Mac vs. PC

[discordian_saint]

Something not mentioned yet in this thread is that Mac is widely used in the recording industry at every level from the big recording studios to the solo artist trying to break into things. The Mac does not suffer from audio latency like all Windows machines do when recording audio so instrument inputs such as keyboards do not suffer the audible delay over the monitors which is annoying as all get out. You will find Macs on stage as much as you will in the studio these days.

I used Ubuntu for about a year and while it was pretty nice and easy to use I still bought a 24" iMac when it came time to upgrade machines. It has the power and security of Linux without many of the headaches of configuration. I use it to record and create music, using Apple's Logic software but that is only a hobby not a profession. I bought a copy of XP Pro and VM Fusion so I can boot into a native XP session to game or fire up a virtual machine as needed to handle tasks in software I still have Windows versions of that I haven't replaced with Mac ones like Photoshop and AutoCAD.

There is no real reason for any person to try and convince anyone why windows/linux/os x is better for them. It is a personal choice that's all. Personally I am in awe of the quality of the LCD Apple used in the 24" model iMacs. The color quality, brightness and resolution are one of the first things anyone mentions who visits me and sees it for the first time. It is also really nice to have all the "office" and "life" applications be so tightly integrated. I love the ability to drag and drop pictures right off a webpage if I want and put them into any number of applications from iTunes to Keynote or Pages. I like the fact that the 4GB of RAM I have installed is well and fully used. I can see a marked difference in how smooth and quickly filters and signal processing is applied in Logic or rendering is done with Bryce.

The only things I still "need" windows for is most games and my professional engineering work life (Solidworks and AutoCAD). But having the flexibility to get the best of both worlds from Redmond and Cupertino is what keeps me happy.

[Seggybop]

Something not mentioned yet in this thread is that Mac is widely used in the recording industry at every level from the big recording studios to the solo artist trying to break into things. The Mac does not suffer from audio latency like all Windows machines do when recording audio so instrument inputs such as keyboards do not suffer the audible delay over the monitors which is annoying as all get out. You will find Macs on stage as much as you will in the studio these days.

I guess you never heard of ASIO?

[Durandal]

Something not mentioned yet in this thread is that Mac is widely used in the recording industry at every level from the big recording studios to the solo artist trying to break into things. The Mac does not suffer from audio latency like all Windows machines do when recording audio so instrument inputs such as keyboards do not suffer the audible delay over the monitors which is annoying as all get out. You will find Macs on stage as much as you will in the studio these days.

I guess you never heard of ASIO?

A protocol that bypasses the kernel mixer to achieve low latency is simply not preferable to one that can achieve low latency and go through the kernel. ASIO shuffles the audio directly from input to the sound card to achieve low latency, meaning that you are restricted to what can be done on the sound card in terms of filters and transforms to your stream. Whereas with CoreAudio, you get a low-latency software path.

I don't think the professional DJs and stage technicians who mix this stuff are stupid. They use the platform that best suits their needs.

[phongn]

There's WaveRT in Vista now, but it apparently lacks support for USB or FireWire devices(!)

[discordian_saint]

I guess you never heard of ASIO?

I have heard of it but have not used it. One of the reasons I purchased a Mac was to indulge my music hobby and as such this was the first time I attempted to assemble a DAW(Digital Audio Workstation). I did not realize there was a latency issue until I bought an M-Audio 44key MIDI controller and read about the problem in the manual. At that point I made the effort to research why Macs were used so much for audio work beyond the anecdotal comments you read in magazines like Remix and Electronic Musician.

[Crayz9000]

Well, Linux has a low-latency through-kernel audio path available as well in the form of JACK, and there are a couple of audio workstations you can use with it: Ardour and Rosegarden.

Then again, in the recording industry ProTools is pretty much the standard, so that's a pretty hefty incentive to get a Mac anyway. I'm not sure how the Windows version of ProTools handles the latency issue, anyway, perhaps by going straight through the audio hardware as mentioned above...

