Russia has officially notified China that production of the new Chinese strike-jet J11B means breaching the previous agreements due to this aircraft being a copy of the Russian SU-27SK. Moscow fears that in perspective China might start export of their strike-jets and oust Russia from the world weapons market.
In 1996 China and Russia made an agreement according to which China was supposed to assemble 200 SU-27SK aircraft (local name J-11) in Shenyang. However, the production of licensed J-11/SU-27SK was halted in November 2004 after China had received 95 (105 – according to another version) aircraft kits. Officially the Chinese party explained its withdrawal from the agreement with “limited operational capabilities” of J-11/SU-27SK.
Nevertheless, in 2007 China demonstrated the first models of J11B aircraft that were almost a precise copy of SU-27SMK. If believe the Chinese press, these aircraft 90% consist of China-made components. However, at the official level China did not notify Russia about their intentions to “upgrade” SU-27SK. That became a reason for the Russian aircraft manufacture experts to consider the Chinese aircraft to be a pirate copy of the Russian strike-jets.
Source - rosbalt.ru
Is China paying licensing fees for the J-11B variants of the Su-27? If not, then the Russians have a case. If they ARE, then it sounds like the Russians whining that a customer is doing things to items they ALREADY PAID FOR.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
Sidewinder wrote:
Is China paying licensing fees for the J-11B variants of the Su-27? If not, then the Russians have a case.
?
Nope, that’s what the whole issue is; Sukhoi only sold a license to locally assemble 200 aircraft. It did agree to help increase the portion of local components, but it did not grant license to actually go and build additional aircraft that way. The Chinese wont pay licensing fees because they claim the work amounts to a new product, but that’s clearly not true. China has done the same thing with several other weapons systems, and its done worse with just outright stealing systems without ever even trying to work out a production agreement too, Russia should have seen this coming, and they probably did.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Moscow fears that in perspective China might start export of their strike-jets and oust Russia from the world weapons market.
Oh please, which dumbass country is going to buy J-11Bs over an Su-30MK or Su-35? Pakistan, maybe? Ooooh, what a huge loss.
The aviation community has known about the Chinese J-11B for years - I don't know what reason Russia has for giving the "official notification" now, but I don't see what difference it makes - let the Chinese start new production of a practically 30-year-old airframe - with their early-block-F-16-equivalent J-10, they're well positioned to market arms to third world shit-holes. Something to be real proud of
I’d expect Russia was waiting to see if the plane would actually get approved for production before making a stink (no sense making a fuss over something that flops), and also they no doubt wanted to see just how Chinese it would really be. For a long time China was still going to use Russian engines on the J-11B, meaning that Russia had no real reason to object to the plane, they’d still get money out of it. IIRC the J-11B may still not yet have flown with the Chinese AL-31 clone installed. As for export sales, right now Chinese planes are a joke, but that may not be true in the future and this thing might be around along time if it reaches mass production.
Anyway, I don’t see much coming from this. China will build the plane if it wants to or not, and Russia will keep selling China weapons even if they can’t work out an agreement for royalties.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Moscow fears that in perspective China might start export of their strike-jets and oust Russia from the world weapons market.
Oh please, which dumbass country is going to buy J-11Bs over an Su-30MK or Su-35? Pakistan, maybe? Ooooh, what a huge loss.
The aviation community has known about the Chinese J-11B for years - I don't know what reason Russia has for giving the "official notification" now, but I don't see what difference it makes - let the Chinese start new production of a practically 30-year-old airframe - with their early-block-F-16-equivalent J-10, they're well positioned to market arms to third world shit-holes. Something to be real proud of
Well china is more captialistic than the US in some areas. Their ideas of captialism is bascially don't give a damn how low our reputation is, we just want to earn some money and sell things.
As long they recieved some money, they are pretty happy.
Moscow fears that in perspective China might start export of their strike-jets and oust Russia from the world weapons market.
Oh please, which dumbass country is going to buy J-11Bs over an Su-30MK or Su-35? Pakistan, maybe? Ooooh, what a huge loss.
The aviation community has known about the Chinese J-11B for years - I don't know what reason Russia has for giving the "official notification" now, but I don't see what difference it makes - let the Chinese start new production of a practically 30-year-old airframe - with their early-block-F-16-equivalent J-10, they're well positioned to market arms to third world shit-holes. Something to be real proud of
I bet you own stock in Shenyang Aircraft Corporation, don't you? Don't lie, I'm on to you!
Given the title of the thread, I thought this was going to be about somthing much cooler.
On topic though, China failing to keep it's promises is a depressingly familier tune. They are riding high on new prosperity and nationalism right now, but if they don't learn to keep their word they're going to run out of people willing to deal with them real quick.
