SW Economics and extras

[Omeganian]

Has it been pointed out yet that Qui-gon or Obi-wan could have come back later and freed Anakin's mom, or any of the other slaves, and yet they didn't?

There is an interesting text in Russian about that (as well as some other drawbacks of the Republic and Jedi). I put that element in a small fic of mine. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

[NecronLord]

And what if the Hutts retaliate for the incursion by raiding a Republic ship and enslaving fifty people? (Not that I'm against crushing the Hutts, but it's worth noting that people in universe have to live with the consequences - do the thing right, or not at all.)

[Shroom Man 777]

Why would anyone want to waste money uplifting and developing a shitty desert planet nobody gives a fuck about? I wouldn't.

[NecronLord]

It's worth noting that Luke was not far from able to afford to outright buy a ship capable of getting to a core world such as Alderann. Yeah, the people there are poor and humble, but there's nothing suggesting mass disease or starvation on that planet. His family owned at least two speeders, and an armed air/space craft. They had freedom of movement that Bill Gates can only dream of, as well as college opportunities - if it weren't for the Tuskens and Stormtroopers, I wouldn't mind living on that farm.

[Omeganian]

Why would anyone want to waste money uplifting and developing a shitty desert planet nobody gives a fuck about? I wouldn't.

For some people, there exists a thing called "morals". For others, there is another thing called "investing in potential markets", which would explain why so many planets took the TF side.

[Ghost Rider]

Why would anyone want to waste money uplifting and developing a shitty desert planet nobody gives a fuck about? I wouldn't.

For some people, there exists a thing called "morals". For others, there is another thing called "investing in potential markets", which would explain why so many planets took the TF side.

And you still do not answer the fucking question.

1. Morals here would also apply. Why the fuck would you take away resources from areas you can help better, into a shit hole?

2. The Trade Federation didn't invest into potential markets as much as CORNER the fucking market.

So again, learn something about supply and demand, you ignorant bitch.

[Omeganian]

1. Morals here would also apply. Why the fuck would you take away resources from areas you can help better, into a shit hole?

2. The Trade Federation didn't invest into potential markets as much as CORNER the fucking market.

So again, learn something about supply and demand, you ignorant bitch.

What was the exact proportion between the population of the developed and the backward worlds? If the latter were few enough, there could easily have been the possibility to help everyone. When the DS 1 and 2 were built, there is no mention of the galactic economics suffering any major crisis.

[NecronLord]

Nor are the people on Tatooine desperately poor. If the Lars family sold the two other vehicles we know about they'd probably get at least six thousand credits. Almost enough for a proper starship.

[Ghost Rider]

1. Morals here would also apply. Why the fuck would you take away resources from areas you can help better, into a shit hole?

2. The Trade Federation didn't invest into potential markets as much as CORNER the fucking market.

So again, learn something about supply and demand, you ignorant bitch.

What was the exact proportion between the population of the developed and the backward worlds? If the latter were few enough, there could easily have been the possibility to help everyone. When the DS 1 and 2 were built, there is no mention of the galactic economics suffering any major crisis.

Gee, guess that means it's within their fucking limits of military spending.

You still are presenting an ignorance that borders on a second grader's stupidity. All these projects are within their budgets to maintain and improve their political spheres. Upgrading the backwaters may not be and you've yet to present EVIDENCE otherwise, fucktard.

[Zixinus]

For some people, there exists a thing called "morals". For others, there is another thing called "investing in potential markets", which would explain why so many planets took the TF side.

What is there to invest on Tatooine? Sand? Criminals? What is there to invest in? Is there anything in the solar system or the planet that has anything to offer, to be worth investing in?

If the souther African shitholes would magically stabilise, those countries have natural resources that can land them a good spot in the world market. What does Tatooine has to offer?

When the DS 1 and 2 were built, there is no mention of the galactic economics suffering any major crisis.

