Please Explain the Ground Battle on Endor

[General Velal]

Well this is my first post here, I was wary as I have read the large amounts of posts between this board and the EAS board. I'm a member of that board as well as boards on other TV shows, Movies and music I like.

I want to give a little bit of background on myself as I want to avoid confusion in the future.

First off, I'm not here to "Flame" or to "Invade", I have my likes and dislikes in Trek as with any thing I'm a fan of. I have the laymens knowledge of hard science-but have read up on things to better understand them-one of the reasons, I Enjoy Science Fiction. My strengths lie in History and Military knowledge in the areas I focus in.

In regards to Star Wars, I grew up on that movie and I loved the Imperials, other kids rushed out to get the new Luke figure-I only cared when I goit another "Star Destroyer Commander" I really wanted one of those funky black helmets and loved seeing Stormtroopers hitting something-anything. As to the new films-AOTC was such a VAST improvement over TPM-and gave me hope Lucas can make the 3rd film decent.

So a place like this should be nirvana to me, no my love of Star Wars was lost when I saw Return of the Jedi. I loved the first movie- Empire was even (And still is) better-I mean General Veers! An Imperial officer who did something-my hero:)

I watched the empire lose some of its best legions to care bears with 3 digits-that have a mastery of giant tree manipulation that defies any meticlorian (sp?) count and saw some really painful (badly executed) combat scenes that undid the first half movie and the respect I had for the Empire.

But it was of course an analogy (Well Lucas cited) to Vietnam, where "Primitive" troops defeated a enemy with superior weaponry and technology. Thats the defence he gave oh and the small thing about originally the Ewoks were meant to be wookies-but he wanted Chewbacca to stand out-so we get the pleasure of seeing the Imperial forces be defeated on the ground by these cute money generators.

I'm bitter-The "Space part of the battle" was ok, but I still would like a decent reason as to the Imperial Fleets shocking performance outside of story convention (They are the bad guys so they lose......) I'm sure this came up before on this board-Just give me the hard science on the Ewoks defeat of the Emperors best Legions.

I'm cyncial but always willing to accept good factual reasoning. No" You are a fucktard" Wars Rulez" replys please-Fine you can swear, cool and use of swearing does not imply idiocy-but useful replys.

This is posted here as If the Empire can get trounced by Ewoks-Surely An Alpha Quradrant moon based furry species could save the Federation:)?

[Howedar]

The Imperial troops were not beaten by the Ewoks. They were beaten by a combination of inferior tactics, surprise, arrogance, and most important of all, Rebel troops. The Ewoks conducted a brilliant feint and threw the Stormtroopers off guard, but the Stormies were still winning until Chewie got a hold of that AT-ST.

[Master of Ossus]

This is posted here as If the Empire can get trounced by Ewoks-Surely An Alpha Quradrant moon based furry species could save the Federation:)?

First of all, you hardly need to justify your entire personal history, here. We really don't care. In regards to your general question (which I assume to be: "How could the Empire lose?"), the answer is that they completely underestimated the Ewoks. They had already taken the portion of the forest moon that they were interested in, and did not consider the Ewoks to be a significant threat to them. They were caught unawares and defeated by a group with superior numbers that was comfortable with the terrain.

They also erred in their general strategy for the Battle of Endor. The Imperials were convinced that the Bunker's control room was the centerpiece to the battle. They were attempting to protect the Bunker, and prevent it from being breached. The Rebels understood that they did not need to capture the Bunker, but were trying to destroy it. Thus, the Imperials held a large reserve force inside the Bunker, and were unprepared for the Rebel demolition work.

Essentially, the Imperial ground battle lacked cohesion. They essentially broke their forces into FIVE groups, that were all isolated and destroyed. One group was protecting the Bunker from the inside, in an effort to prevent the Rebels from entering the control room. One (small) group remained just outside the Bunker, attempting to destroy the Rebel commandoes that were holding the outside of the Bunker but were unable to enter. One group, on speeders, drove into the Forest in an effort to hunt down and destroy the Ewoks. The main mechanized group, made up of AT-ST's, similarly assaulted the Ewoks and was drawn into the forest, where it was isolated and engaged. The main body of Imperial infantry was also drawn into the Forest, but soon found itself isolated from mechanized support. Individually, these groups were inadequate to defeat the Rebels and the Ewoks, and all were destroyed.

[RedImperator]

Palpatine didn't expect the rebels to find the back door. The "entire legion" was at the main entrance, with AT-AT support. TIE support was presumably needed to contain the rebels in the space battle. The stormtroopers were outnumbered, and at least some of the defenders were lightly armed scoutroopers and unarmored officers. The Ewoks were clearly intimately familiar with fighting in dense forest, and they had the support of elite rebel commandoes. And the imperials still would have won had Chewbacca not hijacked an AT-ST.

