NATO lessons in Georgia

[K. A. Pital]

The Russian BBC service is increasingly showing me it's worth by reporting stuff that is left out even from our own media - despite how Russian media really likes to pick on Georgia - not to mention the international ones

Georgia and NATO: new textbook for high-grade students

Graduating students in Tbilisi school - many school children think Georgia has many reasons to be angered at Russia

While Georgia's politicians try to put their country into the NATO MAP, a new lesson is put as a facultative in Georgial schools - "NATO lesson"

And next year, a textbook for out-of-class reading will arrive, which, as it is claimed, will help the graduates to better understand the issues of integrating Georgia into NATO.

More than that, the politically inclined students and school kids are participating in the "Aliante-2008" competition which will run it's final in Prague this summer.

What if it's war?

"Before taking part in this competition we knew nothing of NATO. Now, after the first tour, we know a lot and will know even more. And this is very good" - tells Tamuna Gurgenidze of the 1st Tbilisi Gymnasium

Prior to that the NATO abbreviation, very similar to a georgian name Nato, could have confused her.

Even today she still speaks NatO, after passing into the second tour.

Textbooks

New textbooks will help school kids to understand Georgia-NATO relationships.

Another competition participant Sofiko Tatarashvili from the 67th Tbilisi school thinks accentuation is not important, only what NATO means is.

"I think Russia threatens us, because if we want to return Abkhazia and South Ossetia, we will go to war and we won't be able to take them on by ourselves, since their army is there" - she says.

Russia grievances


The competition participants, which is run under the NATO Information Center in Georgia and the organization "New Generation - New Initiative", won't need the new textbook called "NATO and Georgia's security" which is a joint NATO-Georgia product.

Those who will win the trip to Prague, up to 12 people, will have to know much more than their counterparts, which will take up the textbook in September.

Usual high-graders know little about the NATO, and don't have much interest in the theme.

The 64th Tbilisi school has 3 sectors: Russian, Georgian and Azerbaijani. The Georgian sector schoolmates are more interested in NATO and Russia grievances.

"I know we have to enter NATO to protect us... from the Soviet Union. Two years ago they switched off our gas. We were cold for a whole month. Russia forbade selling "Borjomi" and georgian wine. Deported our people from Russia, stopped plane traffic. Threw a missile near Gori" - that's the grievances the graduates could list.

"Let's be friends"

But there are some still, who believe in the old Georgian proverb "A neighbor is closer than a relative"

."I think entering NATO is not necessary. Russia is our neighbor and we should be friends. If we enter NATO finally, we will lose Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and everything wil be even worse" - says Nino.
[just a note for information: Abkhazia controls 60-70% of Georgian electricity supply from Inguri HEPS, and Russia provides around 5-10% - SB]

"Let there be visas for us, let us be friends and travel to Moscow" - agrees Arthur.

Kids from Azerbajani and Russian sector aren't keen to discuss the theme.

"Do we really need to know it all? It's too early. Kids are off-politics" - says Sofia. Georgi doesn't know too much about the question too, and prefers listening to music to getting into political mess.

Fenya knows something about Georgia getting into NATO, but why Russia blocks it, doesn't know.

Some of the respondents were transferred to the Russian sector out of the former Group of Russian Forces in the Caucasus, which stopped functioning after Georgia closed down Russian military bases. Upon knowing the topic of the interview, the boys declined to discuss it.

[Sidewinder]

Sounds like the American propaganda experts are doing a MUCH better job than the Russian ones. Maybe Putin & Co. can work out a deal, e.g., tell the Georgian president, "Stop kissing Bush's ass, stop trying to join NATO, and we'll cut off all support for the Abkhazian and Ossetian separtists, sign a free trade agreement, and offer you oil at a reduced rate."

[Vympel]

I don't think Russia should be terribly worried about the possibility of Georgia joining NATO. The day Germany and France sign an alliance to go to war with Russia over South Ossetia is the day a paper cat successfully evades an asbestos dog in hell.

[Kane Starkiller]

Russian threats of supporting Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence are void since they have been doing that since the early 90s and these republics have been de facto independent ever since and they won't be coming back no matter what Georgia does.
As for oil and gas Georgia would have direct access to Central Asian sources if alternative pipelines are built which is why Russians are pissed. They want to keep the monopoly on Central Asian oil.

[Vympel]

Russian threats of supporting Abkhazian and South Ossetian independence are void since they have been doing that since the early 90s and these republics have been de facto independent ever since and they won't be coming back no matter what Georgia does.