Post 666: Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:51 am
Post 777: Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:49 pm
Post 999: Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 am
Given the title of the thread, I thought this was going to be about somthing much cooler.
On topic though, China failing to keep it's promises is a depressingly familier tune. They are riding high on new prosperity and nationalism right now, but if they don't learn to keep their word they're going to run out of people willing to deal with them real quick.
Sadly, honesty is something rare among business types in China. Getting cheated is quite common.
STGOD: Byzantine Empire Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
Vympel wrote: let the Chinese start new production of a practically 30-year-old airframe - with their early-block-F-16-equivalent J-10, they're well positioned to market arms to third world shit-holes. Something to be real proud of
Given that they are willing to sell arms to Zimbabwe, I don't think they care who they sell it to, as long as they get paid.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Why does that strike you as odd? They require far more intelligence and hard work to design than a fucking 3-minute pop song, and everyone knows those damned things are copyrighted.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
I doubt the J-11B will ever be exported, since the PLA has a huge demand for those aircraft, and by the time they're done buying them from Shenyang, Russia will be marketing PAK-FA.
Incidentally, the WS-10A is more western influenced than anything else.
Turns out that a five way cross over between It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, the Ali G Show, Fargo, Idiocracy and Veep is a lot less funny when you're actually living in it.
mr friendly guy wrote:
Given that they are willing to sell arms to Zimbabwe, I don't think they care who they sell it to, as long as they get paid.
That's exactly my point. Zimbabwe. Not exactly the pinnacle of the world arms market.
Well my point is are they expecting to out compete the major arm dealers in the near future, or are they just trying to get extra cash?
If its the latter it shouldn't bother them too much they aren't selling to the pinnacle of the world arms market.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Why does that strike you as odd? They require far more intelligence and hard work to design than a fucking 3-minute pop song, and everyone knows those damned things are copyrighted.
Because, at least in the US things where the form is inseparable from the function cannot be copyrighted, with a few exceptions (certain types of architecture, boat hulls, computer code). Generally speaking, a product of engineering is not usually not copyrightable.
However, there are other IP protections than copyright, and the license agreement that allowed Chinese production probably had included an agreement to not do this. Given that the production is "breaching previous agreements" I would guess that is the source of the complaint.
Generally speaking, a product of engineering is not usually not copyrightable.
Even as it has far more right to be protected against theft?
You do the calcs. You run tests. In supersonic test tubes which cost shitloads of money. You build test types. You spend billions on R&D. Fucking billions.
Then along comes a dude and takes all your calculations and drawings. Then his costs are limited to building test types of his "clone" fighters, and actual serial fighters.
Now how the fuck does that look? When one pop star takes a shitty tune from another one, a big fuss is raised. As if that fucking tune cost billions of dollar to make. It didn't. A fighter frame did.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
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Generally speaking, a product of engineering is not usually not copyrightable.
Even as it has far more right to be protected against theft?
-snip-
I didn't say it was the best solution. I said that's the way the law works.
That's also why there are trade secrets laws. Stealing the plans, or getting an engineer to violate an NDA is illegal. If this were two US companies, then it would probably be illegal (or they could sue the lawyer who wrote the license agreement for malpractice), but on trade secrets and/or breach of contract grounds, not copyright.
The major difference is that reverse engineering is legal, but that's pretty clearly not what happened here.
I just remembered Tupolev's reverse-engineering of a Boeing B-29 to create the Tu-4 Bull. As criminal as the Chinese aerospace industry is in this case, some might claim it's poetic justice.
Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.
They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
The major difference is that reverse engineering is legal, but that's pretty clearly not what happened here.
Of course. Since reverse-engineering is, you know, actually different from just stealing all required info to produce it with no effort.
Some people don't understand that production papers, production process and calculations data are far more valuable.
If you reverse-engineer something from a hull of a device you aquired, that's far harder compared to when you just have witnessed the entire production process and R&D and then steal it all.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Stas Bush wrote:If you reverse-engineer something from a hull of a device you aquired, that's far harder compared to when you just have witnessed the entire production process and R&D and then steal it all.
Exactly. That's why it's important to note that airplane design is NOT protected by copyright, which provides absolute protection, reverse-engineering notwithstanding.
There are important, substantive differences between the protection afforded by trade secrets, copyright, and patent; that's why I was correcting people. Though, in retrospect, I could have been more clear.
Stas Bush wrote:Some people don't understand that production papers, production process and calculations data are far more valuable.
I suppose it's possible that all those actually are copyrightable, in certain circumstances. If that's what you thought I meant be "a product of engineering", I apologize for lack of clarity, I meant the final product, physical product (the airplane or whatever).
Of course. Since reverse-engineering is, you know, actually different from just stealing all required info to produce it with no effort.