This still doesn't excuse gross stupidity on the part of the imperials. They weren't patrolling around the back entrance, or else they would have spotted and stopped the Ewoks from setting their traps. Palpatine's refusal to commit the ISDs to the battle in space meant he couldn't spare any TIE fighters for the battle on the surface. The forest wasn't cleared out from around the bunker, making it possible for the rebels and ewoks to sneak up on it in the first place. The Imperials had no heavy weapons available. And finally, the crowning idiocy, the senior commander left behind in the bunker opened the blast door without checking the ID of the AT-ST pilot who was asking for help. They could have sat behind it and waited for support to come from the main entrance or space, and that would have been the end of the rebellion.

In short, a bunch of poorly led, grossly outnumbered, rear-line troops with no air or armor support managed to just barely lose to a large force of native warriors (who, despite their appearance, were tactically intelligent and brutally strong) and the best covert ops troops the rebels (who'd been doing gueriall warfare for years) could muster.

[Vympel]

I don't disagree with any of that, and yes the important thing is it was Chewbacca capturing an AT-ST that won the battle, not any effort of the Ewoks. Besides their two log tricked, everything they tried was utterly ineffective on the AT-STs. Greater Ewok numbers and better intimacy with the terrain meant they could get up close to Stormtroopers (who often focused more on the commandos- re: the firefight where the Ewoks sneak up on them) to beat them with clubs until they were unconcious.

[The Dark]

Another problem was lack of preparation. There were no fire lanes that I could see around the bunker, limiting range of engagement to very close combat (which gave an advantage to the native Ewoks). The white armor was highly visible, allowing for easier ambushes. It was really poor planning that led to the loss at Endor. If the base had been properly established, the Rebels would have been cut down before reaching it by E-Web blasters mounted to cover avenues of approach.

[General Velal]

"First of all, you hardly need to justify your entire personal history, here. We really don't care."

Ouch, Just sort of introducing myself, I would like to know more about someone in this faceless medium-so I approach it from that viewpoint.

Ok from the 3 replies I have read so far-I get the Imperials were idiots, They split themselves up, they lacked proper support "Mechanised"-They deployed in the wrong area. They were arrogant.

So the average Stormtrooper is rated what against an Ewok Warrior?
Do they function as part of an intergral combined arms unit? No They are by defition: Infantry-Elite apparently. Their distinctive armour is intimidation value-as Camoflage is a concept accepted in the Star Wars Universe (Rebel Commandoes) So what is with these Elite Infantry Troops, They fight on foot in various unit sizes, disregarding practical military camofage ,yet we see no depiction of there fighting prowess ability against Ewoks.

Mechanised Support? You mean an ATST and ATAT? Both vehicles were obviously bad choices for a Forest enviroment. The Log Traps were evidence of this. I mean OBVIOUS bad choices-the Speeder Bikes made some sense.

Knowledge of Terrain is important, Troop quality and Technology is also important. This is where Lucas "Vietnam" defence falls down,The Viet Cong were equipped with assault rifles just like the American/Allied forces. Stone Spears and Rocks are at a great disadvantage to a ranged Energy weapon even in that enviroment.

I need some hard proof on an Ewoks massive strength to manipulate those Trees at the size shown. Ewok morale? I guess it is Fanatical bordering zealot-BTW anyone know if they lost more than 2 dead?

As it stands this still shows the Empire as severly retarded in combat skill, basic tactics, command and control, and recon beyond farce. It undoes the credibabilty of them as opponents in a story let alone as a belivable Military force.

The Space aspect of the battle showed some massive problems that makes this Empire invasion of the Federation no wear neear a clear cut conclusion. Thank you though I received intelligent and well laid out replys.

[Warspite]

You're falling in the commom mistake of picking up a certain (special?) situation, and extrapolating it for the whole.
We've seen stormtroopers acting stupid in Endor, we've seen them acting like they should in Hoth and on the Tantive IV, we've seen them in the middle ground on the DS.
They made mistakes on Endor, they were arrogant, and they were surprised, which counts a lot, specialy in a "closed" enviroment like a forest. Also, note that the Ewoks are smaller, know the ways of the forest, and have a very natural camouflage.

I think the Imperials totally negleted the Ewoks (duh!), I mean, they considered them to be forest creatures, much like we would consider a monkey, an annoyance at most, they didn't took into account that the furries could show any sort of enterprise against the Stormtroopers.


BTW, that was probably one of the best first posts that I ever saw in my life!

[Darth Garden Gnome]

So the average Stormtrooper is rated what against an Ewok Warrior?Do they function as part of an intergral combined arms unit? No They are by defition: Infantry-Elite apparently. Their distinctive armour is intimidation value-as Camoflage is a concept accepted in the Star Wars Universe (Rebel Commandoes) So what is with these Elite Infantry Troops, They fight on foot in various unit sizes, disregarding practical military camofage ,yet we see no depiction of there fighting prowess ability against Ewoks.

I think theat Ewoks are physically superior to a stormie, beign human. But the stormie has the advantage, with a gun and all. Also on stormies lack of camo, that falls into the "intimidation factor." In the AOTC:VD it descirbes clone troopers as "white terrors" and "wanting their enemy to see them coming from afar." Did any of those factors have a place in thsi battle though? Probably not, more likley the Imps arogance kept them from using it.