Russia has taken various additional steps since Kosovo's "declaration" of independence in that regard. There are levels of support.

[Kane Starkiller]

Yes but Russian level of support has always been just a step below formal recognition. They provided direct military support to the breakaway republics meaning Russians wanted those republics independent long before issue of Kosovo or NATO expansion ever arose. The question is does Georgian government think there is actually any chance of returning these republics. I can't think of any independence movement that succeeded through military action only to be reversed through negotiations alone and I doubt Georgians are delusional enough to think they'll get them back by force.

So if Georgia doesn't enter NATO status quo remains which means de facto independence of the breakaway republics and ultimately their legal recognition somewhere down the line. Time is against them and sooner they enter NATO more of a chance they have to do anything about the breakaway republics which will probably amount to nothing in the end.

[K. A. Pital]

I doubt Georgians are delusional enough to think they'll get them back by force.

I hope so. But it's not a given. You probably know Abkhazia operates a gigantic Soviet hydro-powerplant which supplies most of Georgia's electricity; since the war Georgia has been dark like batmans cape, and all because of the loss of this 1,6 GW capable plant. In fact Georgia currently need 1,7 GW but have only 1 GW or something, also buying 250MW from Russia.

They do have reasons to fight over Abkhazia, it seems.

[Vympel]

Link

Russia 'shot down Georgia drone'

A Russian fighter jet has shot down an unmanned reconnaissance aircraft over Georgia, Georgian authorities say.

Georgia's defence ministry told the BBC it had video footage showing a Russian MiG-29 aircraft shooting down the unarmed Georgian drone on Sunday.

A spokesman for Russia's air force told Reuters the claim was "nonsense".

Tensions are high between the two neighbours over Russian support for breakaway Georgian regions, and Georgian moves towards joining Nato.

The Georgian air force told Reuters news agency the video footage showed a Russian jet launching a missile at the Georgian plane as it flew over the breakaway Abkhazia region.

"It's absolutely illegal for a Russian MiG-29 to be there," Col David Nairashvili, the air force commander, told Reuters.

Last week, Georgia accused Russia of trying to annex the breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by deciding to seek closer ties with them.

Russia has said the plan is aimed at protecting the rights and legal interests of Russian citizens, who make up the majority of the population in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Russian and UN peacekeepers have been deployed in the two republics since the early 1990s, when violence broke out as both regions tried to break free from Georgian control.

Earlier this month, Nato decided not to grant Georgia's request to join its Membership Action Plan but promised it would eventually become a member of the alliance.

Smells like BS. It'd be cool to see it shot down though. Bring on the video.

[K. A. Pital]

We shot down a drone over Abkhazia? Big deal.

It's funny that we "deny" it now because sometime ago we admitted shooting a few drones down. Georgia was denying that it launched them back in those days

[[R_H]]

Russia 'shot down Georgia drone'

A Russian fighter jet has shot down an unmanned reconnaissance aircraft over Georgia, Georgian authorities say.

Georgia's defence ministry told the BBC it had video footage showing a Russian MiG-29 aircraft shooting down the unarmed Georgian drone on Sunday.

A spokesman for Russia's air force told Reuters the claim was "nonsense".

Tensions are high between the two neighbours over Russian support for breakaway Georgian regions, and Georgian moves towards joining Nato.

The Georgian air force told Reuters news agency the video footage showed a Russian jet launching a missile at the Georgian plane as it flew over the breakaway Abkhazia region.

"It's absolutely illegal for a Russian MiG-29 to be there," Col David Nairashvili, the air force commander, told Reuters.

Last week, Georgia accused Russia of trying to annex the breakaway republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia by deciding to seek closer ties with them.

Russia has said the plan is aimed at protecting the rights and legal interests of Russian citizens, who make up the majority of the population in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Russian and UN peacekeepers have been deployed in the two republics since the early 1990s, when violence broke out as both regions tried to break free from Georgian control.

Earlier this month, Nato decided not to grant Georgia's request to join its Membership Action Plan but promised it would eventually become a member of the alliance.

Adding fuel to the fire.

[Kane Starkiller]

Holy shit they already shot down the second one???

[Sidewinder]

A quick look at Wikipedia's article on the Georgian military made no mention of it having UAVs, which begs the question, if Russia DID shoot down a Georgian UAV, where the hell did Georgia GET the UAV in the first place? Aa leftover from the Soviet era? (I doubt it.) From the US, which begs the question, what the fuck was a US military and/or intelligence unit doing there? (Someone has to operate the UAV, and if it was stamped, "Made in USA," someone in the US would definitely know where, when, and how it was used.)

