Subduing an Upity Wizard.

[xammer99]

Hey folks,

I need some help.

Here is the situation, the Wizard in my group has thoroughly hacked off his fellow party members and the soldiers they just teamed up with to take out a fort full of bandits. First, they discovered a rather substantial bit of treasure (20K gp in value), and instead of sharing it with the 20 soldiers, he insists paying them 1300gp total. The soldiers are reasonable guys, but a bunch of their buddies got killed in the assault (10).

Second, the Wizard is riding back to town on 2 barges w/ the 20 soldiers and 20K gp. The group’s paladin, barbarian, and ranger all went off to finish another part of the mission, and so are effectively out of his bit for awhile.

So…what I need help with is some good ideas for how to beat the crap out of the wizard, rob him blind, and leave him tied to a tree. All preferably w/o killing him because while they want a fair share and think he’s a total dick, they know he’s an asset to the kingdom (there are some other reasons as well for leavin him alive).

Here are the capabilities of each group.

The Wizard: 8th level Diviner, no magic items of note. He does have Scorching Ray, Lightning Bolt, Fly, Dimension Door & Detect Thoughts commonly memorized. So take those into account.

The Soldiers:

18 Fighters 4, armed w/ Light Crossbows, Longswords, Breastplates, shields. Reasonable “soldier” gear for Light Infantry.
1 Rogue 3/ Fighter 2, Same armament as above, and is the Sargent/leader of the group.
1 Scout 4, Same armament as above, his element of scouts is what took the worst beating and so he has a real grudge against the PCs.

The soldiers are all veterans and professionals. They have faced wizards recently, so while its not fun, they do have experience doin it, so no morale problems. Also they have observed him casting his combat load of spells (including the above) and discussing it and his other spells during the planning phase of the fort assault.

Rule Modifications we are using:

1. WP/VP option.
2. Action Points option. So the Wizard can do a Silent DimDoor as an emulated Sudden Feat.

Currently my best option is they just flat out slip him a mickey in his food at each meal until he reaches town. But if he turns paranoid and doesn’t share with’em, or makes his saves, I need some options.

My other option is to fake an attack to draw him out of his tent at night and they dog pile him, but obviously he could escape that w/ DimDoor, even if they are grappling him.

Or if you are grappled, does that put you over the limit for DimDoor?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[General Zod]

Can't they just shank him while he's sleeping and forego trying to draw him out?

[xammer99]

They certainly can, but as I said, I'd rather avoid killin him.

If I wanted him dead I'd just have'em surround his tent at night and fill it full of crossbow bolts.

[Joviwan]

Your wizard can't possibly have more than 40 or so HP, 30 if he's rolled average hit dice and has a +1 con modifier. Your rogue can easily get the drop on him with sneak attack and a sap for nonlethal damage. Sneak up on the wizard, or just get into a flanking position with the other guys, and wail on him. If the wizard can't be taken down in 1 round with everyone beating the crap out of him with nonlethal damage, something is wrong; You put 9 guys around him, one for every threatening square. Your archers have Precise Shot? Give them the high ground on the ship with ready actions to fire a volley of quarrels at the mage if he tries to DD out of the gangbang; they can't kill him quickly and can probably disrupt the spell. Any of them good at grappling? Maybe one or two of those 19 fighters like to 'wrastle': Grappling is the wizard's kiss of death, and everyone can STILL wail on him with nonlethal damage.

[xammer99]

So would it be a reasonable ruling that you couldn't DimDoor if grappled b/c of the weight restrictions? Assuming of course he pulled off the Concentration check.

[Yogi]

How paranioid is your Wizard? If he periodically casts Detect Thoughts he's going to find out about plans pretty quickly, and he'll just Fly (and Wind Wall if he has it) and begin beating the crap out of the Fighters, using Dimension Door to escape. The only real way to get him is if the entire plan is concocted and executed while he is asleep, assuming he doesn't have his room magically trapped or locked.

To keep him subdued, just knock him out with non-lethal damage, and have someone smack him around every hour or so for more non-lethal damage to make sure he stays knocked out. Also, burn his spellbooks just to make sure he stays down in case something goes wrong.

[Raj Ahten]

I'd say the best option would be to bum rush the wizard while he sleeps. Have about 4-5 guys grapple him while 4-5 more hit him with saps and stuff. Unless he has an aracane lock up, they can get in. If his familiar keeps watch, likely he will wake up, in a prone position, just in time to be grappled. he'll be flatfooted (grapple) and -4 to ac (in bed, basically prone) when the other men hit him with saps. You could also just have the men do this while he is on deck, as long as he isn't expecting it. Unless he has still spell, and the material components in his hand (literally), he is likely fucked.

