SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread?

[Setzer]

That is true. If he wants a huge airforce, he'd need to orient his entire bugdet to it and quickly place orders for jets for the next year.

I seem to have misunderstood a few things. I thought we were basing things more on your budget then your country size. The numbers did seem kind of arbitrary. A Principality has two jets, and a Kingdom 150? I checked Wikipedia for what some countries had on a similar budget. That's what I was basing my OOB off of.

Anyway, I'll be making an ingame post that will hopefully clarify matters.
Would it be acceptable if the airplanes had been purchased, but I have to use in game time to make them flyable and to train pilots? They're still unavailable for a while, so it's not like I'm just pulling them out of my ass.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, OP rules are to be followed, but you can expand your AF later accordingly. If you procured planes from someone, well within your budget, that is fine. Even some Duchies do it.

The gist is, a Principality does not have it's own developed arms industry, so it has to rely on someone supplying craft, chassis, etc.

~~~ As a side note, Duchy of Langley will get it's aircraft pack by year's end, with the first trainers arriving in a few months. Kudos for choosing the Red Technocracy as your supplier, and thank you in the name of greater peace and security! ~~~

~~~ Remember, there always are price discounts for inter-OMSK arms trade! ~~~

EDIT: one more thing folks, could people keep an up-to-date roster of satellites being in orbit now? Kinad like sme Earth tracking authority for long-time used spacecraft.

EDIT 2: I don't understand the source of conflict: I presume all LEO SATS are launched in compliance with space rules (i.e. inspected by personnel of and, if a nation lacks own space infrastructure, launched from the Atlantics N.S.C.?)

Of course, if you just beam up LEOSATs frm your facilities not consulting anyone and not inspected by Atlantis N.S.C., these sats will be shot down. Remember it.

[PeZook]

Shepnukistani-ordered FCS "Highly Enriched Uranium" being launched at the National Shipyards, Shadow Republic

Goddamn it, when did my people kill me and transform my empire into a republic?

Uh...sorry? I'll fix it

[K. A. Pital]

Extradiction of citizens is a serious issue. Perhaps you could question them over here?

We'd be fully cooperative obviously. But the fact that he works in Aerospace, which is a critical industry, makes it all the more important he doesn't leave the Red Technocracy unless fully convicted and just shipped to a prison of choice.

Seriously, that's a serious question in international relations and now I do understand why.

[PeZook]

Extradiction of citizens is a serious issue. Perhaps you could question them over here?

We'd be fully cooperative obviously. But the fact that he works in Aerospace, which is a critical industry, makes it all the more important he doesn't leave the Red Technocracy unless fully convicted and just shipped to a prison of choice.

Seriously, that's a serious question in international relations and now I do understand why.

1) He's studying aerospace in the hope of being granted RT citizenship under the SIA.

2) Of course, we didn't ask for extradiction, just that he be "made available" for questioning

3) Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

Heh, heh...we didn't have such a plotline, so I thought I'd introduce one

[K. A. Pital]

He's studying aerospace

You probably know that the Institutes and Universities which have a distinct aerospace engineering course, at least in Russia, are the ones which also have classified information access for students which means we'll check the guy. If he's clean, he's good to go.

[Redleader34]

To all large powers: How much would it cost to purchase a nuclear reactor, with full international observers, of course, for power generation. I am looking into upgrading to Nuclear Energy, to help my new island's needs. I would also send a small division of students to learn nuclear technology from the local power(s) universities. Of course, I would accept observers, because I do not want to become a rouge nuclear state.

[phongn]

A large Generation III+ plant (AP1000, EPR) should cost ~$1-1.5/W or so and take 3-5 years to construct.

[K. A. Pital]

Depends on what you want to buy.

I can offer you: VVER-1000 reactors (capital construction costs of the plant buildings - 0,5 to 2,5 billion depending on powerplant size will be on your shoulders). Each VVER-1000 will cost around 1 billion. Reactor barebone could be sold to you for 1 billion (internal price: 850 million, for OMSK dudes). Installation of the reactor into the plant will cost you another billion, depending on whom you contract to install it: your own folks or mine.

Terms: around 2 years.

Else, as a smaller solution, I could offer you the 3-4 year taking, but only at $250 million apiece - 70MW small floating atomic power statio!

P.S. The Jet Train proposal: I need good rail (tolerance of speeds upwards of 350 kph). Really good rail. What I want to test is a 350 kph capable wagon, with jet engines. If that succeeds, it will be used more massively for fast communication runs in the Red Technocracy, because our Omsk-Korolev Maglev line is really, really expensive to maintain, especially as fuel prices are low.

