staff! Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

Seriously though,, any moron knows you don't ignore flight attendants in that kind of situation in this day and age. Frankly if I was a passenger and I saw that, I'd want him the hell off.
If his prayers are more important than the piece of mind of the passengers and crew then fuck him.

[Mr Bean]

I'll put it another way then. If this guy had been doing anything other than praying would he have been even remotely newsworthy or controversial whatsoever?

Yes, getting kicked off a plane is newsworthy, it's a slow news day. Remember they report when people get kicked off for being disruptive, or in one case, to fat to sit the the damn airline seat.

Slow news day, repeat after me.

[Coyote]

If the plane was still boarding, that mean that there was still hordes of slow, clueless old fatties lumbering down the isle. The guy went to the back of the plane, by the lavatories (which are already off-limits when parked on the ground, so he wasn't in the way of anyone).

The airline over-reacted. The ignorant flight attendant saw a strangely-dressed man praying in some ritual manner and hit the panic button, probably thinking he was a MOOOOOZ-LIM! and flipped. Anyone who's been on a plane, or indeed anywhere where there's Orthodox Jews (ahem, New York) would know that this is quite normal. Take an El-Al flight and watch Orthodox guys doing that in flight in the back.

Suppose, for example, that this person wasn't religious at all, but just scared of flying, and went to the back, out of the way, to do some quick Yoga or breathing exercises to calm himself. Of course, here on SDN, it's a stacked deck. As soon as they see that someone religious was doing something, then the soundtrack skips, the scene goes blood-red, and for the next twenty minutes it's like a scene from 28 Days Later, complete with rabid shrieks of anger and flying bloody spittle.

[Twoyboy]

Suppose, for example, that this person wasn't religious at all, but just scared of flying, and went to the back, out of the way, to do some quick Yoga or breathing exercises to calm himself.

Then the flight attendants would have asked him to go back to his seat. If he refused to answer they would have assumed there was something amiss and had him removed from the plane. What's your point?

As I said, he broke the airlines rules. They took him off the flight. The reason doesn't matter. Airlines and flight attendants probably have so much shit to deal with they don't have time to sort this crap out. Well within their rights to do what they did, and if he had no reason to go and pray right at that moment then he was either being an arsehole or being stupid.