It's a pity there isn't a cleric available, as all it would take would be a single silence spell and then the wizard can't cast any spells, unles he is prepared for that specific eventuality (such as having silent spell feat or a rod of metaamagic).

[xammer99]

He's rather paranoid, so I imagine he'll put an Alarm around his tent. But if he does that, then they can still bum rush his tent and dog pile it, beating him down while he's inside it.

But yeah, if he gets loose, they are in trouble.

As for burning the spell book. Was thinking more along the lines of using it for toilet paper.

[Joviwan]

So would it be a reasonable ruling that you couldn't DimDoor if grappled b/c of the weight restrictions? Assuming of course he pulled off the Concentration check.

He can still pull off the spell, actually, by making a concentration check DC20+spell level, but he cannot cast it defensively, meaning he provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone in melee with him. If he still gets the spell off, you're doing it wrong.

Detect thoughts is the only sincher there, but as has been said, planning while he's sleeping is probably the best bet. If the idiot doesn't use Alarm, the scout and the rogue sneak into his tent, grapple him, pin him, and then everyone starts wailing on him with saps and uncomfortable punching.

Toilet paper is good, just make sure to shred the paper, first. Whole sheets can be Prestidigitation and Mended back together, I believe, so you want lots and lots of being torn to pieces. If this is a Blessed Book, my man, god bless you.

[Eulogy]

Would it be possible to lull the Wizard into a trap by taking advantage of Detect Thoughts? He's obviously a greedy, callous bastard, so feeding misinformation to somebody about a treasure cache that nobody else knows about might get him into a trap. Or have someone hug him for doing a job well done and THEN zerg rush him.

[Hotfoot]

Okay, first off, you're wussing out. Leaving this dick alive only means retribution later. Kill him as a traitor and be done with it, burn his body and scatter the ashes.

Okay, first off, get some poison. Something that induces sleep would be enough, you just need him knocked out for the start of this, and with what is sure to be an absolutely shitty fortitude save, you are almost assured to get him in the first dose. Slip some into his food one night when you find a nice boar in the woods and cook it up. Oil of Taggit only costs 90 gold and forces a DC 15 Fort Save. Just give it to him until he fails a test. Buy it on the sly from the GM at the next town or whatever.

While he's out, tie his ass up so he's prone and helpless. Take his spell components and spellbook, then loot his body to your heart's content.

Now, next, I would get a heavy pick and a rogue with a strength bonus of at least +2 and perform a coup-de-grace, which will either instantly kill him on damage alone, or absolutely kill him as he fails the DC30+ fort save vs. death.

Start being friendly to him, not too much, but say you understand why he did what he did, and while you still think it was a dick move, you can live with it. DO NOT SPRING YOUR TRAP RIGHT AWAY. Let him be paranoid for a while, let him catch you doing something that could be suspicious, but is really innocuous. You know, like eying a scroll suspiciously, while glancing at him. This works best if you're a rogue with use magic device. He'll get worried, come over and see what's up, and you'll simply say that you found this scroll of identify and you thought he might find it useful, but you wasn't sure if he knew the spell already or if he usually dedicated slots to it, etc. Offer him the scroll, and move on.

Things like that, over time, build trust, as long as you're not too blatent. Then, once he trust you enough, make him a meal. Include the poison, and commence the beatdown/murder as you see fit.

Serve with a nice ciante.

FOR BEST RESULTS, HAVE DINNER AFTER A LONG DAY WITH LOTS OF COMBAT AND/OR SPELLCASTING. If you can get him after he's expended his spells, all the better.

[Hawkwings]

Are you the GM? If so, you could always go with GM fiat and come up with whatever contrived situation you want.

[Joviwan]

Are you the GM? If so, you could always go with GM fiat and come up with whatever contrived situation you want.

Contrived isn't the same as awesome; While it sounds like the GM, and it certainly sounds like he is trying to contrive, it needs to be done in a way that it isn't blatantly so, because where's the fun, otherwise? It needs to be plausibly escapable and readily explainable. Rocks fall, you all die never works. Pissing off a bunch of soldiers that can out-melee you at half your level? It's not so surprising to have them come beat the tar out of you.

[Hawkwings]

Well of course, I'm just saying that as a GM, he has a lot more options available than if he were a player.

Heck, he could do a sequence where all the wizard's money is dumped off the barge because of a random animal attack, and he has to spend a bunch of time trying to recover as much as he can from the riverbed.

[SCRawl]

If xammer's the GM, why would it be important to him whether or not the wizard gets what's coming to him? I mean, sure, it's nice to run an orderly campaign, but if one of your players gets out of line then either (a) let circumstances take their course, or (b) let the other players start (a).

If the wizard dicked with the wrong NPCs, and the NPCs have the means to take him down, then let them take their shot. Some of the scenarios suggested here sound workable.