Mechanised Support? You mean an ATST and ATAT? Both vehicles were obviously bad choices for a Forest enviroment. The Log Traps were evidence of this. I mean OBVIOUS bad choices-the Speeder Bikes made some sense.

Agreed. In TPM hover tanks like the AAT and MTT knocked over trees with little effort. It would have been far more pratical to use heavy tanks, since their armor would also be impenetrable to a falling tree, adn they wouldn't be tripped by one.

Knowledge of Terrain is important, Troop quality and Technology is also important. This is where Lucas "Vietnam" defence falls down,The Viet Cong were equipped with assault rifles just like the American/Allied forces. Stone Spears and Rocks are at a great disadvantage to a ranged Energy weapon even in that enviroment.

Less than you'd think. Blasters are tracable to their source, for starters, making the Ewoks camo effectivley useless. Second, the Rebelsdidhave blasters and they weren't making a substantial impact on the fight. In fact, since we hardly saw them after the beggining of the fight, I'd guess they were all dead! Which may have been due to the fact that their guns give away their position.

I need some hard proof on an Ewoks massive strength to manipulate those Trees at the size shown. Ewok morale? I guess it is Fanatical bordering zealot-BTW anyone know if they lost more than 2 dead?

The novel describes mor emassive Ewok casualties. But hundreds of Ewoks going home in body bags would hardly constitute a kid-friendly mive (and that's where the cash is).

As it stands this still shows the Empire as severly retarded in combat skill, basic tactics, command and control, and recon beyond farce. It undoes the credibabilty of them as opponents in a story let alone as a belivable Military force.

Combat skill eh? See ANH on the Tantive IV. See TESB, they took the base wiht snowtroopers, and conquered the shields with AT-AT. See AOTC too, since they are pretty much identical to stormies.

Anyways, the Emperor's arrogance was the crowning glory of 'em all. Besides letting them land in the first place, he let the Imps take the guys prisoner and LEAVE THEM OUT IN THE OPEN. If anything he should've detached shuttles to pick them up, or at least sore them away in the bunker.

The Space aspect of the battle showed some massive problems that makes this Empire invasion of the Federation no wear neear a clear cut conclusion. Thank you though I received intelligent and well laid out replys.

Space is an enitrley different ballpark, trust me, and has no semblence ot a ground battle in most respects. The fact that the Rebs weren't being owned by the Imps is because of Palp's strict ordersnotto let the ISDs fire on Rebel cruisers.

Anyways, the Feds have painfully weak tech compared to the Imps, it maters less, ESPECIALLY in space....

[Vympel]

"First of all, you hardly need to justify your entire personal history, here. We really don't care."

Ouch, Just sort of introducing myself, I would like to know more about someone in this faceless medium-so I approach it from that viewpoint.

Don't take it that way- MoO just meant that you don't need to justify yourself. Just say your piece and you'll be right.

Ok from the 3 replies I have read so far-I get the Imperials were idiots, They split themselves up, they lacked proper support "Mechanised"-They deployed in the wrong area. They were arrogant.

Pretty much.

So the average Stormtrooper is rated what against an Ewok Warrior?
Do they function as part of an intergral combined arms unit? No They are by defition: Infantry-Elite apparently. Their distinctive armour is intimidation value-as Camoflage is a concept accepted in the Star Wars Universe (Rebel Commandoes) So what is with these Elite Infantry Troops, They fight on foot in various unit sizes, disregarding practical military camofage ,yet we see no depiction of there fighting prowess ability against Ewoks.

They're air-mobile/ mechanized infantry. As you seen in AOTC, their prime mount was the LAAT and AT-TE (both carry a full platoon). In ESB, their mechanized mount is the AT-AT.

As to an Ewok, the average Stormtrooper can kill one in two seconds flat, and toss them about (ROTJ, stormtrooper casually tosses one). That doesn't change the fact that the Ewoks outnumbered them, had them surrounded, and had the advantage of surprise. You'll notice that all the Ewok 'kills' (unconcious) were at extreme close quarters, almost always by surprise. Ranged attacks were few (rock slings, initial flight of arrows that was largely ineffective)

Mechanised Support? You mean an ATST and ATAT? Both vehicles were obviously bad choices for a Forest enviroment. The Log Traps were evidence of this. I mean OBVIOUS bad choices-the Speeder Bikes made some sense.

The AT-ST was the best pick. I can't think of a better vehicle- a mechanized walker design is shit compared to a tank for all sorts of reasons, but the AT-ST's height and mode of walking was an advantage in the forest. The log-traps don't constitute evidence of obvious bad choices. They are hardly a natural forest feature- this is like saying tanks are a bad choice for plains because of mines.

Knowledge of Terrain is important, Troop quality and Technology is also important. This is where Lucas "Vietnam" defence falls down,The Viet Cong were equipped with assault rifles just like the American/Allied forces. Stone Spears and Rocks are at a great disadvantage to a ranged Energy weapon even in that enviroment.