The Maglev is a pointless tourist attraction and a financial black hole in such conditions, offering little competitive advantages with short runs. This means it will be used for tourists to compensate some of the cost, but there would be an additional rail line which will run jet trains that will use obsolete Jet Engines, a compromise between faster communication and cheapness.

[Beowulf]

Beowulf

In actuality, the median income is closer to US$500/year(about 10,000 rubles/year) apparently, not US$10,000/year.

WHAT? Beowulf, I'm living in Russia. US $500 a year? It's about US 350-500 a month, sure, but nowhere close to US $500 a year. Per year, we get around $4-8K depending on the sector, region, etc. Aviation production plants have to pay huge sums of money due to many plants' not operating at full capacity, like in Soviet times. And the GNP/c in my country the RT, is around $25K, but since most of it comes via subsidies, et cetera, run through the state sector, I can actually dump prices.

Hehehe. Now, time to deal the final blow.

Hmm... must have misread my source as being per year instead of per month. Still, point stands. It's manpower is cheaper in Russia, so that makes everything cheaper, by a factor of 5-11x.

The 777 is built to western standards of passenger comfort. Amongst other things, we include overhead bins to fit the carry-on luggage of passengers.

Overhead bins are common in Russian planes What's so surprising about that?
Interior, Il-96: >>
Interior, 777: >>

Look at those LCD panels. Comfort! They alone must be jacking up the cost of the plane as mad

Thanks for proving my point. The 777 has twice as many overhead bins compared to the Il-96. It's going to come to the bins being full a lot sooner than with the 777.

Buy MESS! We don't consider people to be targets merely due to accidents of location of birth.

Tell that to Lonestar

Eh? Shep's the one advocating the indiscriminate use of weapons on Libertia.

And we don't low ball our prices to get your business, only to jack it up later in cost over-runs!

Hehe. This is capitalism, Beowulf. I price-dump, I get the deals, I crush the opponents and rise as a prominent hardware trader.

You can buy quality, or you can buy cheap Soviet crap. Your choice, Fingolfin.

[K. A. Pital]

Hmm... must have misread my source as being per year instead of per month. Still, point stands. It's manpower is cheaper in Russia, so that makes everything cheaper, by a factor of 5-11x.

Tell me Beowulf, how the hell does that figure? A salary of an airplant/engine plant worker never falls below 15-20Kr, meaning 650-870 USD per month and 7800-10440 USD/year. That's a 5,8-4,3 factor in labour force, but how the hell is that the main contributing cost to the airplant production?

Shep's the one advocating the indiscriminate use of weapons on Libertia.

I didn't see Shep actually use weapons in Libertia indiscriminately. Neither do I see any laws of war in this world except the ones we have drafted and accepted at the 1st GC.

You can buy quality, or you can buy cheap Soviet crap

I hear someone whining.

The USSR's aviation engineering is more than fine, in a world where oil is plenty, and with modernization those engines have a similar SFC to Pratt and Whitney or RR Trent engines. The GE-90 is a very specific engine, but it's offensive cost is not compensated by lower fuel consumption, under cheaper oil prices. Pratt and Whitney, making higher SFC engines, managed to get 50% of the 22-30 ton thrust engine market, while the GE-90 family is only serving a few Boeign lines - the same taht are also served by competing engines.

Way to go, but oversophisticated, expensive crap is why Germans lost the war. Cheap, cost-effective, exactly what a small nation needs.

Not to mention all OMSK nations are near and most use similar equipment; serviceability is improved, as opposed to calling GE plants and Boeing plants in Tian Xia, then dragging the shit over half a continent.

[Beowulf]

What, you think aircraft works get paid median? They're typically above that. And it's not just cost of the aircraft workers, it costs all the way down the chain (steel workers, coal miners, etc.).

Shep may not have actually used weapons on Libertia, but he has publicly advocated for doing so in game. It may not be illegal, but it's certainly immoral.

What, you think I'm only selling GE90s on 777s? There's also PW4077s available. I've noticed you haven't attempted to rebut the argument on maintenance hours/flight hour. And generally speaking, an airline will have it's own warehouse full of parts, as part of it's maintenance shop. Sure, the parts may be shipped across half a continent, but we ship parts across half a globe today.

And really, neither the 777 or the Il-96 are useful for a startup airline. Really he should be getting planes in the 737 or 767 class. Maybe even regional airliner class.

