Two questions about capital ships

[JointStrikeFighter]

Please elaborate. I may have oversimplified somewhat but generally there IS a huge gap between tactical aircraft and strategic bombers with there currently not being any aircraft in-between.

There are some in-between aircraft still; the F-111 and the Su-34 spring to mind.

Um-no. The Aardvark has been decommissioned and neither carries a significantly larger payload than other tactical aircraft. Not that that comes as a surprise what with the Su-34 being a Flanker variant and the Vark originally being intended for the role the F-14 wound up in, among others.

Except oh wait the F-111 is still in service with the Royal Australian Air Force and is one of ourmost potent assets. Besides which warload isnt the only way to measure role, the warload may not be larger but the effective combat range of the F-111 and Su-34 is signifigantly longer than more tactical fighters such as the F-15E.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Classically speaking, cruisers are the descendant of the frigate type, whose prime requirement was mobility. They have to be capable of largely independent deployment in both senses, that of getting to a place and looking after themselves once they're there.

With the technology available, this problem largely goes away. All ships can achieve high interstellar speed- the relative proportions between them are what matters now, and its hard to justify a cruiser designation on the strengths of that.

Destroyers were fleet escorts turned fleet attackers, largely because of the failure of early torpedo boats to keep the sea in a useful manner; the role in the missile age evolved back to heavy, open ocean fleet escort. Which, consdering that the Ticos basically do the same job- I'd call both of them destroyers and reserve the cruiser designation for a ship capable of independent deployment, like a Kirov or Long Beach.

I'd reckon that Star Destroyers are actually closer to the sailing frigate role than to either; open space, presence, dominance and intervention. Ambidextrous medium multirole.

Granted, they can be rushed to any trouble spot in short order, but I think the situation is primarily a volume problem. Say a dead- average sector with a thousand major systems (and how many inhabited rocks in each?), fifty thousand minor systems, four hundred million barren but exploitable.

With twenty-four fleet destroyers, they're going to be running around like headless chickens trying to keep track of all that lot. Each ship is going to have a patrol beat of 2,125 inhabited systems. Factor in shore time from mechanical casualties and other screwups, they can't possibly be in that many places at once. Not even the shadow of fear can.

I think the only way the deterrence and law enforcement mission can work is if the destroyers are kept on overwatch, and smaller, more numerous and more cheaply operated ships do the majority of the work. I do think the Imperial Starfleet's primary responsibility is defensive, not attack, simply because there are not that many rebels wandering loose out there and a whole galaxy to defend- not least from renegade Imperials.

The Carrack, in particular, is an interesting case, precisely because for this sort of duty, it's completely useless. One flight of fighters, on external racks, and 142 troops- a short company? Minimal intervention capability. On the other hand, fast, well armed and protected- there's the MTB, for anyone who insists on looking for one.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Mind you, 24 Imperial/Imperator-class Star Destroyers or equivalent is for a bare-bones sector, and does not include lesser Victory-class or Venator-class Star Destroyers. A sector like Naboo may be somewhat rustic, but its more like medium-sized city in the heartland than just a swathe of empty land. It could probably sport something more in the 36-40 range, and maybe earn a few Allegiance-types, equivalents, or even a few in the next larger class. Furthermore, they do not really have to patrol; they may remain on station as a fast reaction force and allow the actual system-by-system patrol craft and flights report and considering SW hyperdrive transit time, be there in only a few minutes. Its more like the way a dozen or fewer police squad cars can maintain watch over a community of thousands of domiciles easily. Except the ISD's response time will hopefully be better than the police, and considering jump duration, ought to be if the Moff keeps his crews trained for quick reaction and responsiveness.

[VT-16]

Allegiance-types

Pro-tip, slightly off-topic: I've actually found out that these ships were called Imperial-class Destroyers and Super Star Destroyers in the Dark Empire audio drama. That's right, Imperial-class Super Star Destroyers.

I'm not sure whether to wince at the lack of creativity or cheer for the fact that they had an actual name all this time. :P

[Illuminatus Primus]

Specifically the Allegiance itself, which is destroyed by the Emancipator? Well, obviously that's a terrible name and won't do at all; but another good reason to bury the Imperial-class designation. Clearly they just meant "Imperial-standard" or "Imperial-build".

I am going to continue calling them "Allegiance-types."

[VT-16]

Yep, they use the same words to describe both it and the Eclipse's escorts at the Battle of Pinnacle Base.

I agree it's lame as hell, but at least it's good against "lol SSD = Executors and Eclipse, and no other type exist, therefore they are rare".

[Illuminatus Primus]

Actually, its called a Super Star Destroyer in the comic, and its long been discussed that Super Star Destroyer is obviously not a discrete type since it includes Allegiance.

[VT-16]

Yes, but there's been arguments back and forth about the SSDs in general being rare or just "superweapons" instead of conventional ones. There's even been attempts at explaining away all art in the DE stories as "subjective" and that the Allegiance isn't the ship hit in the panel, but something off-screen. Even when both the comic, radio drama and sourcebook all depict the same thing: Fleet comes out of hyperspace, destroys SSD and escorts, then launches fighters.