Which is why I think Lucas had a brain fart with that one

I need some hard proof on an Ewoks massive strength to manipulate those Trees at the size shown. Ewok morale? I guess it is Fanatical bordering zealot-BTW anyone know if they lost more than 2 dead?

Well, you can always look at the size of the rocks they're lifting over their head and tossing down on stormtroopers? Don't know really. They can cut and move those trees around, obviously.

As it stands this still shows the Empire as severly retarded in combat skill, basic tactics, command and control, and recon beyond farce. It undoes the credibabilty of them as opponents in a story let alone as a belivable Military force.

Then I suppose you forgot Attack of the Clones, A New Hope, and Empire Strikes Back?

The Space aspect of the battle showed some massive problems that makes this Empire invasion of the Federation no wear neear a clear cut conclusion. Thank you though I received intelligent and well laid out replys.

Justify that bullshit please.

[Typhonis 1]

Ewoks according to the books lost massive casualties .Also the simple expedient of cutting the forest back and setting up an electrified fence would have hampered the Rebels greatly I mean cmon they can power the forcefield that protects the Death Star but not an electric fence??????

[Darth Yoshi]

Like they said, the Imps got careless. Also, the Rebels weren't supposed to know about the back door. The Inps didn't want the Rebels to know about it, hence the lack of support. After, guarding your secret back door with patrols and the like kinda gives away its position.

BTW, introductions are what the OT forum is for.

[Master of Ossus]

"First of all, you hardly need to justify your entire personal history, here. We really don't care."

Ouch, Just sort of introducing myself, I would like to know more about someone in this faceless medium-so I approach it from that viewpoint.

I guess I was hard on you. I just don't think it should be necessary (or even particularly obligatory) for anyone coming over here from another board to explain, "I like Star Wars. I also like Star Trek. I've been a Star Wars fan since I could walk, etc. etc. etc.". Frankly, we've heard that same story from almost everyone here, and so it's almost universally true. If you want to talk about yourself, go to the "Off-Topic" forum, where such threads are encouraged. I just didn't want this to appear as though you MUST claim to be a fan of SW, ST, Care Bears and Barney in order to make any posts here. Just be yourself.

Ok from the 3 replies I have read so far-I get the Imperials were idiots, They split themselves up, they lacked proper support "Mechanised"-They deployed in the wrong area. They were arrogant.

Basically. Their other problem was that they allowed themselves to be drawn into the forest and away from the Bunker. Once separated, they were vulnerable.

So the average Stormtrooper is rated what against an Ewok Warrior?
Do they function as part of an intergral combined arms unit? No They are by defition: Infantry-Elite apparently. Their distinctive armour is intimidation value-as Camoflage is a concept accepted in the Star Wars Universe (Rebel Commandoes) So what is with these Elite Infantry Troops, They fight on foot in various unit sizes, disregarding practical military camofage ,yet we see no depiction of there fighting prowess ability against Ewoks.

A stormtrooper is probably "worth" somewhere between three and seven Ewoks. More if the Ewoks are visible at a range, and less if the Ewoks are allowed to attack them in melee combat. Also, more if the Ewoks fight one at a time, and less if the Ewoks attack in large numbers. The fact that we do not see their "fighting prowess" against the Ewoks is an unfortunate biproduct of the way the movie was made. The novel clearly describes Ewoks engaging stormtroopers, with the stormtroopers fairing quite well.

Mechanised Support? You mean an ATST and ATAT? Both vehicles were obviously bad choices for a Forest enviroment. The Log Traps were evidence of this. I mean OBVIOUS bad choices-the Speeder Bikes made some sense.

Knowledge of Terrain is important, Troop quality and Technology is also important. This is where Lucas "Vietnam" defence falls down,The Viet Cong were equipped with assault rifles just like the American/Allied forces. Stone Spears and Rocks are at a great disadvantage to a ranged Energy weapon even in that enviroment.

Ewok arrows are, according to some EU sources, as accurate over short ranges as blaster fire. Yes, the spears are a liability, however the Ewok ability to surprise stormtroopers, and engage various different groups of Imperials at different times, allowed them to defeat the Imperials. Note that the log traps, catapults, and vine traps described in the novel all required substantial preparation time on the part of the Ewoks, who were trying to lead Imperial forces to specified, booby-trapped locations from the opening moments of the conflict. Such traps could NOT have been set up during the battle, and were instead part of a strategy that the Ewoks used to successfully engage their enemies. These kinds of traps were, in fact, used to great success by the Viet Cong during the war, though the Rebels were primarily responsible for destroying the largest and most powerful portions of the Imperial forces.

I need some hard proof on an Ewoks massive strength to manipulate those Trees at the size shown. Ewok morale? I guess it is Fanatical bordering zealot-BTW anyone know if they lost more than 2 dead?

The Ewoks easily lifted stones the size of large melons over their heads, with which they bombarded Imperial troops. A human would have had difficulty doing this, unless he was in VERY good shape.