[Resinence]

You can run jACK on OS X as well

[Crayz9000]

You can run jACK on OS X as well

Yes, quite true, but then again most people who buy Macs also prefer to buy the software to go with them... Not that JACK being cross platform is a bad thing.

[Lisa]

One thing Apple has over Linux is tech support. Try calling Hp, Cannon or any other third party hardware vendor and getting support installing one of their printers in linux... then call for OSX support. Also Macs come with techsupport for themselves. I took a brief look on what it would cost to get telephone support from one Linux vendor and it was $240. Dell doesn't offer any telephone support for Linux (and the last time I looked into it, it cost more to get a Dell with Linux than Windows, and that was if you navigated the maze of their website), I'm not sure any of the vendors that do (ASUS might on the eeepc).

As for prices in the USA hardware can be compared and some times prices are in favour of Apple. I compared the mini (a shuttle system) with a similarly equipped ASUS shuttle system from newegg (a low cost vendor) and the ASUS system was $100 dollars more with a slower processor and a slightly bigger hard drive.

An iMac may seem overpriced when comparing it to a desk top but one needs to remember an iMac is basically a laptop motherboard sandwiched into an LCD monitor. You're looking at 200-280 watts power usage for the iMac, a stand alone desktop + monitor uses more. Comparing to an entry level AIO from Dell you got the better video card with Apple (Dell's is intergrated shared memory), a gig more ram and .2 ghz faster with Dell. You get the full operating system with Apple (home premium with Dell). and no annoying activation.

What I'm surprised Apple doesn't make is a headless tower that doesn't have the power of the MacPro. Something comparable to a midpoint iMac with desktop components. But that doesn't seem to be a market Apple wants to enter.

Is the premium you would pay in poland worth it? I couldn't tell you... I probably wouldn't be spending that kind of coin on a computer. Would running Linux or FreeBSD be better? well I know you can install things like flash on Linux, though I don't know the difficulty involved (with OSX and Windows you just click and it's installed), how ever with FreeBSD I know flash is a pain in the ass.

[Oskuro]

My opinion goes along these lines.... Linky

I don't have much experience with the Mac, but I feel the whole Mac "movement" is too full of itself for its own good. Computers must serve a function, and sometimes they seem more concerned with form (you know, like Vista).

If form is important (say you need nice computers for a front desk or something), go ahead. I just can't stand the types that whine for a Mac just because it is supposedly better... I mean, the whole office is using PCs, and the graphic designers in charge of web graphic design (you know, low weight graphics) won't stop whining because they "need" Macs to do their job.
Sure, I have to compile on a crappy pentium II, and the company has to expend several grand on your machine? Jeez... Either justify your need, or shut up.


Oh well, just my lowly take on it.

[RThurmont]

You can do graphics design just fine with Windows. However, the color management functionality in OS X does make it easier for some designers, especially those who are dealing with print, where if you screw up a color, the results will be ugly and expensive. There is a whole art form to monitor calibration for print production, and many graphics designers are (justifiably paranoid) about having their workstations match, as closely as possible, the finished product.

Other aspects of the Mac are also beneficial, in this respect (the one thing OS X does do right in my book is font rendering).

However, I do my design mostly on WinXP boxes, some with 512 mb of RAM. Its cheaper and more brutally effective from my perspective, given the work that I do. If the MacBook Air had an ethernet port though, I would get one for design work...

As an aside, the recent gripes about certain iMacs having crappy displays in terms of color output are really interesting in light of Apple's historic dedication to accuracy in color displays...there seems to be a trend at Apple to "break" lower end products to "encourage" professional users to buy more expensive stuff, not that Microsoft isn't guilty of that itself (to a massive, massive extent). Apple though historically, IMO, didn't do that to the extent they are doing it now, hence my aggravation with them over that particular point.

[bilateralrope]

My only real exposure to macs are the ones in the comp sci labs. I'll list off the problems I have with them:

- Whenever I read files from my USB stick on them, MacOS adds various folders there. I don't know why it does this, nor does anyone I've asked. I don't have this happening with either Windows or Linux, just on these Macs.

