Countering Planetary Shielding

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well the first FTL/spacefaring-colonizing race will have an insurmountable exponential advantage. And the reason worlds are tiny is because WEG is dumb and couldn't model worlds as being any more sophisticated than one city and a couple farms.

[Havok]

My question is, if the capture of anyone is a key part of the mission, then why bombard at all? Even dialed all the way down, a SD's TL would, literaly, make water out of fucking ICE CAVES.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The shield generator is not immediately adjacent to the Echo Base, and furthermore, they obviously intended for it to be proof against ground assault; there's nothing to say it isn't reinforced or shielded locally. And the same could be said for the kiloton-range immolation of the shield generator by the AT-AT. We know long-range, low-yield, precision fire spacecraft weapons exist; presumably they would eliminate transports and the shield generator at a distance, then close and occupy the base directly with full space and air supremacy.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Swiftness? The galaxy was explored and colonized out to Csilla in the Unknown Regions pre-FTL. Hundreds of thousands of years of pre-FTL development.

Pre-FTL as a whole or just pre-hyperdrive specifically?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Swiftness? The galaxy was explored and colonized out to Csilla in the Unknown Regions pre-FTL. Hundreds of thousands of years of pre-FTL development.

Pre-FTL as a whole or just pre-hyperdrive specifically?

Csilla was colonized by sleeper ship colonists, so it was STL or extremely slow FTL. So was Mandalore by Taung refugees, Nemoidia by Duros, etc.

[Darth Ruinus]

Why say it that way, then? Why not present the options, destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders or waste time, lose the initiative, and risk casualties by landing and marching in. Given Vader's tendancy to kill people who displease him, I would let him make the hard stategic/political decision.

Because if I remember right, Vader doesnt let the guy even say anything, he sends him a communication and starts killing him outright. Besides, why would he present to option of "destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders" if that options may kill the leaders, something they dont want to do, since they wanted to capture them. And "risk casualties by landing" is probably acceptable to them if it means capturing Luke.

[Havok]

Why say it that way, then? Why not present the options, destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders or waste time, lose the initiative, and risk casualties by landing and marching in. Given Vader's tendancy to kill people who displease him, I would let him make the hard stategic/political decision.

Because if I remember right, Vader doesnt let the guy even say anything, he sends him a communication and starts killing him outright. Besides, why would he present to option of "destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders" if that options may kill the leaders, something they dont want to do, since they wanted to capture them. And "risk casualties by landing" is probably acceptable to them if it means capturing Luke.

No, Veers was done with his report. When Vader wouldn't let his finish was when he was trying to defend Ozzel's decision to try to surprise the rebels.

[Darth Ruinus]

No, Veers was done with his report. When Vader wouldn't let his finish was when he was trying to defend Ozzel's decision to try to surprise the rebels.

Oh yeah thats right. Still though, presenting the options is a bad idea, since IIRC, Vader's plan was to hit them from outside the sensor range. That Ozzel guy disregarded that and made his own plan. Vader would have killed him anyways for doing so.

[lordofFNORD]

Besides, why would he present to option of "destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders" if that options may kill the leaders, something they dont want to do, since they wanted to capture them. And "risk casualties by landing" is probably acceptable to them if it means capturing Luke.

Conceded. It is possible that the upper officers knew that capturing the leaders was so important that even suggesting a plan that killed them was pointless.

I still stand by the assertion that the plain words support the impenetrable shield theory.

[Ghost Rider]

Besides, why would he present to option of "destroy the shield from space and risk killing their leaders" if that options may kill the leaders, something they dont want to do, since they wanted to capture them. And "risk casualties by landing" is probably acceptable to them if it means capturing Luke.

Conceded. It is possible that the upper officers knew that capturing the leaders was so important that even suggesting a plan that killed them was pointless.

I still stand by the assertion that the plain words support the impenetrable shield theory.

That's why Vader said clean bombardment in the novel?

He wanted them alive. The shield made this proposition very unlikely given they would have to use overwhelming force to knock the shield down.