As it stands this still shows the Empire as severly retarded in combat skill, basic tactics, command and control, and recon beyond farce. It undoes the credibabilty of them as opponents in a story let alone as a belivable Military force.

The Space aspect of the battle showed some massive problems that makes this Empire invasion of the Federation no wear neear a clear cut conclusion. Thank you though I received intelligent and well laid out replys.

I agree with much of your premise, but the conclusion you base on that is laughable. Demonstrate an example of UFP forces using superior tactics. I would also like for you to look at the numbers discrepencies between the two sides, and consider the situation. In a real war, the UFP would have the advantage of defense. The Imperials would not be surprised in any way by UFP forces. They would benefit from striking whenever and wherever they felt like it. Further, if the Imperials actually do have problems overwhelming the RIDICULOUSLY under-armed and under-equipped UFP ground forces, which lack ANY ground support other than the new dune-buggy showed in "Nemesis," which is obviously not well suited to combat, the Imperials would ALWAYS have the option of bombing the UFP into the stone-age from orbit.

As an example of why the Imperials would win anyway, let's replace the Imperial force on Endor with a group from the UFP. The UFP has no ground vehicles, other than the aforementioned POS. They wear no armor, and they would have no support for the situation (just like the Empire). Now, their lack of armor would result in a large group of Federation forces being killed during the opening seconds of combat, during which Ewoks rained arrows upon Imperial forces. Moreover, there would be little need for the Ewoks to fake an assault on the Imperial position, and then retreat in a false rout the way they did. Instead, the Ewoks would all be involved in the initial attack, and would almost certainly overwhelm the UFP position. Note the number of Ewok archers during the ambush of the three squads during the closing moments of the battle. It is obvious that no UFP force of the size seen could have withstood an attack by that many Ewoks, even with all of the Ewok casualties that occurred during the battle itself. In other words, the UFP would have fared significantly worse during the battle than the Imperials did. They would have been destroyed utterly in the opening minutes of combat, and no UFP soldiers would remain fighting within half an hour of the beginning of the battle. The Bunker would have been destroyed immediatley, and their objectives would have failed. Sorry, they lose anyway. I find it astonishing that anyone can look at the evidence and not come to the same conclusion immediately. Did you ever think about this?

[Master of Ossus]

BTW, there IS historical precedent for such a defeat. When Crassus lost his legions in the German wilderness, he lost them for almost exactly the same reason. His heavy troops split apart instead of remaining together and fighting as a legion, after the Germanic tribes had established a false-front and then mocked a rout. The Romans pursued and were slaughtered once they had fallen into the trap the Germans had created.

[Slartibartfast]

Additionally the Ewoks, despite their size, weren't just cute harmless teddy bears, they did have a great deal of physical strength (at least proportionally). Two of them easily could carry a human adult, droid (heavy!) and even a Wookie (also heavy, I suppose) on a wooden pole (I'm willing to guess the pole also has weight)

I don't have the scene fresh in my mind but I think they were doing that, merely two Ewoks per pole.

And the little buggers were literally raining from the trees. Maybe there were a lot of stormtroopers, but there was an unending supply of Ewoks

[Slartibartfast]

BTW, that was probably one of the best first posts that I ever saw in my life!

Yeah, but the second post leaves something to be desired.

[General Velal]

Hi All,

Well I like all of the replys and good points.

Master of Ossus

By Crassus do you mean Varus, who lost 3 legions in the Teutonberg Forest in AD9? Thats considered the worst military disaster to befall the Roman Empire. It matches Endor-In that it happened due in part to Varus was arrogant and an Idiot -matching the way Imperial Officers operate. The Germans of course knew the Terrain way better as well.

What does not match is both sides were armed with the same weapon technology. There was also the duplicity of Arminius being his ally-which led Varus to adopt on top of his stupidity a relaxed attitude.

If you mean Crassus well I'm not familiar with this battle you speak of.
What date please?


Ok I see the "Books" I guess the Novelisations are utilised here to great degree as the books lists massive Ewok Casulties. Fine-I have respect for the books then.

Now how quickly people have just leaped for the jugular on my closing comment is cause for concern.

Notice I say Empires invasion of the Federation not a clear cut conclusion. I failed to explain why I feel this, first because the Empires Command is erratic. Dangerously so, The Emperor holds back his battle worthy space element so the Death Star can destroy 2 ships. His Chief Kick Ass Man Vader, plays Yo-Yos with the Imperial Command killing some-Promoting others. This would mean that has been seen with Hitler and the Whermacht, no matter how good your equipment, Training or even numbers, if you have an unstable Commander in chief, a High Command that rewards political clout/obvious and one time succcess over experience and caution -You can lose.

Now saying that-I would still belive that the Empire would win on other factors-But I feel it is a very complicated scenario-one that does require an entire board to look at.

I do admit the Stormtroopers were looking good against the Rebel Troops aboard the Blockade Runner, and on Hoth the Empire gained all the respect it deserved-General Veers carried out his orders-outstanding given the way Imperials are portrayed.

