Free will? DO we even have any free will?

[ray245]

Well, firstly I want to ask is, is free will a christian concept?

And secondly, which is what I am concerned about is the existence of free will. The concept falls apart when you started to be aware that your action is pre-determinded by other factors, like your surrondings, your genetic influence and etc.


So bascially we are just creatures that don't really have any free will by this argument right?

Or can someone enlighten me on the issue?

[Darth Wong]

Well, firstly I want to ask is, is free will a christian concept?

And secondly, which is what I am concerned about is the existence of free will. The concept falls apart when you started to be aware that your action is pre-determinded by other factors, like your surrondings, your genetic influence and etc.


So bascially we are just creatures that don't really have any free will by this argument right?

Or can someone enlighten me on the issue?

We have the free will to do what we want, within the constraints imposed by practicality and society. What we want is determined by a lot of factors outside our control, however.

PS. This is a bog-standard Philosophy 101 question.

[Knife]

Well, firstly I want to ask is, is free will a christian concept?

No, christianity is about submitting to their lord. To do so they have to follow the rituals and rules set forth by the religion that cover a staggering amount of a persons life.

And secondly, which is what I am concerned about is the existence of free will. The concept falls apart when you started to be aware that your action is pre-determinded by other factors, like your surrondings, your genetic influence and etc.

It doesn't have to be a black/white thing though which is what it sounds like you're setting it up to be. Of course your surroundings affect you as does the people and society around you. However, you choose a lot of those people and to a certain extent you choose your surroundings.

You can have free will without being absolute master of all factors around you.

[Kanastrous]

Well, firstly I want to ask is, is free will a christian concept?

No, christianity is about submitting to their lord. To do so they have to follow the rituals and rules set forth by the religion that cover a staggering amount of a persons life.

Pre-Lutheran Christianity placed great emphasis upon free will - the freedom to obey the strictures of the religion, or to ignore them.

The fact that ignoring those strictures would theoretically earn you eternal damnation post-this-life, and quite possibly arrest and torture during, doesn't alter the fact that they regarded individuals as having the ability to exercise a will to choose.

[Alerik the Fortunate]

Free will is just Christianity's way of absolving God of any responsibility for everything that goes wrong in life despite him being all knowing, all powerful, and perfectly loving, so that they can validate worshiping him without question.

As for real life, I would argue that people's freedom of will is somewhat limited by how reflective they are. Until they are aware of what they really want, how they tend to react, what environmental factors influence them, etc. many people tend to be unconsciously reactive to a lot of things and therefore prisoners of their environment. Of course, one has to choose to be reflective and to consider other options, and as to what influences one person to start this path at one time and another not to could be random environmental influences.

[ArmorPierce]

I feel that as an individual we have free will but as a society we are just part of statistics.

[Shinova]

I think we have free will but unless you're extremely rich and powerful we have no power to act on it much.

[Sarevok]

Would not a better question be 1) Is the universe predictable and there is no such thing as a truly randome event 2 ) If so does this mean everything in the universe is predetermined ?

[Superboy]

We have free will, just not in the way that Christians think of it.

We choose to do what we want, that's free will in it's most basic form.

Christianity describes free will as something that makes it justified to punish someone for all eternity because of their actions. If you consider determinism, this is absurd.

[Zixinus]

We haven the ability to chose between our emotions, to choose our thinking, to dare or to stay back. Some people have a more determined path in life then others.

I think the better question is, is there such a thing as destiny? I think the consensual answer will be "no" around here.

[Kanastrous]

There is no destiny save what we make for ourselves.

[Superboy]

What's the difference between destiny and determinism? Or are you saying there's no determinism?

[Darth Wong]

A better term for "free will" is "freedom of action". We have limited freedom of action. "Free will" itself is a meaningless term.

[Zadius]

Whatever rules govern the universe and all matter, govern us as well. Yes, ultimately even human action. Whether the universe is deterministic, stochastic or something else, we aren't exempt. That's the most important thing to realize first. That doesn't mean there is no free will. There are conceptions of free will that are compatible with this, which others in this thread have already expressed. Simply call it free will that we can choose how to act, even though we can't choose how we want to act. That suits me just fine. I wouldn't want an infinite regression of choices, anyway.