Yes, but the DS 1 and 2 had a purpose: an enormous battle station with a planet-blowing gun.

[Ender]

And you still do not answer the fucking question.

1. Morals here would also apply. Why the fuck would you take away resources from areas you can help better, into a shit hole?

this statement makes no sense.

2. The Trade Federation didn't invest into potential markets as much as CORNER the fucking market.

Fundamental misunderstanding of the economy of SW, and an incorrect statement. The TF did invest in local markets, they built their own starports that they traded through. By investing in there and creating a source of capital it primed the pump for the local economy, while at the same time helping them corner the market.

So again, learn something about supply and demand, you ignorant bitch.

New Ithor
New Alderaan
Endor
Hognor
Tarsis
Deyer
Telos IV
Alamas
Kuat
Ronika
Every single world devestated in the Yuuzhan Vong War....

Oh, sorry, just listing off the top of my head all the places that they terraformed or rebuilt. Supply and demand isn't the issue. Kamino was able to secure sufficient biomass to create and sustain a galactic sized army without causing any fluctuations in the market that would tip anyone off. Hell, Palpatine's plan to oust Valorum was to tie him with corrupt investing in the development of the outer systems. Stating supply and demand is the issue when there are thousands of projects to point to showing that suply isn't the issue (and the technology like droids showing that even if it was it could swiftly be overturned) shows either a gross oversimplification about economics or a failure to examine the evidence.

The issue is that they have a mercantile system as the basis for their economy instead of full blown capitalism. And mercantilism is built on screwing over the poor.

[Darth Wong]

Why would anyone want to waste money uplifting and developing a shitty desert planet nobody gives a fuck about? I wouldn't.

For some people, there exists a thing called "morals".

What is the moral imperative to develop a remote, sparsely populated planet?

For others, there is another thing called "investing in potential markets", which would explain why so many planets took the TF side.

Do you understand why we do not build strip malls in Antarctica? It's not because we can't. It's because in order to have a potential new market, you need to have a lot of people living there. In case you didn't notice, people are few and far between on Tatooine.

What we have here is a planet without a large population, without valuable natural resources, without even plentiful supplies of basic substances such as water. What the fuck is the rationale for developing it? They want to build giant cities on Tatooine full of super-condominiums that will stand empty for thousands of years, waiting for tourists from the Core who want to see desert and Banthas?

[Darth Wong]

Stating supply and demand is the issue when there are thousands of projects to point to showing that suply isn't the issue (and the technology like droids showing that even if it was it could swiftly be overturned) shows either a gross oversimplification about economics or a failure to examine the evidence.

What a load of horseshit. Supply is always an issue except in some retarded utopian fantasy where costs literally drop to zero. The fact that they would repair damaged planets means they can afford to do so. It does not mean that it would necessarily be worthwhile even in the complete absence of any incentive to do so. Saying "droids therefore infinite supply!" is no more intelligent than Trekkies saying "replicators therefore infinite supply".

[Junghalli]

It's worth noting that Luke was not far from able to afford to outright buy a ship capable of getting to a core world such as Alderann. Yeah, the people there are poor and humble, but there's nothing suggesting mass disease or starvation on that planet. His family owned at least two speeders, and an armed air/space craft. They had freedom of movement that Bill Gates can only dream of, as well as college opportunities - if it weren't for the Tuskens and Stormtroopers, I wouldn't mind living on that farm.

Yeah, I was thinking to myself that while Tatooine may be poor by SW standards it doesn't really seem to be all that horrible a place. Luke's adoptive family seemed to have a pretty decent standard of living. It's not like we're talking about a North Korea-like hellhole with mass famines here.

[Ender]

What a load of horseshit. Supply is always an issue except in some retarded utopian fantasy where costs literally drop to zero.

You are both misrepresenting what I said, and applying the wrong ideas.

