Hamas Offers Peace --of sorts -- to Israel

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Hamas Offers Peace --of sorts -- to Israel

Post by Coyote »

Would you like to know MORE?

MSNBC

Under the conditions of the IvP moratorium, we are allowed to bring up information if it offers a new dynamic on the situation-- I believe this qualifies. However, if it does not, please lock with my apologies.
Hamas offers truce in return for 1967 borders
No Israeli response, but U.S. rejects it as 'no change'

Bassem Tellawi / AP
Hamas political leader Khaled Mashaal talks to reporters at a news conference Monday in Damascus, Syria, where he offered Israel a truce.

updated 2 hours, 58 minutes ago
DAMASCUS, Syria - The leader of Hamas said Monday that his Palestinian militant group would offer Israel a 10-year "hudna," or truce, as implicit proof of recognition of Israel if it withdrew from all lands it seized in the 1967 Middle East War.

Khaled Mashaal told The Associated Press that he made the offer to former U.S. President Jimmy Carter in talks on Saturday. "We have offered a truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders, a truce of 10 years as a proof of recognition," Mashaal said.

In his comments Monday, Mashaal used the Arabic word "hudna," meaning truce, which is more concrete than "tahdiya" — a period of calm — which Hamas often uses to describe a simple cease-fire.


"Hudna" implies a recognition of the other party's existence.

The problem here is that "hudna" also is a specific term used to denote a pause in fighting so that resources can be marshaled for the exected reneweal of hostilities; it was the term used by Mohammed when he and his followers were unable to successfully attack the Quraysh tribe in Mecca and drive them out. He offered a "hudna" with the intent of resuming conflict later.

However-- it is still worth considering, expanded on at the end of the post.

Mashaal said Hamas would accept a Palestinian state limited to the lands Israel seized in 1967 — that is, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem. But he said the group would never outright formally recognize Israel.

Carter comments
Earlier, Carter said that Hamas is prepared to accept the right of Israel to “live as a neighbor next door in peace.”

Carter said the group promised it wouldn’t undermine Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ efforts to reach a peace deal with Israel, as long as the Palestinian people approved it in a referendum.

In the past, Hamas officials have said they would establish a “peace in stages” if Israel were to withdraw to the borders it held before 1967. But it has been evasive about how it sees the final borders of a Palestinian state and has not abandoned its official call for Israel’s destruction.

There was no immediate reaction from Israel to Hamas' truce offer.

Israel, which evacuated Gaza in 2005, has accepted the idea of a Palestinian state there and in much of the West Bank. But it has resisted Palestinian demands that it return to its 1967 frontiers.

In Washington, the State Department dismissed Carter’s assessment of his meetings, saying there was no indication Hamas wanted peace with Israel.

“What is clear to us is that there certainly is no change in Hamas’ position,” said deputy spokesman Tom Casey. “It does not recognize Israel’s right to exist, it has not eschewed or walked away from terrorism and violence, nor has it said it will honor any of the previous agreements that have been made with the Israeli government.”

Carter’s comments came after his much criticized meetings with the top Hamas leaders in Syria in last week.

Over the weekend, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he decided not to meet with Carter in Israel because he does not wish to be seen as participating in any negotiations with Hamas.

Carter also urged Israel to engage in direct negotiations with the Islamic militant group, saying it was a “problem” that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with Hamas. Both governments consider it a terrorist organization.

'Problem' with Israel, U.S., Carter says
“The problem is not that I met with Hamas in Syria,” he said. “The problem is that Israel and the United States refuse to meet with someone who must be involved.”

“There’s no doubt that both the Arab world and Hamas will accept Israel’s right to exist in peace within 1967 borders,” he said.

In his comments Monday, Carter said Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking has “regressed” since a U.S.-hosted Mideast conference in Annapolis, Md., in November.


Israel has been negotiating directly with Abbas, who heads a moderate government based in the West Bank. Abbas lost control of the Gaza Strip last June, when Hamas violently seized control of that territory.

Carter said Hamas has promised to let a captured Israeli soldier send a letter to his parents, and said the militants “made clear to us that they would accept an interim cease-fire in the Gaza Strip.”