Last item: Tian Xia is not selling the planes, or any other equipment. The manufacturers are. In the case of airliners, it's Douglas Aircraft Corp.

[K. A. Pital]

And it's not just cost of the aircraft workers, it costs all the way down the chain (steel workers, coal miners, etc.).

If the cost of imput materials is not approaching world level prices for the producer company, which kinda is the situation - and which is what largely kills many aviaplants despite cheap labour. Indicating labour isn't the main issue here.

Besides, I run a largely command economy with only half of US GDP PC, so I can press for lower labour costs if I need to.

And seriously, the PS-90 costs less because it's a far smaller, less powerful engine than what you sell. Quadjets did exist in the 90s with Boeing's main competitor capturing 50% of the market. And it made quadjets. And it still does. Especially for widebody aircraft.

It may not be illegal, but it's certainly immoral.

Shep also sold Tithonus chemical agents early in the game, and I actually granted Tithonus asylum. We're booeye bad and mean, aren't we.

And generally speaking, an airline will have it's own warehouse full of parts, as part of it's maintenance shop.

Which again speaks in my favour, since cheaper engines really cut the spending here.

Really he should be getting planes in the 737 or 767 class.

He'll get less of widebody jets, but over a course of a few years.

So far I secured, formally, informally or otherwise, the following bids:

Byzantium:

- 6 An-22P Gunships (no open tender)
- 12 An-22(A) (no open tender)
- 6 An-124 RUSLAN (slated start FY 2010: 2) (no open tender)
- 6 An-255 (slated start FY 2010: 1) (no open tender)
- 70 Mi-28A (slated start FY 2010: 20) (no open tender)

- 40 Il-96-400 (PS-90A2 engines) - 10 slated for end FY-2009/start FY-2010, with license plants producing parts in Byzantium (secured)
- 31 Coalition-SV artillery, Byzantium chassis-mounted (no open tender)


Langley:

- 3 An-22(A) (no open tender)
- 1 An-22P Gunship (no open tender)

- 8 Yak-130 trainers (secured)

N'Ton (Dave): - no open tender for all items, deal closed

- 15 BTR-60s
- 10 An-26s
- 10 An-12s

Royal Rail Republic (Redleader34):

- 1 An-225 (secure)

And supplied quite a bit of bids, I might keep track of them to remind people that I'm not a rookie on that market

[Coyote]

Less argue!
More content!

[Lonestar]

To all large powers: How much would it cost to purchase a nuclear reactor, with full international observers, of course, for power generation. I am looking into upgrading to Nuclear Energy, to help my new island's needs. I would also send a small division of students to learn nuclear technology from the local power(s) universities. Of course, I would accept observers, because I do not want to become a rouge nuclear state.

The Lone Star Republic can offer 1.3MW ABWR reactors for the low-low fee of $1 Bil a pop(pending inevitable cost overruns. )

[K. A. Pital]

More content!

Beowulf lost his clients. He actually now goes to claim that the cheapness of a 3 ton, 16 ton thrust small PS-90A versus a 7,5 ton, 40 ton thrust huge mega-engine the GE-74/94B type engine is a labour cost factor.

And I can see that an MA-60, Chinese built An-26 clone, is somehow getting a price tag of 13 million - are China's workers more expensive than Russia's? Especially the China workers from back to early 1990s-late1980s? That's ridiculous.

We can discount the engines if they're foreign built, but the airframe will get a still greater price; this is because of aerospace industry lagging in China, being not full-cycle and lacking experience, not "cheap labour solves everything".

EDIT: Same with the J-10 Chinese fighter. Somehow it costs exactly the same as a new-built, modernized MiG-29, which makes the idea of labour costs seriously impacting high-tech production such as avionics dubious.

EDIT2: I'm taking my bid off on the nuclear reactor. Lonestar is far closer to the Rail Republic, which means easier construction, less maintenance and more cooperation.

[Mr Bean]

OAN these Internet satellites are what I aim for true global internet. At 1,400 km you can still get good pings(Only 60ms delays) unlike GEO satellites which have 350ms delays.

But of course the cost of this system is going to be close to 15 billion, not pretty, not pretty at all, lucky I have still a 200 billion dollar budget for my space program. And we've not even gotten into robots to the moon!


Also reactors are fun, we need improved designs I think.

[Lonestar]

OAN these Internet satellites are what I aim for true global internet. At 1,400 km you can still get good pings(Only 60ms delays) unlike GEO satellites which have 350ms delays.