But as Master of Ossus points out and I fully agree, UFP Ground forces would suffer a total and quicker defeat than Imperial forces. I better state my feelings on this whole topic.

Now simply put in the way both Universes ground force actions are displayed-The Star Wars one makes more sense and utilises a coventional method we can understand.

Star Trek adds one factor that has never been explained and that is how Transporter Technology would rewrite standard military movement rules. They attempted to say in one DS9 Episode (The Same one where we see the Feds version of a flak jacket and references to some sort of Ground Combat Vehicle called a Hopper-too little to late IMHO) that the Enemy in this case Klingons placed Scramblers (Transpot Disrupting devices) which I assume limits where your enemy can beam to.

This means that you would you use combat craft to get to the surface-thus meaning more conventional warfare so the UFP should have all of the required aspects of that Armour/Camoflage/Dedicated Ground vehicles-Yuck, Its never been addressed properly and even then it would not make sense.

I notice that AOTC Republic Clones/and the Empire Stormtroopers are being equated to each other. Well besides the fact that one becomes the other-The AOTC forces utilise better equipment for Endor. The Gunship would have been a major factor-it would have undone the Trap aspect of the Ewoks to say the least.


BTW Thanks Warspite

Slartibartfast-Oh come on

[Master of Ossus]

Hi All,

Well I like all of the replys and good points.

Master of Ossus

By Crassus do you mean Varus, who lost 3 legions in the Teutonberg Forest in AD9?

Ah, yes, of course. I'm sorry.

Thats considered the worst military disaster to befall the Roman Empire. It matches Endor-In that it happened due in part to Varus was arrogant and an Idiot -matching the way Imperial Officers operate. The Germans of course knew the Terrain way better as well.

Yes, that's why I picked the analogy, although I screwed up the name. Crassus was the one killed in Persia, in the Battle of Carrhae. Sorry about that, that would be more than a little confusing.

What does not match is both sides were armed with the same weapon technology. There was also the duplicity of Arminius being his ally-which led Varus to adopt on top of his stupidity a relaxed attitude.

Actually, the Germans were using inferior equipment to that of the Romans, and the analogy is still sound. You have a group that has superior forces tricked using a false-center and a feigned rout that draws the superior force into an area in which they can be destroyed.

If you mean Crassus well I'm not familiar with this battle you speak of.
What date please?

No, you're right.

Ok I see the "Books" I guess the Novelisations are utilised here to great degree as the books lists massive Ewok Casulties. Fine-I have respect for the books then.

Now how quickly people have just leaped for the jugular on my closing comment is cause for concern.

Notice I say Empires invasion of the Federation not a clear cut conclusion. I failed to explain why I feel this, first because the Empires Command is erratic. Dangerously so, The Emperor holds back his battle worthy space element so the Death Star can destroy 2 ships. His Chief Kick Ass Man Vader, plays Yo-Yos with the Imperial Command killing some-Promoting others. This would mean that has been seen with Hitler and the Whermacht, no matter how good your equipment, Training or even numbers, if you have an unstable Commander in chief, a High Command that rewards political clout/obvious and one time succcess over experience and caution -You can lose.

Perhaps, but an Imperial loss would be almost inexplicable, even given the knowledge that he does underestimate his enemies and is over confident (as Luke points out to him prior to the battle). The only way in which the UFP could even theoretically win would be if the Emperor BOTH decided to directly take command of the war, AND if they managed to kill him. Regardless of how stupid he was, it would likely not make any significant difference as to the victor of the war, though admittedly it could drive up the cost in resources and lives for both sides if he were to bungle the invasion.

Now saying that-I would still belive that the Empire would win on other factors-But I feel it is a very complicated scenario-one that does require an entire board to look at.

Hmmm... I hardly see your point. The Empire has more Star Destroyers than the UFP has shuttles. Even a few sector fleets would be more than adequate for wiping out the UFP. If they failed, another one would replace them. There would be no permanent damage to the Empire, which would recover rather quickly from such losses, so long as no members of its senior leadership were also killed.

I do admit the Stormtroopers were looking good against the Rebel Troops aboard the Blockade Runner, and on Hoth the Empire gained all the respect it deserved-General Veers carried out his orders-outstanding given the way Imperials are portrayed.

But as Master of Ossus points out and I fully agree, UFP Ground forces would suffer a total and quicker defeat than Imperial forces. I better state my feelings on this whole topic.

Now simply put in the way both Universes ground force actions are displayed-The Star Wars one makes more sense and utilises a coventional method we can understand.

Star Trek adds one factor that has never been explained and that is how Transporter Technology would rewrite standard military movement rules. They attempted to say in one DS9 Episode (The Same one where we see the Feds version of a flak jacket and references to some sort of Ground Combat Vehicle called a Hopper-too little to late IMHO) that the Enemy in this case Klingons placed Scramblers (Transpot Disrupting devices) which I assume limits where your enemy can beam to.