However, Carter said Hamas rejected his specific proposal for a monthlong unilateral cease-fire.
While on the surface, the offer seems kind of pointless-- emotion aside, what Hamas asks for is complete withdrawal to the 1967 boundaries in exchange for only 10 years of peace. A dicey prospect. As long as Israel has the West Bank, they have something to negotiate with and give away. Let's face it, this isn't enough for Israel, because not only will they give away everything and then pick up combat again in 10 years, but we alrady know that the Settlers won't leave their enclaves, and it is presumed that Hamas wants the West Bank in toto.

What makes this worth note, however, is that it does, open up the possibility of Hamas recognition of Israel as an entity, which is an important building block.
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Post by Darth Wong »

What the Palestinians need is a powerful strongman dictator. Any group that negotiated with Israel would only spark an internal schism, followed by the creation of other groups which would continue hostilities.
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Post by Elfdart »

If anything, Israel could use a Good Bad Man, too. If Israel had someone like DeGaulle in charge, they could simply tell the squatters:

"You have 90 days to pack up and move -after those 90 days are up, we are closing the border. You can stay, but the IDF will not send a single soldier, tank, plane or artillery shell to help you if you do. You are on your own. Hope you like Palestinian citizenship."

And mean it. Of course the right-wing French didn't use God as an excuse to dump the dregs of France into North Africa and to get French troops killed keeping them there.
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Post by Kanastrous »

OMFG Israel as-run-by-the-French.

I don't even want to *think* about it.
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Post by Havok »

I was following this on CNN today and while the Hamas leader said he DID NOT offer to recognize Israel, even though Carter said he did, a few commentators said that this was not explicitly a contradiction and that Israel could be recognized but not necessarily in an official capacity.

It's an interesting proposal and 10 years of peace, while not a guarantee that it will continue, is a damn good start for this problem. Who knows, maybe, if the peace lasts for a decade, neither side will want to go back to the way it has been.
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Re: Hamas Offers Peace --of sorts -- to Israel

Post by eyl »

Coyote wrote:but we alrady know that the Settlers won't leave their enclaves, and it is presumed that Hamas wants the West Bank in toto
.

You mean like the settlers in the Sinai and Gaza stayed there?

Israel will move them out, if the benefits are worth the political price. A 10-year truce in return for a state - which a Gazan Hamas official characterized as "transitional" - is worth neither the price nor the risk.
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Post by The Spartan »

Supposing this goes through with Israel and Hamas honoring their words, what happens if (perhaps I should say when) a splinter group or a different group not directly associated with Hamas decides the struggle must continue and launches attacks against Israelis or kidnaps a soldier, what have you?

Does Hamas police it's territory (it is the majority of the Palestinian government afterall) or does Israel go berserk and launch an "excursion" that ultimately causes Hamas to declare the truce null and void?

I could maybe see this working but for those nutjobs that just don't want to quit.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

The way I see it, there are a lot of possible outcomes here even assuming -somehow- both sides get it to happen, the Palistinians unify, all that stuff. So I'll just throw out some possibilities.

Possibility one. Some radical group (most probably on the Palestinian, but possibly on the Israeli side) gets board or whatever, deciding to 'fight on for full freedom' or some crap and stirs everything back up. Things rapidly spiral back and soon everything goes to hell.

Possibility two. The Palestinians fall apart into infighting between Fatta, Hamass and other factions both for and against the peace, which in turn brings Israel into it to protect its interests and soon everything goes to hell.

Possibility three. The Israeli Government falls soon after the perceived 'betryal' and a hardline right wing group gains enough support from very unhappy people in Israel who want 'their' land back, and everything goes to hell.

Both sides respect the truce, but conditions don't really change and no real progress is made to try and form a real, viable Palestinian state, mostly because the other Arab nations who profess their undying support of the Palestinian people do little more then look at the ground and shuffle when asked to put their money where their mouths are and actually do something useful, like heavily invest. With nothing really left to loose, the generation who were born and grew up in the Interfada period say 'fuck this' and launch a new uprising, having spent the time to arm and train people to a far higher quality then we saw today, and everything goes to hell.

The only real possible 'good' outcome I can see is if somehow, the two sides get this 1967 reversal done relatively easily, then the rest of the world -and moderate Arab nations- pour money and resources into this new state, which somehow gets rid of the corrupt higher ups and fundies, perhaps with some type of grassroots peoples revolt against Hamas and Fattah, with widescale defections from their supporters, everyone just SICK of the empty words and misery. Then with the resources coming in, with jobs and an economy coming back, with less Hellfire missiles crashing into people, the new state actually stabilizes enough that when the truce ends, none of them want to go back to war or anything.