My other complaints about MacOS come down to me just not being used to using it. The other problems are with the design of the hardware:

- The keyboard is really flat. As in the keys have less travel than the keys on my laptop. The keys are also flat, instead of the slight curve on all other keyboards I've used. The end result of this is that I make a lot more errors on those keyboards than I do on any other qwerty keyboard I've used.

- The only powered USB ports on it are on the back of the monitor/case Macs have. So to plug in my USB stick I have to turn the monitor around to get access to them. Yes there are USB ports on the keyboard, but they don't have enough power for my USB stick.

- The power button is on the back of the monitor, and right where most people grab the mac when turning it around to access the USB ports. This results in it being pressed by accident far too often.

For me I play a lot of games, meaning windows is really the only option for my home computer.

[phongn]

My only real exposure to macs are the ones in the comp sci labs. I'll list off the problems I have with them:

- Whenever I read files from my USB stick on them, MacOS adds various folders there. I don't know why it does this, nor does anyone I've asked. I don't have this happening with either Windows or Linux, just on these Macs.

OS X stores metadata for the Finder in those files, though newer version of OS X are better at not littering everything with them, IIRC.

[bilateralrope]

My only real exposure to macs are the ones in the comp sci labs. I'll list off the problems I have with them:

- Whenever I read files from my USB stick on them, MacOS adds various folders there. I don't know why it does this, nor does anyone I've asked. I don't have this happening with either Windows or Linux, just on these Macs.

OS X stores metadata for the Finder in those files, though newer version of OS X are better at not littering everything with them, IIRC.

Why does it need to write anything when I am just asking it to read from the USB stick ?

Is there any way I can tell it to generate the data on the fly each time ?

[Praxis]

My only real exposure to macs are the ones in the comp sci labs. I'll list off the problems I have with them:

- Whenever I read files from my USB stick on them, MacOS adds various folders there. I don't know why it does this, nor does anyone I've asked. I don't have this happening with either Windows or Linux, just on these Macs.

OS X stores metadata for the Finder in those files, though newer version of OS X are better at not littering everything with them, IIRC.

Why does it need to write anything when I am just asking it to read from the USB stick ?

Is there any way I can tell it to generate the data on the fly each time ?

There is, but I forget it. It's a slightly annoying Mac/Windows interoperability quirk- every directory the Mac browsers into will have a .DS_Store file. These files are invisible on the Mac but visible on the Windows PC.

[Turin]

One thing Apple has over Linux is tech support. Try calling Hp, Cannon or any other third party hardware vendor and getting support installing one of their printers in linux... then call for OSX support. Also Macs come with techsupport for themselves. I took a brief look on what it would cost to get telephone support from one Linux vendor and it was $240. Dell doesn't offer any telephone support for Linux (and the last time I looked into it, it cost more to get a Dell with Linux than Windows, and that was if you navigated the maze of their website), I'm not sure any of the vendors that do (ASUS might on the eeepc).

I'm not sure that comparing vendor prices for tech support is really an accurate means of measuring this factor, though. I've been running my first Linux setup for about 9 months now -- I installed Ubuntu on a Lenovo Thinkpad -- and I've had nothing but great success when it comes to tech support. That's because I don't have to go to the vendor for tech support. I can go online and find, within a very short period of time, solutions to any problem I've had. It's to the point where now I simply don't have any problems because I fixed them and they stayed fixed. I can't say I ever had that with a PC. Total cost for that tech support: $0.

[Pu-239]

One thing Apple has over Linux is tech support. Try calling Hp, Cannon or any other third party hardware vendor and getting support installing one of their printers in linux... then call for OSX support. Also Macs come with techsupport for themselves. I took a brief look on what it would cost to get telephone support from one Linux vendor and it was $240. Dell doesn't offer any telephone support for Linux (and the last time I looked into it, it cost more to get a Dell with Linux than Windows, and that was if you navigated the maze of their website), I'm not sure any of the vendors that do (ASUS might on the eeepc).