I didn't say supply wasn't the issue as a blanket economic statement. I said supply wasn't the issue here because the real issue keeping the remote economies depressed was that their system is mercantilism writ large. To offer an analogy, yes, having herpes is always an issue. But when you have been shot you have more pressing issues, so who gives a fuck about herpes.

And as a result, yes supply is not much of an issue - the laws of supply and demand are part of classical economics, not part of mercantilism. The mercantile system strives to always have a positive balance of trade everywhere. For that to happen you need to export no matter what, so production is ramped up with no regards to consumption. This results in a huge surplus, which is exactly what we see.

The production aspects of supply clearly are not an issue in Star Wars - droids see to it that everyone can do that by driving down the cost of raw materials and labor. The surplus in the galactic market is such that private individuals can afford to grow, feed, and supply a galactic scale army and this consumption of resources did not even show up on the edge of statistical significance to anyone analyzing the market. It took the simultaneous construction of the DSII and a massive ramp up in fleet construction by the Empire to start to trigger shortages of specific metals. Hell, these people unleash self replicating factories and pave over whole planets with assembly lines. The goal is production, and it easily outstrips demand. Which gives you the surplus I covered earlier.

The law of supply and demand is correct and applies to any efficient economic system. Mercantilism is not an efficient economic system, it is a broken one, one that is in part based on rejecting the law of supply and demand, which is why it was replaced by classical economics, where the law of supply and demand would apply.

I offer no justification for why they use this system. Only the observation that what we have seen of their economy matches its traits. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The fact that they would repair damaged planets means they can afford to do so. It does not mean that it would necessarily be worthwhile even in the complete absence of any incentive to do so.

The fact that it is was a major plot point in Cloak of Deception. It was the justification Palpatine supplied for taxing the megacorporations in exchange for easing weapons restrictions. It let him wrap himself in the idea of him being a reformer who was looking out for the little people out on the Rim while at the same time: ousting his opponent, increasing the treasury he would use to fund the war, arming his proxies, inflaming more dissatisfaction with the Senate, and not actually doing any real reform. That this interfered with the trade practices in the Rim worlds and hurt the profit margins for the megacorporations is what got the Trade Federation to blockade Naboo.

Saying "droids therefore infinite supply!" is no more intelligent than Trekkies saying "replicators therefore infinite supply".

I didn't say that supply was infinite, I said it wasn't the issue, but that mercantilism was. This is a wholly different statement then saying supply is infinite.

[Darth Wong]

What a load of horseshit. Supply is always an issue except in some retarded utopian fantasy where costs literally drop to zero.

You are both misrepresenting what I said, and applying the wrong ideas.

How so? You said that supply was not an issue in the SW galaxy and used various large expenditures as evidence.

I didn't say supply wasn't the issue as a blanket economic statement. I said supply wasn't the issue here because the real issue keeping the remote economies depressed was that their system is mercantilism writ large. To offer an analogy, yes, having herpes is always an issue. But when you have been shot you have more pressing issues, so who gives a fuck about herpes.

Saying "they have bigger problems" and saying "it's not an issue" are still two different things.

And as a result, yes supply is not much of an issue - the laws of supply and demand are part of classical economics, not part of mercantilism. The mercantile system strives to always have a positive balance of trade everywhere. For that to happen you need to export no matter what, so production is ramped up with no regards to consumption. This results in a huge surplus, which is exactly what we see.

The production aspects of supply clearly are not an issue in Star Wars - droids see to it that everyone can do that by driving down the cost of raw materials and labor. The surplus in the galactic market is such that private individuals can afford to grow, feed, and supply a galactic scale army and this consumption of resources did not even show up on the edge of statistical significance to anyone analyzing the market. It took the simultaneous construction of the DSII and a massive ramp up in fleet construction by the Empire to start to trigger shortages of specific metals. Hell, these people unleash self replicating factories and pave over whole planets with assembly lines. The goal is production, and it easily outstrips demand. Which gives you the surplus I covered earlier.