Which is probably, sadly, the most unlikely outcome...especially if you look at where the world may be in 10 years, with issues like Climate Change, Peak Oil, economic hardships of the Western world, the Middle East, especially the Palestinian state, might just get utterly ignored.
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Post by Coyote »

The problem with the Ehud Barack/Yasser Arafat Camp David meeting was that it, too, talked about a Israeli pullout from the West Bank but it was "Swiss-cheesed" with Israeli access roads and colonies. This proposal sounds like it would be a full pullout, and the Settlers can choose which side of the border they want to stay on.

The thing is, if this were to happen (although I feel that there are too many hawks and loons on each side to expect much) then potentially the Saudi offer of the 2001 Arab Summit could be included-- where the Arab governments agreed to peace with Israel, cessation of the official state of war, and recognition of the state of Israel so long as they can come to a peace agreement with the Palestinias that the Palestinians accept.
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So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Post by Kanastrous »

The enduring pattern of behavior from both sides seems to guarantee that virtually any individual who doesn't like the direction of negotiations can stage a minor atrocity with the reasonable expectation that their personal actions can derail everything.
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Post by Coyote »

Kanastrous wrote:The enduring pattern of behavior from both sides seems to guarantee that virtually any individual who doesn't like the direction of negotiations can stage a minor atrocity with the reasonable expectation that their personal actions can derail everything.
Aba Eban, an Israeli negotiator, once said that "the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", but the sad truth is the Israeli hawks also shoot themselves in the foot, too. Their utter unwillingness to negotiate with the Arabs at all cost them the Sinai-- there was an offer made by the Egyptians at one point that asked for a 30-mile buffer zone along the western border of the Sinai Pennisula so the Egyptians could re-open the Suez Canal for shipping. In exchange, they offered a paece treaty. Israeli hard-liners shot the idea down-- the usual reasons: give 'em an inch now they'll try to take a mile later, etc.

If Israel had agreed, they would have the whole Sinai to this day. But their refusal to be flexible resulted in a more difficult treaty later, at Camp David, which included giving up the whole of the Sinai.

That's the problem with playing hardball. Sometimes the ball bounces back and smacks the fuck outta your own head.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by CJvR »

Any deal with Hamas that doesn't include recognition, right to exist and clearly defined borders is likely to be a Bosnian truce.
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Re: Hamas Offers Peace --of sorts -- to Israel

Post by Ace Pace »

eyl wrote:
Coyote wrote:but we alrady know that the Settlers won't leave their enclaves, and it is presumed that Hamas wants the West Bank in toto
.

You mean like the settlers in the Sinai and Gaza stayed there?


Evacuating Efrat, with over 10,000 people and some serious buildings is not equivilent to Gaza or Sinai. :?
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Re: Hamas Offers Peace --of sorts -- to Israel

Post by eyl »

Ace Pace wrote:Evacuating Efrat, with over 10,000 people and some serious buildings is not equivilent to Gaza or Sinai. :?
Yamit alone had over a quarter of that population.

I'm not saying evacuating the West Bank won't be harder, mind you - but it can be done.
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Post by RIPP_n_WIPE »

Chris OFarrell wrote:The way I see it, there are a lot of possible outcomes here even assuming -somehow- both sides get it to happen, the Palistinians unify, all that stuff. So I'll just throw out some possibilities.

Possibility one. Some radical group (most probably on the Palestinian, but possibly on the Israeli side) gets board or whatever, deciding to 'fight on for full freedom' or some crap and stirs everything back up. Things rapidly spiral back and soon everything goes to hell.

Possibility two. The Palestinians fall apart into infighting between Fatta, Hamass and other factions both for and against the peace, which in turn brings Israel into it to protect its interests and soon everything goes to hell.

Possibility three. The Israeli Government falls soon after the perceived 'betryal' and a hardline right wing group gains enough support from very unhappy people in Israel who want 'their' land back, and everything goes to hell.
As long as both sides work to a solution any of those situations, save number two, could be worked out. A rogue attack could easily be smoothed over by a joint Israeli, Palestinian attack on the group. Number three could be arbitrated by outside forces and would be shitty for Israel and Israel alone. If the Palestinian state were to become valid, get embassies, form alliances, etc, Israel would be a in a cluster fuck of a time trying to say any invasion was legel.

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