AFAIK, it now costs less to get it w/ Linux than w/ Windows from Dell, if you don't get support.

Still wouldn't buy from Dell due to their shoddy hardware. They don't sell Latitudes w/ Linux, which are the only sufficiently durable Dell laptops.

[discordian_saint]

There is, but I forget it. It's a slightly annoying Mac/Windows interoperability quirk- every directory the Mac browsers into will have a .DS_Store file. These files are invisible on the Mac but visible on the Windows PC.

I have had Ubuntu Linux do something similar with my USB sticks and Windows tends to put a "Recycled" folder on there that I can see in OS X.

[Durandal]

If form is important (say you need nice computers for a front desk or something), go ahead. I just can't stand the types that whine for a Mac just because it is supposedly better... I mean, the whole office is using PCs, and the graphic designers in charge of web graphic design (you know, low weight graphics) won't stop whining because they "need" Macs to do their job.

Most graphics people I know give a good reason for their request for Macs in the workplace. "I work better on it, it has good color reproduction, and having one at the office will make it easier for me to work from home." Believe it or not, graphic artists aren't actually stupid. They know what tools work best for them, and they tend to like the Mac's workflow, especially in Adobe applications, which attempt to emulate the Mac's document handling on Windows (poorly).

Sure, I have to compile on a crappy pentium II, and the company has to expend several grand on your machine? Jeez... Either justify your need, or shut up.

What in hell are you compiling on a Pentium II in the year 2008? Firmware for embedded devices?

[Crayz9000]

Still wouldn't buy from Dell due to their shoddy hardware. They don't sell Latitudes w/ Linux, which are the only sufficiently durable Dell laptops.

Even then... hardly.

I have a Latitude D610 (a fairly recent model) from my job that is now on its third mainboard. The 1st flexed to the point that the lower DIMM slot had loose contacts; the second one caused the laptop to spontaneously reboot then refused to turn on; and the third one did the same thing, prompting them to not only replace the mainboard but the CPU as well.

I'll buy a Dell on my own when they learn to make the whole fucking case, and not just a skimpy little mainboard cage, out of magnesium alloy like IBM/Lenovo's been doing since day one.

Second lesson with Dell laptops, if you have a boss who gets hard-ons when he thinks about Dells and refuses to even consider Lenovo, NEVER EVER buy one with the "Dell Wireless" adapter as an option. Get it with an Intel wireless chipset instead. The reception of the "Dell" chipset (actually a Broadcom) sucks, and on top of that it Broadcom just doesn't get it when it comes to Linux drivers.

[Oskuro]

Believe it or not, graphic artists aren't actually stupid.

I know, I know, the being a bunch of uptight closeminded snobs was completely independent from them being graphic artists. My point was that saying Mac (or PC) is better "just because" is stupid, and these guys justify their need for Macs stating that "no worthwhile designer works on anything but a Mac".

I'm not saying that all that Macs have for them is looks either, just that a lot of people seem to be deceived by the looks of a system instead of looking at the capabilities, and that such an attitude would only be excusable if the system's looks were an actual requirement.

What in hell are you compiling on a Pentium II in the year 2008? Firmware for embedded devices?

Nah, mostly web based stuff, It's a matter of the higher-ups not wanting to spend money to update the computers, wich makes the whining for expensive Macs a bit more irritating, since the rest of the IT crowd has to make do with old systems.

[Lisa]

I'm not sure that comparing vendor prices for tech support is really an accurate means of measuring this factor, though. I've been running my first Linux setup for about 9 months now -- I installed Ubuntu on a Lenovo Thinkpad -- and I've had nothing but great success when it comes to tech support. That's because I don't have to go to the vendor for tech support. I can go online and find, within a very short period of time, solutions to any problem I've had. It's to the point where now I simply don't have any problems because I fixed them and they stayed fixed. I can't say I ever had that with a PC. Total cost for that tech support: $0.

Do you think the average person who can't tell the difference between a web app and an actual application like email is going to be able to hunt down answers on their own? Half these people have problems working the tv remote.