When the escorts for the Eclipse are called Super Star Destroyers in the actual audio drama dialog, it's harder to ignore.

[Connor MacLeod]

That depends on what you take the context of "rare" to be. There are plenty of sources (DESB, Black fleet crisis, Cracken's Threat Dossier, the Starships of the Galaxy Saga edition) that all indicated that there were at least one (and in some cases more than one) "SSDs" (contexutally taken to mean Executors, esp in recent times) per sector - they served as command ships, after all. That's "rare" in a galactic scale (compared to ISDs and such) but not exactly "uncommon" (Like the Death Stars or Eclipse or Sovereigns, or possibly torpedo spheres.) That doesn't even cover the mobile groups like Death Squadron or Reaper Squadron or hte like, or additionally allocated resources (Like what the especially influential Moffs had).

I am also pretty sure it wouldn't include Clone War era gear - (Victories and VEnators were never apart of "Sector Groups" as I recall.) and given that the Empire still had some of those ships around (Thrawn was able to fairly easily reclaim some of them, at least) they would probably also have the bigger ships as well (Mandators and such.) MAybe they're relegated to backwaters, or in mothballs, or given as gifts (Palpy gave Rokur Gepta a decades old warship.) Even the ones mentioned as sold off probably were recoverable after some fashion (like the victories sold off to the CSA - Palpy had indirect control of them, so I am willing to bet that if he needed them, he could call them back.)

As an aside, the most recent source I can recall (the aforementioned Starships of the galaxy) also clarified ISDs as "cruisers" (and the Executors as being battleships/command ships, IIRC.) There's some really interesting tidbits in some of that, but also some goofy stuff (I see why Sarli was confident his "mass lightening" would get into canon, though I dont think it was as explicit as he might have hoped.)

[VT-16]

Oh, yeah, multiple sources to the contrary. I'm apparantly "reading them out of context", like it's another Bible discussion. As long as they pull out the in-universe subjectivity card, it's almost hopeless.

[Connor MacLeod]

Of course it is. Its like debating at Starfleet Jedi. They're not interested in evidence or logic or consistency or such scary things, they love "subjectivity" and "ambiguity" because then they can ignore or make up shit as they want. They're also huge hypocrites considering they attack other people (IE Curtis) for "ignoring canon" ( which they themselves go on to do... or defend others who do that.)

It doesn't change the facts though, or that continuity wise, you're still right. They just want to score rhetoric points usually or "Create doubt".

[VT-16]

Yeah, that's all there is. Though it is fun to be validated time and again, the newest being last years SOTG. For an RPG book, WOTC likes to put nice, fluffy tidbits in, even creating three new types of SSDs in the process. Which is what the Expanded Universe should be all about. (Being expansive, not creating SSDs all the time. ;P)

[Knife]

Yes, but there's been arguments back and forth about the SSDs in general being rare or just "superweapons" instead of conventional ones. There's even been attempts at explaining away all art in the DE stories as "subjective" and that the Allegiance isn't the ship hit in the panel, but something off-screen. Even when both the comic, radio drama and sourcebook all depict the same thing: Fleet comes out of hyperspace, destroys SSD and escorts, then launches fighters.

When the escorts for the Eclipse are called Super Star Destroyers in the actual audio drama dialog, it's harder to ignore.

[Han Solo] there's lots of command ships.[/Han Solo]

[VT-16]

Oh yeah, they got a surprisingly Saxton-like reply to that: "Speaking in an excited or stressed manner and thus not valid."

[Illuminatus Primus]

They actually say that? At least there is contextual and circumstantial reason to believe Super Star Destroyer is not a real classification; interpreting Ackbar's statement in such a manner is harmonizing. Such counterintuitive explanation should be done as a last resort; what service to reason or greater understanding does it serve to say that about Han's claim (which is not excited in the heat of battle) is like that, thus discarding information?

[VT-16]

Here's what the dicussion can be summed up as, even if they've stopped outright saying so:

Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!
Super-class Star Destroyers were 8km long and were only a handful and not common!

When you look through their poster history and their selective interpretation of sources, especially the WEG fawning and the ignorance of multiple classification systems as outlined in those very same sources and elaborated on in the Dorling Kindersley books, that's essentially the gist of their entire argument. Every single source, from the Dark Empire Sourcebook to the Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross-Sections is just bunk whenever they mention something these people don't approve of.

[Connor MacLeod]

They do that with firepower too, particulariyl BDZ type events. They'll nitpick which bits of WEG they like and which they don't, which is amusing.

Speaking of WEG, I ran across this tidbit awhile ago but forgot about it until recently.

The Kumauri Battleship, particularil the last series in the line, the Cal-class battleship, was a terror in its day due to its primary weapon - the huge mass driver slung over the main hull. The weapon tractored asteroids and other space debris into the rear end of the huge armoured cylinder and shot them at tremendous speed out the cannon at the front. In those days, shield technology was unable to stop this type of weapon. A well-aimed small asteroid could level an entire city, while a large asteroid could completely upset the ecological balance of the planet.