But of course the cost of this system is going to be close to 15 billion, not pretty, not pretty at all, lucky I have still a 200 billion dollar budget for my space program. And we've not even gotten into robots to the moon!


Also reactors are fun, we need improved designs I think.

For the moment I'm running with advanced boiling water reactors, because I have it in my head that my country is a almost-exact copy of Texas beamed in. Stuff like pebblebeds is a while off, if only because I need to get the power industry running first.

I migth add, redleader, that it might be smart to send some of your folks to a University in whatever county you eventually pick a design from. Unless you want foriegn personnel running your nuke plants forever(presumably there will be a large number of contract workers intially as you build up your nuclear engineering workforce).

[Mr Bean]

Pebble beds, that's where we need to spend billions. Then you can have Nuclear Tractors.

[PeZook]

You probably know that the Institutes and Universities which have a distinct aerospace engineering course, at least in Russia, are the ones which also have classified information access for students which means we'll check the guy. If he's clean, he's good to go.

Ah. I understand the situation.

If that's the case, can my people simply be present at the interrogation?

This way, you get to control the questions asked and the answers, while my people get to find out what they want about his MCP connections.

That, or simply interrogate him and release the video to us. We're mostly interested in his contacts within the MCP and others he might've had in line to buy those military weapons.h

[Mr Bean]

Hmm 200 billion budget, 61 billion spent so far and dedicated including training. I suppose I can plow two billion into education. I might have to cut a hundred billion from my budget and plow it into investment instead of the sciences. Considering I have foreign investment to the tune of 80 billion dollars assuming I use all that I still have money left over.

Hmm, which President was it who aimed the cut the military to the point that the nuclear option was the only option for foreign adventurous?

[phongn]

OAN these Internet satellites are what I aim for true global internet. At 1,400 km you can still get good pings(Only 60ms delays) unlike GEO satellites which have 350ms delays.

That assumes you don't have to bounce the signal from satellite-to-satellite to reach the ground station gateway, and then there's latency from there to the destination. Then there's the processing delay on the satellite, and routing concerns. According to a 1998 IEEE paper on the system, actual latency for voice was 270-390ms; latency for data could reach as high as 1700 ms. A USN study indicated that latencies around 1300 ms for data were common.

But of course the cost of this system is going to be close to 15 billion, not pretty, not pretty at all, lucky I have still a 200 billion dollar budget for my space program. And we've not even gotten into robots to the moon!

Bah, SCC is doing it for less than half the cost you are, and in 780 km orbit! It also means we can carry mobile voice traffic much more easily

Hmm, which President was it who aimed the cut the military to the point that the nuclear option was the only option for foreign adventurous?

Eisenhower, but strictly speaking that's not entirely correct. He could still deploy the USMC as needed. And it really was the conventional Army that was cut (and to a lesser extent, the Navy, even after the revolt of the Admirals) with the USAF and ARADCOM well-funded.

Also reactors are fun, we need improved designs I think.

On ArsTechnica I found a very good discussion on nuclear power. There's some mention of PBRs, a few on lead-cooled designs and especially discussion on AP1000 and EPR.

Finally, for people looking for actual performance data, the IAEA has a 2006 report on virtually every reactor in the world. Be warned, it's an 1100 page document. A summary publication is here (87 page PDF). Other nuclear power documents are listed here

[Lonestar]

Hmm, which President was it who aimed the cut the military to the point that the nuclear option was the only option for foreign adventurous?

Ike.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

To all large powers: How much would it cost to purchase a nuclear reactor, with full international observers, of course, for power generation. I am looking into upgrading to Nuclear Energy, to help my new island's needs. I would also send a small division of students to learn nuclear technology from the local power(s) universities. Of course, I would accept observers, because I do not want to become a rouge nuclear state.

Under OMSK, Byzantium is happy to offer some nuclear technology help. The Fast Breeder Reactor will be operational in 1-2 years which should yield 1600MW. We will offer one of these for 2 billion and you will not need too much uranium after the the reactor starts up, i.e. Plutonium economy.

[Lonestar]

Under OMSK, Byzantium is happy to offer some nuclear technology help. The Fast Breeder Reactor will be operational in 1-2 years which should yield 1600MW. We will offer one of these for 2 billion and you will not need too much uranium after the the reactor starts up, i.e. Plutonium economy.

Less bang for the buck(power supply wise) than my ABWGs, I note.