The law of supply and demand is correct and applies to any efficient economic system. Mercantilism is not an efficient economic system, it is a broken one, one that is in part based on rejecting the law of supply and demand, which is why it was replaced by classical economics, where the law of supply and demand would apply.

I offer no justification for why they use this system. Only the observation that what we have seen of their economy matches its traits. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Mercantilism is not an actual economic system; it's a theory about how economic systems work. You seem to believe that the presence of automated mass-production technology means that this theory loses its flaws and becomes valid in the Star Wars galaxy. I don't see how that follows at all, nor do I see the kind of strictly regulated trade and enforced monopolies that were characteristic of mercantilism, nor do I see how the mercantile assumption of fixed total output agitates for heavy expenditures on remote low-class settlements.

The fact that they would repair damaged planets means they can afford to do so. It does not mean that it would necessarily be worthwhile even in the complete absence of any incentive to do so.

The fact that it is was a major plot point in Cloak of Deception. It was the justification Palpatine supplied for taxing the megacorporations in exchange for easing weapons restrictions. It let him wrap himself in the idea of him being a reformer who was looking out for the little people out on the Rim while at the same time: ousting his opponent, increasing the treasury he would use to fund the war, arming his proxies, inflaming more dissatisfaction with the Senate, and not actually doing any real reform. That this interfered with the trade practices in the Rim worlds and hurt the profit margins for the megacorporations is what got the Trade Federation to blockade Naboo.

I haven't read that book. But at the end of the day, Tatooine went without these massive public-works programs, so it obviously didn't happen.

Saying "droids therefore infinite supply!" is no more intelligent than Trekkies saying "replicators therefore infinite supply".

I didn't say that supply was infinite, I said it wasn't the issue, but that mercantilism was. This is a wholly different statement then saying supply is infinite.

Your logic seems to be "production surplus = mercantilism". I don't see how that follows at all. All capitalist systems tend to produce a production surplus.

[Terralthra]

It's worth noting that Luke was not far from able to afford to outright buy a ship capable of getting to a core world such as Alderann. Yeah, the people there are poor and humble, but there's nothing suggesting mass disease or starvation on that planet. His family owned at least two speeders, and an armed air/space craft. They had freedom of movement that Bill Gates can only dream of, as well as college opportunities - if it weren't for the Tuskens and Stormtroopers, I wouldn't mind living on that farm.

Yeah, I was thinking to myself that while Tatooine may be poor by SW standards it doesn't really seem to be all that horrible a place. Luke's adoptive family seemed to have a pretty decent standard of living. It's not like we're talking about a North Korea-like hellhole with mass famines here.

Worth pointing out that the Tusken Raiders never appeared to encroach on the settlements in G-Canon. The only violence they committed was when Luke went into their lands after R2-D2. They were suspected of attacking the Jawa Landcrawler, but again, that was in the Jundland Wastes.

[Sam Or I]

Worth pointing out that the Tusken Raiders never appeared to encroach on the settlements in G-Canon. The only violence they committed was when Luke went into their lands after R2-D2. They were suspected of attacking the Jawa Landcrawler, but again, that was in the Jundland Wastes.

How did they get Anikin's mother?

[Ender]

How so? You said that supply was not an issue in the SW galaxy and used various large expenditures as evidence. Saying "they have bigger problems" and saying "it's not an issue" are still two different things.

I failed to communicate then, because that was my intent.

Mercantilism is not an actual economic system; it's a theory about how economic systems work.

The books I have vary on that - some say it is an early theory, others define it as a distinct system. Stupid soft sciences.

You seem to believe that the presence of automated mass-production technology means that this theory loses its flaws and becomes valid in the Star Wars galaxy.

Not at all - the system is still fucked, which is why the galaxy is such a shit hole. I simply note that the economic operations in the SW galaxy seem to match the way things were done in the 16th-18th century.

