O-Wing & C-Wing

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-23 09:52pm

Sorry, got involved in a heated debate next door with Spanky, who believes pencil work is far harder than CGI, which is easy and has no soul.

Here's the idea I had, I'd do something to the end pieces to make it look more complex and worthwhile, maybe the thrusters you mentioned for added manoueverability. As for the rocket packs, I'm thinking more a scaled down version of the LAAT, a little rack of missiles which can roll out and fire. Missiles are easy to animate nicely, it's the explosions that take skill. If this turns out ok I can do a little animation of it taking off and giving some ground target the message with a couple of missiles.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing8.jpg

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-23 09:55pm

So...how much time?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 10:15pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Sorry, got involved in a heated debate next door with Spanky, who believes pencil work is far harder than CGI, which is easy and has no soul.http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing8.jpg

Not harder, but more appreciable. And not just pencil, but all work done by hand.

That's all I'm saying here, except for nice job.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-23 10:17pm

Anyone who wants to follow up the CG vs hand-drawn argument is strongly encouraged to use the other thread. Posts added to this thread on that topic will the deleted without notice.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-23 11:07pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Sorry, got involved in a heated debate next door with Spanky, who believes pencil work is far harder than CGI, which is easy and has no soul.

Here's the idea I had, I'd do something to the end pieces to make it look more complex and worthwhile, maybe the thrusters you mentioned for added manoueverability. As for the rocket packs, I'm thinking more a scaled down version of the LAAT, a little rack of missiles which can roll out and fire. Missiles are easy to animate nicely, it's the explosions that take skill. If this turns out ok I can do a little animation of it taking off and giving some ground target the message with a couple of missiles.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing8.jpg

On the one hand I really like the wing cutout effect, on the other it seems too fussy/busy for such a small fighter. However I do have something else laying around that I think you would enjoy having to add that detail too.

For the missiles, they would have to be rockets, as torps are too large for the ship, But if you have something like this, then you have a a Magazine for your rockets with cutouts in the sides, to see them roll down into the launcher, a launch tube and if done properly it'll look like it's all part of the same blended pod design.

Sorry it took so long to answer, but I'm only looking on the Board at intervals as I do a mound of paperwork, so I seem to keep missing your posts until about an hour later.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-24 06:41am

Ignore my last post, I've had a brainwave fueled by 36 hrs without sleep and filling out paperwork. We can keep a cutout, have a Torp launcher and Don't have to add anything to the Weapons pods on the side.

This is a very crude drawing (I do any other kind?), with cutout in the top wing which mimics the wing shape, the rear part of the cutout is a scallop that gets shallower as it goes back (the shading was to suggest torp exhaust marks from launching), the Torp mag is still a horseshoe shape, but now the hotshoe it fits onto has a thick "sharks fin" feeder that reaches to the inner wing surface, the rear of the fin can have a long thin cutout to show th torp being fed up to it's launch point slightly above the wing (either a tray or claw pushing it up into position), and the short fat shape of the torp gives you a reason for a wide exit hole up top (thus allowing for a long, thin rear extension that mimics the wing shape overall).

I had it at the top, because the rear landing gear housings will be cluttering the bottom and this evens it out. You have the cutout you want and we don't have to overload the weapons pods with extra bits. Hopefully it should all balance out, design/looks wise.

Hope this all makes sense as I'm completely doggo at the minute (ignore the heavy scribbling out at the forward edge of the wing cutout, as I made it too long as I drew it.

).

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-24 08:50am

Hi Hemlock, sorry for the delay but even great men have to sleep occasionally.

I've been into CG stuff for about 3.5 years now, but only really been hammering away at lightwave for nearly 2. I got an ancient version of it from a friend and it just gripped me instantly. Here was a bastard of a program, but locked inside was the abiility to create sci-fi stuff like on the telly! So began the long love/hate relationship that's still running to this day, me trying to improve my skills and knowledge, Newtek by shifting the goalposts and bringing out updates and newer versions.

I'm completely self taught (didn't get manuals with it, although they're crap anyway) so i just really arsed around for the first year or so, then finally started buying training books and guides, as well as getting internet access to look through forums, etc. For the past few months I've been making a more serious effort to increase my skills with a view to perhaps turning semi-pro, but it's an ongoing thing.