IIRC (I'd have to check) it requires an asteroid with a multi-TT KE yield to actually inflict any sortt of "global" enviormental/ecological damage, and this is for an outdated ship some 10 millenia old. Hell, by the game stats, that weapon was comparable in damage to ISD-2 and SSD TLs (as I remember.) and that doesnt even factor int he diff between a kinetic impactor and energy weapon.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, that's all there is. Though it is fun to be validated time and again, the newest being last years SOTG. For an RPG book, WOTC likes to put nice, fluffy tidbits in, even creating three new types of SSDs in the process. Which is what the Expanded Universe should be all about. (Being expansive, not creating SSDs all the time. ;P)

I wouldn't go that far. Some of the novel is quite nice. For example, they mention the following:

[quote="Starships of the galaxy Saga edition", page 56"]
Produced on a scale to match that of the clone troopers it was designed to carry, dozens of ships were crewed and ready to depart when Jedi Master Yoda arrived to mobilize an invasion force.[/quote]

I think the implications are obvious. There were "dozens" of Acclamators ready when Yoda brought the force to Geonosis. I don't have to say that this is nearly "double" the supposed "200,000" troops ready by other sources.

Further, it mensions that they were "produced on a scale to match that of the cloen troopers." We know from the old revised RPG book (with Ep2 info) that the Republic ordered at LEAST 1000 more acclamators after Geonosis (and there was the mention of other, bigger ships as well), which suggests at least 16 million clone troopers in addition to what they had at Geonosis. Hell, it also tells us that Acclamtors were designed to CARRY clone troopers, so all those times we saw Acclamtors (in the clone wars cartoon, lik ethe battle of muunilist) as well as the Essential Chronology reference of "hundreds of assault ships" it seems we could conclude they were carrying clones.

Ther'es also some interesting commentary on BDZ (they link CAamas to a BDZ and suggest an ISD could accomplish it.) They mention that "several" Acclamators could join together to BDZ a planet as well. It also mentions an Acclamator variant designed for bombardments that could "snuff out all life on a continent in the course of a few hours." And Acclamators were said to be less powerful than Victories or ISDs....

They also mention "thousands of gees" acceleration being common in space, as well as the whole "star-class" classification thing, which roughly follows what is outlined in the DK books (IE EXecutors are star dreadnoughts, ISDs are star cruisers, etc.)

I also like the addition of "shield-busting" torpedoes, linking suich weapons like the Torpedo pshere warheads to the T-33 Plasma torps from the Black Fleet crisis.

But then there's the bad stuff to balance the good stuff. For example:

Starships also have ion drives capable of increidble acceleration (thousands of times the force of gravity) due to a combination of exceptional thrust and manipulation of the starship's mass relative to that of its exhaust. In addition, repulsorlift drives are preferred for delicate manuvering during takeoff and landing; in fact, the mass manipulation that makes ion drives so efficient in deep space is markedly less efficient in atmosphere, so almost all starships use both drives in conjunction during atmospheric flight, particularily when near the surface of a planet."

This is evidently a supposed referencee to the made up "mass lightening" crap Sarli was trying to pass off awhile back. The only saving grace is that it doesn't call it "mass lightening" explicitly - mass manipulation can probably be interpreted in more than one way. But its still silly, and whats more its contrived (especially the "not working well in the atmosphere" bit.)

They also borrow the old RPG refrences to "fuel supplies"

For a starship of colossal or smaller size, refilling one day's worth of fuel (approximately one kg of fuel) costs about 50 credits. Larger starships are substantially more expensive: Multiply the cost by 100 for every size category above Colossal. A starship uses this much fuel after one day of flight in realspace or hyperspace, after one hour of flight in atmosphere or combat, or a single jump to lightspeed."

Its both self contradictory, its contradictory with other refrences (the Rogue Squadron novels mention hyperspace travel as being less fuel-intensive than realspace travel), and with basic math and science (the numbers dont work out even with the supposed "mass lightening" as pointed out before.) Moreover, it implies that a fighter, a light transport (like the falcon), a Corellian Corvette, and a ISD/Mon Cal ship all consume the same amount of fuel after a single day, irrespective of any considerations (reactor type, efficiency, what they do, etc.)

Moreover, they describe the Geonosian Starfighters as having been "clocked at over 20,000 km/h under optimal atmospheric coonditions, but effective manuvers are practically impossible at such speeds" - which is their way of rationalizing their "slower" ingame atmospheric speeds (they give the Geonosian starfighter a max velocity of only 1250 km/h)

Alot of the use of in-game stats are fairly unimaginative (for alot of the guns they divided the WEG stats by 5 or 10, usually), or so it seems. and they retain the ludicrously short combat ranges from the old RPG system.

Really, its all a mixed bag, like pretty much any EU source is.

[VT-16]

Yeah, it is a mixed bag. And with the new Essential Atlas and Complete Encyclopedia pt. II coming out, I'm getting increasingly worried any mention of Republic era ships bigger than ISDs will get cut down to size. It hopefully won't since there's the Lucrehulk as a clear counter-example and whatever ship Grievous is flying in the CW trailer, but you never know.