Some conceptions of free will require us to be exempt from the rules that govern other matter. They usually have to invent supernatural souls or spirits in order to try to rationalize that. I think most of us here can agree that it's utter nonsense.

What's the difference between destiny and determinism? Or are you saying there's no determinism?

I think destiny is the idea that no matter what you do, the end result will be the same, whereas determinism says your actions themselves are already decided.

[Stark]

A better term for "free will" is "freedom of action". We have limited freedom of action. "Free will" itself is a meaningless term.

Considering either concept 'Christian' boggles the mind. If he meant it in the obvious sense, 'did Christians invent the concept of free will', that's terrifying.

Ray, try reading a book, or even a philosophy website. Christians hacked on about free will a great deal because without free will punishment for sinners is pretty unethical, but with free will 'God's design' is pretty weak. They were *concerned* with it, they don't *own* the concept.

Seriously, read a book. As Mike says, this is pretty much the second philosophy question ever.

[Rye]

I personally suspect it is something like this:

Every desire and action is a consequence of preexisting conditions, so as far as the acausal magic of free will, no it doesn't exist. The human experience of will and choice is how the brain perceives its own processing and adaptable set of desires, goals and potential action routes to accomplish them. Free will would look the same to us whether the universe is deterministic or not.

Humans behave in potentially predictable ways most of the time, so if free will were to exist, it would only be in an extremely reduced faculty, like Mike says, a freedom in choices of action, but an action will be performed regardless (note that abstinence from action will have consequences that are equally as chosen).

[Kanastrous]

I guess the question that always follows, for me, is, what does it matter?

[Hawkwings]

Some people are terrified that their every action is pre-determined. Others take comfort in it.

[Kanastrous]

Mmm.

I don't understand either mindset.

Add it to the list of stuff I don't understand.

[Stark]

Mmm.

I don't understand either mindset.

Add it to the list of stuff I don't understand.

If there's no free will, you might be on a fixed course to serial rapist or mass murderer. If there is free will, every mistake you make is entirely on your shoulders.

Like Rye, I'm quite a determinist myself, as the universe seems to be quite a deterministic place at our level. I'm not convinced you have no choice at all, but there's a near-zero probability of people acting massively 'out of character' for no reason, etc.

[Kanastrous]

Since there is every appearance that we have free will, whether or not the seemingly unanswerable question as to whether we "really" do, impresses me as pointless.

Except in certain theological debates. Which themselves impress me as being fairly pointless, even if they can be very entertaining.

[Kanastrous]

ghetto edit -

Since there is every appearance that we have free will, the seemingly unanswerable question as to whether we "really" do, impresses me as pointless.

[Stark]

In what way does it 'appear' that we have free will? Can you explain this in more detail?

If you don't see the 'point' of knowing whether everything you do is fixed or if your choices burden you with responsibility, bully for you. I'm a determinist, but I still take full responsibility for my actions - I'm not a christian thinker.

[Kanastrous]

It appears to me that, when I wake up thirsty, it's the free exercise of my will to stand, go to the kitchen, and draw a glass of water to drink. Or to tolerate being thirsty, in order to stay warm under the covers.

It does not appear to me that I am being marionetted around by some form of predetermination, in the process.

Sure, I can imagine that all of my actions and decisions have been predetermined, and I'm just running on tracks, but where's the evidence to suggest that?

Whereas at least I have a form of evidence that I act according to my own will, in that memory lets me follow the sequence on actions and/or inputs and/or decisions, that apparently led me to choose to perform one series of actions instead of another.

Anyway, it appears to me that Occam's Razor suggests that I want to perform a given action because I anticipate desirable consequences is a simpler solution than there's some invisible, unquantifiable dimension to reality which predetermines my actions while allowing me to perceive them as consequences of my own will.

I'm sure questions like "do we have free will" are big-time popular with philosophers. I just don't see how they're relevant to day-to-day life.

[Kanastrous]

oh - sorry for the ghetto edit, again -

I take responsibility for my own decisions, actions, and the consequences proceeding from them. From my perspective, responsibility means ownership means power.