To say it's impenetrable is literally a no limits fallacy. And a gross lack of judgement when the novel states otherwise.

[lordofFNORD]

To say it's impenetrable is literally a no limits fallacy. And a gross lack of judgement when the novel states otherwise.

I don't mean literally impenetrable. I just mean what Illuminatus Primus said about a reasonable time bombardment by DEATHRON and any other forces that can be called in quickly (if there are any).

That's why Vader said clean bombardment in the novel?

I'm not sure. Turbolasers have been shown to be quite precise in other (though lower level) sources. Maybe they aren't, or the heavy turbolasers aren't, or something like that.

Maybe be he meant something else by clean. If bombardment would take a long time, it may give the rebels even more time to evacuate, especially since the blockading ships would be occupied with the bombardment. Or that return fire could cause problems. Or even politically "clean", meaning he'd need to call in additional support and thus lose face.

I don't see a whole lot to hang a hat on, either way. Two ambiguous lines of dialog, and the fact that a ground assault was preferable.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What Vader wanted to do was stand off beyond the edge of the system (hence, "Admiral Ozzel brought us out of lightspeed too close to the system") where the Rebels wouldn't see them or wouldn't see them immediately and precision strike the shield generator using their long-range sensors and the probe droid intel, then close and seize the planet with full superiority.

[Isolder74]

The shield generator is not immediately adjacent to the Echo Base, and furthermore, they obviously intended for it to be proof against ground assault; there's nothing to say it isn't reinforced or shielded locally. And the same could be said for the kiloton-range immolation of the shield generator by the AT-AT. We know long-range, low-yield, precision fire spacecraft weapons exist; presumably they would eliminate transports and the shield generator at a distance, then close and occupy the base directly with full space and air supremacy.

I'm not even sure that they were even finished setting up the base yet. As such we can't be completely sure how the generators would have been fully defended.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What? The power core is kilometers beneath the ice and bedrock from the ion cannon. I think their military engineering capabilities are robust. If they can deploy a theater shield to block out at least Executor and five one-mile Star Destroyers (and probably considerably more) and field a surface-to-space artillery piece capable of mission killing a one-mile Star Destroyer, I think the base is not likely to just melt from stray bolts.

Again, the generator-kill blast was probably kiloton-yield; these nuclear-level event did not level or melt the base that we saw.

[PainRack]

What? The power core is kilometers beneath the ice and bedrock from the ion cannon. I think their military engineering capabilities are robust. If they can deploy a theater shield to block out at least Executor and five one-mile Star Destroyers (and probably considerably more) and field a surface-to-space artillery piece capable of mission killing a one-mile Star Destroyer, I think the base is not likely to just melt from stray bolts.

Again, the generator-kill blast was probably kiloton-yield; these nuclear-level event did not level or melt the base that we saw.

The explosion caused a couple of corridors to collapse, cutting off access to Leia transport.

[Illuminatus Primus]

What? The power core is kilometers beneath the ice and bedrock from the ion cannon. I think their military engineering capabilities are robust. If they can deploy a theater shield to block out at least Executor and five one-mile Star Destroyers (and probably considerably more) and field a surface-to-space artillery piece capable of mission killing a one-mile Star Destroyer, I think the base is not likely to just melt from stray bolts.

Again, the generator-kill blast was probably kiloton-yield; these nuclear-level event did not level or melt the base that we saw.

The explosion caused a couple of corridors to collapse, cutting off access to Leia transport.

Right; shock is more of a threat than heat transfer. The place isn't about to melt. It is a GHQ for an armed insurrection.

[Havok]

Princess Leia's heater melted her quarters.

[Cykeisme]

Well..... that really depends. The problem is environmental. How long could planetary shields be turned on without affecting ecology? Afterall, you're creating a shield that alters radiation and prevents impacts, if the shield is set too low in the atmosphere, you're going to alter air movements. There's also the issue of radiation and heating of the planet and whether the shield may act as a greenhouse effect.