[K. A. Pital]

Georgian AF buys UAV drones from Israel to fly over Abkhazian territory. These are Israeli drones, bought either directly from Israel or from Turkey and operated by Georgian intelligence guys, IIRC.

[cosmicalstorm]

That video was awesome. You dont see a missile come flying in your'e face like that every day.

[Mange]

We shot down a drone over Abkhazia? Big deal.

Well, what could entering foreign airspace, in this case Georgia, and the use of force against aircraft belonging to said nation constitute?

[K. A. Pital]

Well, what could entering foreign airspace, in this case Georgia, and the use of force against aircraft belonging to said nation constitute?

Abkhazia has a freaking airforce of it's own, with purported Mig-21, Su-25, L-39 and Yak-52, as well as 2 Mi-8.

We (I refer to Abkhazia as we because it's airforce is supplied and serviced by Russia, else it would be gone by now) did that several times before; but Georgia denied the drone overflights. Now the choose to make a big fuss over it. Abkhazia is de-facto independent and it has proclaimed itself such; it is full of people with Russian passports for god's sake, that's like a 52nd US state. Abkhazia claimed to shoot one down in March; Georgia vehemently denied it, but now they're up in arms?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

If I recall correctly, Georgia practically declared anyone holding a Russian passport an enemy of the state... which would make the break away regions...

[Pu-239]

Link to video if others haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpABtIKERg

[Pu-239]

Ah, nevermind, BBC article above had it too.
I wonder why the aircraft's cannon wasn't used to shoot it down?

[Vympel]

I imagine because missiles make great television.

I bet an R-60 (AA-8 APHID) was used for that. It'd be a waste of an R-73. The R-60 is little more than a guided cannon round anyway, given the size of it's explosive.

Cool video too. I have no idea what kind of drone that was, but watching the MiG-29 come into frame was kickass.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, it was fun... he was narrating about teh drone and then boom, the drone was owned by a missile in the face

[Phantasee]

Ah, nevermind, BBC article above had it too.
I wonder why the aircraft's cannon wasn't used to shoot it down?

I don't think they're too concerned about wasting missiles when they hardly have any other targets to use them on.

And maybe they figured it would make it onto some sort of sweet highlight reel?

[Chris OFarrell]

I imagine because missiles make great television.

I bet an R-60 (AA-8 APHID) was used for that. It'd be a waste of an R-73. The R-60 is little more than a guided cannon round anyway, given the size of it's explosive.

I doubt they took the time to specifically load an old missile to shoot down a UAV. More likely it was an air defense fighter scrambled to intercept and I'd expect it to have modern ordinance as a matter of course.

Very cool video though. I wonder how the UAV knew the Mig was coming, the Camera was very clearly looking in the direction of the Mig and zoomed in on its vector. The UAV sure as hell isn't going to be mounting a radar. And if the Georgians had them both in radar coverage, it couldn't have been that far in Abkhazia .

[Vympel]

I doubt they took the time to specifically load an old missile to shoot down a UAV. More likely it was an air defense fighter scrambled to intercept and I'd expect it to have modern ordinance as a matter of course.

The R-60 (more specifically, R-60M) isn't really "old" in comparison to the R-73. It's just a less capable missile that was long deployed on various Soviet combat aircraft as a self-defense weapon, in tandem with the R-73s deployment on their front line fighters. The MiG-29 can and does carry the R-60 on sorties, though primary armament is usually 2x R-27 and 4x R-73.

Consider also that Georgia's air force is worth precisely fuck all, and it's not a given that they'd hang R-73s off the rails every time they flew.

Very cool video though. I wonder how the UAV knew the Mig was coming, the Camera was very clearly looking in the direction of the Mig and zoomed in on its vector. The UAV sure as hell isn't going to be mounting a radar. And if the Georgians had them both in radar coverage, it couldn't have been that far in Abkhazia .

It was over water - probably the Black Sea? Anyway Abkhazia is small, radar coverage shouldn't be too difficult. Would be knocked out on the first day of a war by a Kh-58U/ Kh-31P strike ...

[K. A. Pital]

I doubt they took the time to specifically load an old missile to shoot down a UAV.

According to Abkhazia, around 4 Hermes drones have been shot down already in total over the years, so the pilots might be somewhat used to "shoot UAV" procedure already