[Akhlut]

Scouts have sneak attack or something like that, as I recall, so he and the rogue could work out something where the scout takes a potshot at him and then the rogue sneak-attacks him nonlethally, and they take his money and spellbook and ransom it back to him or something. Don't forget the wonderfulness of suprise rounds, especially if the scout has the feat "precise shot".

[Stormin]

I think in the arms and equipment guide there are special arrows with thunderstones on them, those might do for an alternative to the silence spell.

[Joviwan]

I think in the arms and equipment guide there are special arrows with thunderstones on them, those might do for an alternative to the silence spell.

Thunderstones just have a chance of making you deaf; they don't prevent you from casting somatic spells. You DO suffer a percentage chance of failure, though.. So it's not a terrible idea, I suppose. Just don't hit any of your buddies.

[Stormin]

20% miscast and a hefty initiative penalty I believe.

[Mr Bean]

You know what's better than expensive thunderstones?
A cheap bag of flour flung in their face, their coughing, their disoriented, and their blind!

Plus invisibility is already negated before it's even cast as the flour falls of them and stains everything they touch.

Thunderstones, what 20-30 gold each?
Bag of Flour 1 copper piece... hmmm
Anyway, these are guards there are so many ways to fuck up a mid level Wizard who's not sleeping with his own guards.

Wake him up with flour to the face them go in for an old fashion mafia beating of non-lethal damage and that old fighter favorite. Grapple them, pin them, then sit in their chest and punch them in the face until they stop trying.

[Rhoades]

Detect thoughts is the only sincher there, but as has been said, planning while he's sleeping is probably the best bet. If the idiot doesn't use Alarm, the scout and the rogue sneak into his tent, grapple him, pin him, and then everyone starts wailing on him with saps and uncomfortable punching.

I disagree about Detect Thoughts being any serious threat. For the simple reasons: A) It has a limited range. B) It has a rather short duration. and C) It requires concentration to keep it active. Wizard can have it up all the time.

The best time to rush him is not when he sleeps, but when he's preparing his spells. He'll be sitting on a patch of dirt reading a book when 20 men rush him, and chances are that his spell slot will be depleted. Bull-rush and yank the book. Even on the off-chance that he can Dimension Door, he's 1000 feet away from the cart, the gold, and his spell book!. If his familiar is still around, pluck a few arrows in it and that will hurt the wizard.

That's worse than any non-lethal beating.

[Napoleon the Clown]

I agree with pretty much everyone else. Just get the guys he's shafted to put the beatdown on his ass. If you want to be mean, find a way to deplete all his spells and then have the soldiers start muttering about "Tonight's the time to get that bastard..." while close enough he has a reasonable chance of making his Listen check. And proceed to have them stalk him, waiting till he falls asleep. If he makes the listen check, he'll probably be too scared to sleep. And believe me, he'll suffer from sleep deprivation quicker than the soldiers. Especially if they start sleeping in shifts so there's always a few ready to beat his ass. Remember, a Wizard needs 8 hours rest to prepare his spells, and it's damn difficult to rest at all when there's an angry mob with crossbows glaring at you. The advantage here is he may learn his lesson and pay out the nose to placate the angry soldiers.


Poison could be an expensive option, so unless there's a way to get ahold of it without a severe case of deus ex machina, don't use it.

Really, a simple and straightforward method will work best, especially because he's still only midlevel. He's nothing to scoff at, but he's still very fragile and doesn't have the spells that really make a Wizard a force to be reckoned with. And little is simpler than an angry mob coming to pay you a visit.

[Stark]

I think it's funny how many of these threads exist that basically say 'I can't actually run a game or maintain adult relationships so how can I hide behind the RPG rules to 'punish' this guy because I'm too soft to deal with it myself'.

Frankly, I find this kind of internicine player-rulage to be quite awesome: it's called 'role playing', wherein you pretend to be someone you're not. Everyone I know can deal with this as a group and as a GM without having to run to the internet or use the RULES to control the game. Crying 'oh noes a player is disruptive/not a team player/hurts my feelings' is just so fucking lame when it's trivial to deal with if you've got a spine.

[Joviwan]

Maybe all he really wants to do is come up with an effective way to beat the crap out of the party wizard, and this was all just a clever facade!

More seriously, this guy did something the party got mad about; Did their CHARACTERS get mad about it, or just the people playing them? I was operating under the assumption that this was all happening through character interaction, but Stark's comment makes me want to be reassured somehow; Punishing the character is all fun and good times. Punishing the player is a different matter entirely.

[Molyneux]

Also, burn his spellbooks just to make sure he stays down in case something goes wrong.

Burn his spellbooks? That seems pretty extreme, if they're not planning on killing him off.