You can also go online and find solutions to Mac or Windows problems just as easy as Linux issues. But if you are not tech savvy self help isn't really an option. A lot of people that call tech support need their hand held to run an installer program... The line "Enter your full name here" confuses a lot of people (I've told people to enter "rumplestitskin" and they have). The sad thing is some of these people are in charge of making decisions that affect other people's lives.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, I've had a 17in Powerbook for three years now, and I can mess around it in the exact same way I can in linux. The only thing that's worn out on it (twice, now) is the keyboard, but that's because I type at 110wpm (yes, on a laptop keyboard) which causes some serious attrition; these days I use a USB keyboard when not moving around. I've babied and hid the thing in the strangest places or left it over at friends' houses tossed in piles of junk when I've had bouts of homelessness or other insecure living situations and she's always worked for me; I've traveled across the country seven times, and the only thing I wish different was that the keyboard was sturdier. They did, at least, cover the last replacement under warranty and this time I think I can get the key cap just replaced on the one key. Due to my financial circumstances, I rather expect it to last a minimum of another three years--there will be no way for me to replace it before then.

Oh, and rough handling. It's been put through more than a few bumps and scrapes on those innumerable trips which would endanger a more fragile computer, without that beautiful aluminium case.

[Durandal]

I know, I know, the being a bunch of uptight closeminded snobs was completely independent from them being graphic artists. My point was that saying Mac (or PC) is better "just because" is stupid, and these guys justify their need for Macs stating that "no worthwhile designer works on anything but a Mac".

I'm not saying that all that Macs have for them is looks either, just that a lot of people seem to be deceived by the looks of a system instead of looking at the capabilities, and that such an attitude would only be excusable if the system's looks were an actual requirement.

Looks can be a requirement when buying a car. Why can't they be requirements for buying a computer? Because a bunch of uptight, close-minded snobs say so?

Look, there are snobbish, annoying and completely clueless Mac users out there. I won't deny it. I've had to deal with them, and it's annoying. There are people who still think that Macs are better because they use RISC processors (not true and not true), for example. But then there are just as many (if not more) IT people who are just as snobbish about Windows or Linux in the office. The types who say shit like "Macs toy computers" and "The only reason anyone gets Macs is because they're pretty". So there are snobs on both sides. But I don't bring up the Windows and Linux snobs in a debate about the merits of each platform. Know why? Because it has no relevance.

And I'm not the only one who appears to be able to show this kind of restraint. Peter Bright at ArsTechnica recently posted an article about how broken Win32 is and what Apple did right with Mac OS X's development environment. And he didn't mention how snobbish Mac users are. He didn't mention the "Get a Mac" ads. He didn't mention that graphic designers are so god damn annoying because they ask for Macs in business. Because none of that matters.

So if you've used a Mac and have some sort of intelligent critique of the UI or how the overall machine works compared to a Windows box, please present it. Otherwise, you've really got nothing to contribute.

[Oskuro]

Looks can be a requirement when buying a car. Why can't they be requirements for buying a computer? Because a bunch of uptight, close-minded snobs say so?

Sorry, I wasn't talking about personal users, I was refering to the use of Mac in professional environments, where the user's taste shouldn't mean squat, as only the function matters.

A personal user can do as it pleases, and I agree that there are enough Windows or Linux snobs out there, both in the individual and professional arena, for that reason I tried to make my post a bit more generic, as I'm not actually bashing on the Mac, but on people (like the character Brent from the PVP comic I linked) who think of the Mac/Windows/Linux as a symbol of status or something, specially at work (like those graphic designers from my office).

So if you've used a Mac and have some sort of intelligent critique of the UI or how the overall machine works compared to a Windows box, please present it. Otherwise, you've really got nothing to contribute.

It's been a long time since I used a Mac, and it was a superficial use at best (of an iMac), so my apologies for my lack of contribution, I was more interested in talking about how users react to these things, my apologies if it seemed like I was trying to critique the actual capabilities of the Mac.