I don't see how that follows at all, nor do I see the kind of strictly regulated trade and enforced monopolies that were characteristic of mercantilism,

Serets of Naboo and some of the other prequel books provide an intersting insight as to how the economy works.

The Trade Federation built the starports used for trade on their worlds and only they used them. You could buy anything shipped in there, but only at Trade Federation prices (or the base price with a Trade Federation riase in price). If anyone else came in to deliver things they would meet with a ship or at a station at the systems edge and offload their goods to the ship in exchange for payment or cargo of equal worth. Said good where then shipped around by the Trade Federation. If your planet signed a letters patent giving the Trade Federation the right to represent you in the Senate they got better treatment as they were "preferred customers". If you tried to buy from someone other then them they enforced it with their army, but since they didn't carry everything there was a robust black market for the rest that smugglers provided. The Trade Federation tried to shoot down said smugglers.

That strikes me as a pretty heavily enforced monopoly there and tightly regulated trade. Buy from us because we kill you if you buy from someone else and we killed the other guys anyways.

EDIT: It occurs to me you may be speaking on a planetary scale. Allow me to clarify that I mean that mercantilism best describes what we see for the galactic economy, covering how the systems and sectors deal with each other. For the planets themselves we see every conceivable system under the sunn

nor do I see how the mercantile assumption of fixed total output agitates for heavy expenditures on remote low-class settlements.

That there was a surplus doesn't, the motivation from that is elsewhere. However that there is a surplus and monopolies keep the prices artificially high makes such expenditures so heavy (relative to what they should be otherwise) and works against it. That was my point.

The original question was "why haven't they invested in the backwaters to make them all nice" The answer provided was there was no demand to do so. Not true, as the Senate vote showed. But the issue of why private citizens haven't done it (as was also asked) is because the economic system is such that the prices are kept way higher then supply and demand sys they should be, so pretty much no one or no shithole planet can afford it.

I haven't read that book. But at the end of the day, Tatooine went without these massive public-works programs, so it obviously didn't happen.

Yes, stalling it out was part of Palpatine's plan. The point remains, that when he first proposed it there was sufficient motivation to get the bill passed in the Senate despite the corruption from the megacorporations against it.

Your logic seems to be "production surplus = mercantilism". I don't see how that follows at all. All capitalist systems tend to produce a production surplus.

No, my logic consisted of filling a notebook full of notes, defining traits between the notes, and then searching to see what era matched that, and then look and see what kind of system was used there. It was a pretty involved project, but being stuck on a boat for months on end gives you plenty of time to think. I covered this a little more clearly (I hope) in the economy thread in PSW, but here is a quik rehash.

Shitty writing of the EU has led to the closest match being mercantilism. We see them shipping around bullion and having governments control it, instead of having the credit being backed by the economy or something sensible. Which is excusable if computer security is so shitty that one can easily fuck with it to commit massive amounts of fraud (which again is seen in the EU) but doesn't change the fact that having a system based on a bullion standard controled by the government and increasing it through a positive balance of trade is a trait of mercantilism. We see that trade is regulated and monopolies enforced by the use of droid armies, again a trait of mercantilism. We see a robust black market and high demand for smugglers in said black market to provide goods and services that the monopolies do not provide. Again, a trait of mercantilism. We see production with no regards to demand to the point where quadrillions of new consumers appear out of nowhere and no one even notices because the surplus is so big - if supply and demand were in play they would seriously rock the boat. Again, consistent with mercantilism. There is an aristocratic crust to society that shares the notion that the lower classes need to be oppressed and that if they are not kept busy will not do anything - another trait of mercantilism. We see the megacorporaton engage in rent-seeking behavior when they get themselves letters patent to manipulate the legislature in their favor. We see letters patent used to cover privateers. Both part of mercantilism. The wealth of the galaxy is treated as a zero sum game because nothing is being imported, and such thinking was common in mercantilists.