They have ignored the potential tactical use of transporters even when there was nothing to prevent their use. Look at the Enterprise episode "Marauders" (actually, if you haven't seen it, just take my word on it, as it's not worth watching). In the episode, Klingon shock troops are trapped in a flaming circle, and forced to parley with a group of people they oppressed. They can freely beam out of the circle, which they do, but never beam back down to the planet. If I had been the Klingons, I would have waited for my enemies to have emerged from their crappy "entrenchment" (it was a little rise in the terrain) to celebrate, then beamed back down and attacked. They never killed any Klingons, and had only the weakest weapons available. It would have been a glorious slaughter. Instead, the Klingons just went on their merry little way.

This means that you would you use combat craft to get to the surface-thus meaning more conventional warfare so the UFP should have all of the required aspects of that Armour/Camoflage/Dedicated Ground vehicles-Yuck, Its never been addressed properly and even then it would not make sense.

I notice that AOTC Republic Clones/and the Empire Stormtroopers are being equated to each other. Well besides the fact that one becomes the other-The AOTC forces utilise better equipment for Endor. The Gunship would have been a major factor-it would have undone the Trap aspect of the Ewoks to say the least.

True. Most speculate that using such aircraft is unfeasible under planetary shield generators, perhaps due to a danger posed to the aircraft. This would also explain the lack of X-Wings at Hoth, and the lack of starfighters providing support for the Rebels during the Battle of Endor.

[Vympel]

I notice that AOTC Republic Clones/and the Empire Stormtroopers are being equated to each other. Well besides the fact that one becomes the other-The AOTC forces utilise better equipment for Endor. The Gunship would have been a major factor-it would have undone the Trap aspect of the Ewoks to say the least.

Not really, that's very dense forest, the gunships would have trouble targeting much, but they wouldn't be vulnerable to anything, conversely.

[Knife]

My take:

Once the rebels were originaly captured and taken back outside for processing, the initial attack began. Here, a large contigent of Ewoks attacked the troops with (Ewok)ranged weapons and used aged old tactic of screaming and hooting like madmen(bears). This was a feint and it worked well. It threw the Imperials into undisiplined action as the troops ran after the Ewoks with out any observable coordination. The troops seemed to fall back onto small unit actions without coordinated command and control.

Here we see the lack of foresight with the building of the facility. The Ewoks were able to approch the bunker to with in just a matter of meters. The Imperials never thought of the Ewoks as a threat, and they apperently never thought the rebels would attack them (local commanders, not the Emperor who knew the rebels would) so they never bothered to clear the fields of fire and acount for any deadspace let alone any defense in debth. They relied on mounted patrols for security and even then the patrols seemed to be more for show or just habit since the destruction on one or two patrols did not increase the security of the bunker any.

The lack of command and control continues as the troops charge into the forrest without thinking of mutual support. Here they are ambushed again by well thought out traps, both personel and anti-armor. The infantry is not supporting the armor and vice versa. Again, they think that the Ewoks are little cause for concern. Using guerilla tactics, the Ewoks break up the enemy formations and channel them using the terrain that they know better than the enemy.

Now the intial success of the Ewoks begains to fade as some sort of coordination begains to seep into the Imperial troops. The initial shock of the Ewok attack wears off and they begin to overcome the numericly superior but tech inferior force. The Ewok heavy weapons prove inadaqute to deter the enemy armor and only a few anti armor traps seem capable of killing the ATST's. Where the Ewoks can mass in enough numbers to bring down enemy troops, they win. But they still are taking causualties and continue moving deeper into the forest.

The Ewoks were just about to be overrun by Imperial troops, when a captured armor unit again broke up the Imperial formations to allow the Ewoks to retreat and displace. The captured ATST performs a rearguard action to ensure the Ewoks escape and again threw the C&C of the Imperials into chaos.

This is a battle that the Ewoks can't win and they know it. Their mission is one of distraction and diversion and they do it well. They are successfull in luring the enemy away from the intended target so that other forces can destroy it. The Imperial troops are not so much beaten as they are tricked into following a feint that allows for the real assualt to be carried out. Arrogance and lack of Command and Control defeated the Imperial troops at Endor.

In general, the ATST were probably the best form of armor the Imperial could deploy on Endor. They are flexible and can obviously traverse the terrain while still delivering a healthy payload of weapons. Two were lost by simple tank traps and that probably wouldn't have happened if they had the infantry support with them. The other loses were from their own captured weaponry that was designed to destroy such targets.

The heavy tree cover would prevent any airsupport and/or artillery support so the lack of C&C to coordinate the armor and infantry is the deathnail in the Imperials camp. Lack of proper camo is a concern, but then again since every shot with a blaster is basicly a tracer, finding a enemy combatent is not that hard and the Imperials were never trying to be subtle.

The Ewoks didn't defeat the Imperials per se, but did pull of a successfull feint that allowed for other forces to carry out the mission and destroy the target. If the rebels had not been able to access the bunker durring the battle, the Ewoks and even the captured ATST would have been overrun by Imperial troops sooner or later. The Imperials were strung out over a large area at that point and could have regrouped and counter attacked the bunker and/or Ewok positions. I don't remeber if all of the ATST were destroyed at that point, but I have to believe that the ATAT was enroute at that point to engage the rebels and Ewoks.