Also, its also mentioned that shields are expensive and slow to raise, that suggest that there may be excessive waste heat and a large energy consumption. A steady bombardment , even if it doesn't penetrate the shield will also cause steady energy loss from moving heat out of the system and dumping it into space, so, power supplies may be another issue. Any planet with the wealth to maintain planetary shields will most probably not be energy self sufficient, especially when this is coupled with wartime necessities such as the need to power turbolasers and etc.

Star Wars shielding systems dump the waste heat built up in their heat sinks as neutrinos, re-radiating the energy away.
Of course, as well as a limit to the rate at which a shield can safely shunt incoming weapon energy into the heat sinks, there's also a limit to the rate at which it can be bled away as neutrinos. Since shielding systems are known to fail if they are bombarded repeatedly over time, this is presumably because the latter rate is typically lower than the former; eventually the heat sinks become full, the shield system can no longer safely absorb more energy.

Presumably, the systems that are capable of shunting away teratons of energy can also easily control the temperature of the environment below. This is, of course, if we assume that a world that can afford a full planetary shield can also afford climate control (like Coruscant's weather control).

Hence, in order to cause heat buildup on the planet surrounded by a shield, there's no easy way around it; you still have to dump enough energy to overwhelm their planetary shielding system.

[Warsie]

If you're questioning why the Empire had no repulsorcraft at Hoth, it would appear that you need to be physically grounded in order to pass through, since the TradeFed's AAT's and MTT's ceased to move through the Gungan's shield until a highpower blaster shot knocked out the generators on those Fambaa's.

Wasn't the shield only covering the air above the base in a wall or slightly-curves structure?

And Galactic Battlegrounds, Empire At War and Force Commander does have repulsorcraft passing through shielding.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Shields are volumetric; although they do have a "surface" or "edge" they also occupy space; the theater shield may interfere with repulsorlift systems while active, deaccelerate the thrust stream of ion engines, or may damage directly "ungrounded" vehicles.

I would consider the game examples apocryphal or examples of different shielding types.

[BountyHunterSAx]

Shields are volumetric; although they do have a "surface" or "edge" they also occupy space; the theater shield may interfere with repulsorlift systems while active, deaccelerate the thrust stream of ion engines, or may damage directly "ungrounded" vehicles.

I would consider the game examples apocryphal or examples of different shielding types.

In that case, how were the fighters piloted by the rebels operating? Does the shield selectively interfere with only the enemies' repulsorlifts?

-AHMAD

[Illuminatus Primus]

Possibly. I am stating ways it may interfere. The most important aspects would be thrust-stream abation (particle shields function by deaccelerating impactors and particles), and the "grounding" problem - which presumably effects craft moving through the perimeter of the shield; ungrounded vehicles can fly both within and without but not across.

[Swindle1984]

Shields are volumetric; although they do have a "surface" or "edge" they also occupy space; the theater shield may interfere with repulsorlift systems while active, deaccelerate the thrust stream of ion engines, or may damage directly "ungrounded" vehicles.

I would consider the game examples apocryphal or examples of different shielding types.

In that case, how were the fighters piloted by the rebels operating? Does the shield selectively interfere with only the enemies' repulsorlifts?

-AHMAD

They were already inside the shield and didn't physically interact with it. Duh.

[avatarxprime]

Shields are volumetric; although they do have a "surface" or "edge" they also occupy space; the theater shield may interfere with repulsorlift systems while active, deaccelerate the thrust stream of ion engines, or may damage directly "ungrounded" vehicles.

I would consider the game examples apocryphal or examples of different shielding types.

In that case, how were the fighters piloted by the rebels operating? Does the shield selectively interfere with only the enemies' repulsorlifts?

-AHMAD

Wasn't there a comment in the movie about finishing modifications to the speeders? It's highly possible that the rebel engineers figured out some work around regarding that issue.

Regarding the bombardment issue, ISDs have proven capable of highly precise targeting in the EU. Vader would most likely want to knock out any and all defensive emplacements the Rebels had so that they could easily storm in and capture anyone they want with relative impunity.

[Imperial Overlord]

Wasn't there a comment in the movie about finishing modifications to the speeders?

That was cold weather adaption. It hadn't finished at the time Han went looking for Luke, which is why he had to do it on a taunton.