And as the cherry on top, the lead proponent of the mercantile system was Thomas Mun, to whom it is likely Munns from AotC are referencing. (not really a valid point as we have the Invisible Hand, but I thought it was a neat easter egg)

Yes, some of these traits also appear in other systems as well. And the system is missing a few things we might expect in a mercantile system. But invoking those against it is playing the god of the gaps game - it doesn't explain all the things they share in common. The system that has the most of these traits match up is mercantilism, so my conclusion is that they are the same.


tl;dr version: I spent my winter vacation taking notes and comparing what was the closest to those notes.

[Terralthra]

Worth pointing out that the Tusken Raiders never appeared to encroach on the settlements in G-Canon. The only violence they committed was when Luke went into their lands after R2-D2. They were suspected of attacking the Jawa Landcrawler, but again, that was in the Jundland Wastes.

How did they get Anikin's mother?

Whoops, forgot about that one. Dialogue was that she'd gone out early to do something or other and they grabbed her on her way back.

The only way I'd try to rationalize it would be that maybe Lars' farm was more remote 30 years ago, closer to Tusken 'turf' and the inter-trilogy time gap pushed that frontier further out. That's just a silly theory though. You're right.

[Omeganian]

There are basically three questions about the aid to backward planets:

1) Could the rest of the SW Galaxy help them with their resources?

2) Was such help possible with the Old republic and its regime?

3) was such help desirable?

Somehow, I am getting a feeling the people here are mixing those questions up...

[Zixinus]

Oh for the love of god.... aren't we supposed to be talking about sci-fi writers and sense of scale?

1) Could the rest of the SW Galaxy help them with their resources?

Yes

2) Was such help possible with the Old republic and its regime?

Theoretically yes. We do not know about whether there are legal obstacles.

3) was such help desirable?

No. Tatooine was the equivalent of a remote, independent city-polis somewhere in "Space is an ocean" brainbug. There are no laws, therefore its a hotspot for the black market and black market hotspots don't want attention.

We don't even know whether Tatooine even has a government.

[Omeganian]

No. Tatooine was the equivalent of a remote, independent city-polis somewhere in "Space is an ocean" brainbug. There are no laws, therefore its a hotspot for the black market and black market hotspots don't want attention.

We don't even know whether Tatooine even has a government.

Lately, this discussion has been reminding me of this dialogue:

The Empiah is fah bettah off, with the Pewiphewy thwown upon its own wesoahces – as it is, moah oah less. They ahn't any good to us, y'know. Most bahbawous planets. Scahcely civilized."

"They were civilized in the past. Anacreon was one of the richest of the outlying provinces. I understand it compared favorably with Vega itself."

"Oh, but, Hahdin, that was centuwies ago. You can scahcely dwaw conclusion fwom that. Things wah diffewent in the old gweat days. We ahn't the men we used to be, y'know.

Foundation, Isaac Asimov



Of course with no help, Tatooine has some problems.

[Zixinus]

Of course with no help, Tatooine has some problems.

Possibly like the other 1000+ backwater or poor planets in the galaxy. The only reason its unique is that Anakin and Luke both grew up there and the writers of the books and movies were uncreative enough to be unable to make new worlds.

[Commander 598]

Tatooine is a dried up shithole because there's nothing there. NOTHING. Nothing but sand, failed mining outposts, a bunch of smelly and arguably primitive natives, and a bunch of old farts who either ended up too broke to leave, are hiding from something, or are the type of person who has one of those fetishes for trying to live in ungodly places. There's no population booms, all the kids get the hell out as soon as possible.

I "think" it's a stop along some trade route, but that's basically it aside from being a criminal hangout.

There's no reason to try and "help it", it's population is about 200k according to Wookiepedia. It would be like trying to aid in the development of a town with a population of less than 20 in the middle of America's western desert whose existence is directly related to a cattle ranch and being in the absolute ass end of nowhere for some residents.