As someone pointed out, it seems the Imperials were trying to deter anyone from capturing the facility and the rebels were just trying to destroy it. Here again the Imperails fail, they should have realized the real threat and had its forces concentrate on the bunker instead of the retreating forces.

As always, IMHO.

[Soulman]

A better analogy might be the Zulu Wars (despite the different terrain) where tactically adept warriors equipped almost exclusively with melee weapons defeated British troops (well, on occasion) equipped with bolt-action rifles and early machine guns.

[Admiral_K]

They have ignored the potential tactical use of transporters even when there was nothing to prevent their use. Look at the Enterprise episode "Marauders" (actually, if you haven't seen it, just take my word on it, as it's not worth watching). In the episode, Klingon shock troops are trapped in a flaming circle, and forced to parley with a group of people they oppressed. They can freely beam out of the circle, which they do, but never beam back down to the planet. If I had been the Klingons, I would have waited for my enemies to have emerged from their crappy "entrenchment" (it was a little rise in the terrain) to celebrate, then beamed back down and attacked. They never killed any Klingons, and had only the weakest weapons available. It would have been a glorious slaughter. Instead, the Klingons just went on their merry little way.

That was an absolutely terrible episode. They should have killed the fucking Klingons in the first place and they more than had justification to do so (since the Klingons had already killed some of the colonists in the past). It was some of the most pathetic writing I've ever seen.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Imperials pretty much consistently slaughtered the Ewoks until a Wookie turned an AT-ST against them. I'm not seeing the problem.

[AdmiralKanos]

Now how quickly people have just leaped for the jugular on my closing comment is cause for concern.

Admit it, your closing comment was either foolish or overstated.

Notice I say Empires invasion of the Federation not a clear cut conclusion. I failed to explain why I feel this, first because the Empires Command is erratic. Dangerously so, The Emperor holds back his battle worthy space element so the Death Star can destroy 2 ships. His Chief Kick Ass Man Vader, plays Yo-Yos with the Imperial Command killing some-Promoting others. This would mean that has been seen with Hitler and the Whermacht, no matter how good your equipment, Training or even numbers, if you have an unstable Commander in chief, a High Command that rewards political clout/obvious and one time succcess over experience and caution -You can lose.

Not with a thousand-to-one advantage in speed, firepower, and numbers. The Feds would be unable to even reach an Imperial system for a counter-attack, or intercept any Imperial forces en route from one target to another! It takes more than incompetence for the Feds to pose a difficulty for the Empire; it would take a deliberate effort to fail.

Star Trek adds one factor that has never been explained and that is how Transporter Technology would rewrite standard military movement rules. They attempted to say in one DS9 Episode (The Same one where we see the Feds version of a flak jacket and references to some sort of Ground Combat Vehicle called a Hopper-too little to late IMHO) that the Enemy in this case Klingons placed Scramblers (Transpot Disrupting devices) which I assume limits where your enemy can beam to.

It's worse than that. Transporters can be easily jammed with mundane electromagnetic interference (including inadvertent emissions from electrical transformers) or even deliberately REDIRECTED with tractor beams (see my Canon Database). Even if we pull the usual Trekkie trick of assuming they know all of their enemies' capabilities while the Imps don't , it wouldn't take too long for someone to discover various countermeasures to use against this trick (and theatre shields would stymie it entirely). And given the deployment rate limits (again, see the database), they could only deploy troops in a relative trickle; if the enemy can detect their transporter activity in any way, any transporter-deployed forces would be hit with artillery long before they can aggregate enough numbers to pose a threat to anyone.

This means that you would you use combat craft to get to the surface-thus meaning more conventional warfare so the UFP should have all of the required aspects of that Armour/Camoflage/Dedicated Ground vehicles-Yuck, Its never been addressed properly and even then it would not make sense.

They are heavily reliant on orbital support and the rickety crutch of transporter technology.

[General Velal]

Now how quickly people have just leaped for the jugular on my closing comment is cause for concern.

Admit it, your closing comment was either foolish or overstated..

Oh, Come on, it was going well, enough with the "foolish" bit, In my futher reply to the Master of Ossus-I realised that I had not fully explained what I meant-can you retract the blade?

This is why I read this board for some time before joining, The pros and cons of it were weighed up, The Pros were there were some intelligent, interesting debates, points, facts raised enough I decided to risk the cons of the insulting, flaming, group bashing, paranoia fueled by idiots from elsewhere-this invasion stuff WTF?-Invading message boards-whoever did WTF?

My post fit this area and got my food for thought-now no one needs to be called foolish-Alright it has been stated by yourself and others about the Empires Numericial, Technolgoical etc Advantage-am I debating that? I'm pointing out the "Erratic Emperor is a potential problem" I got a good reply leave it at that.