That's part of the reason I help newbies as much as I can, as often as i can. I helped a guy to start Lightwave from scratch as he wanted to create lots of ships for a website he designed, and with lots of e-mails, live ICQ tutorial chats and a few pointers he became damned good within 3 months. Check my site for models by 'The Trekker' and you see the stuff he started making within a couple of months of getting the program. If I'd had a start like that I'd be working for George Lucas right now, instead of farting around for years slogging through it the hard way.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-24 09:00am

OK Rob, I'll have a quick redesign at it tonight and see if I can make some sense of what you're on about. I think I know what you mean, it's the mechanics of the launcher that are puzzling me a little. I love the idea of the top cutout and having the missiles launch through there, but I don't know about actually protruding anything through it. Might be better to have the missiles fire up at an angle of about 20 degrees and the curve down onto their targets, with the launcher stopping pretty close to the wing surface. Make for a smoother finish and better animations, I like curvy missile trails

I'll post a little animation when i get home to let you see a slowish missile trail in action.

As for the exhaust trail marks and such, these are the last details that go into models so don't worry about that. Weathering, markings, rust, etc are all added by skinning the surfaces with pictures I make in photoshop or Paint Shop Pro, but you need a finished model to know where all the vents and panels are to do it.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-24 01:17pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:OK Rob, I'll have a quick redesign at it tonight and see if I can make some sense of what you're on about. I think I know what you mean, it's the mechanics of the launcher that are puzzling me a little. I love the idea of the top cutout and having the missiles launch through there, but I don't know about actually protruding anything through it. Might be better to have the missiles fire up at an angle of about 20 degrees and the curve down onto their targets, with the launcher stopping pretty close to the wing surface. Make for a smoother finish and better animations, I like curvy missile trails I'll post a little animation when i get home to let you see a slowish missile trail in action.

I actually thought having it pop up would be easier for you, hence th suggestion, my original idea was something spookily similar to what you just suggested (the torp stops with its top level to the top of the wing, then the launcher releases it and gives it a push up. As it clears the wing, the engine ignites and the torp curves up and off after its target), so I'm fine with it.

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:As for the exhaust trail marks and such, these are the last details that go into models so don't worry about that. Weathering, markings, rust, etc are all added by skinning the surfaces with pictures I make in photoshop or Paint Shop Pro, but you need a finished model to know where all the vents and panels are to do it.

being awake too long made me have an attack of the artistics, I've since had a lie down and feel much better.

I'm going to be away until tomorrow evening, so I'll see you then. Once more, i can't tell you how much i appreciate the time your taking on this, thanks.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-24 01:39pm

No problem, I'll be working on it while you're away, I need the practice. On a lighter notee, here's a quick test animation I did some months ago to test out After Effects. It's a couple of my models attacking a bigger model I made with a model missile I made. The explosion is a scene I downloaded from somewhere, rendered and then comp'd in with After Effects. Not very good, just a muck-about really, but it lets you see a jinking missile trail.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Kameri_attack.avi

It's about 380k and in DivX format

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-24 01:44pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:No problem, I'll be working on it while you're away, I need the practice. On a lighter notee, here's a quick test animation I did some months ago to test out After Effects. It's a couple of my models attacking a bigger model I made with a model missile I made. The explosion is a scene I downloaded from somewhere, rendered and then comp'd in with After Effects. Not very good, just a muck-about really, but it lets you see a jinking missile trail.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Kameri_attack.avi

It's about 380k and in DivX format

I like those fighters (very Firefox), you should use them on a book cover prototype. And the missile deployment and track to target is spot on (except the torp comes out the top of the O-wing obviously).

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-24 05:55pm

That looks really cool, but you should add some lasers trying to shoot down the missle so that it looks like there is a reason why the missile is dodging around like that and not flying straight at the target.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-24 08:49pm

What is it with me? Am I broadcasting psychic energy of some description? You guys are pretty amazing, that was almost exactly the plan, to have gattling guns shooting at the missile to try and explain why it was jinking and why they were using something so relatively primitive as a missile (it was so smart it could think and dodge). Never got around to finishing this, I was testing the shielding system on the ship as well and lost the scene when everything crashed. I just gave it up as a bad lot, but still have those little bits of footage.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-25 07:41pm

There is no other reason why a missile would bounce around like that rather than fly straight to the target, unless the ship was moving around. The ship seems to be stationary and there were no anti-missile weapons present. A straight line is the most efficient course for the missile, so there had to be some reason why it was doing that.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-25 08:32pm

OK, back to the plot....

Update time. If you check out the picture below you'll see I've made the cutout for the rocket launcher and begun work on the launcher itself and the two weapons pods mounted either side of the wings. I've also begun work on an animation using the ship, basically a bit of a rip-off from AoTC. I need to make desert scenes anway for another project, so this is good practice. If you click the link you'll get a 1meg clip of the ship flying through a hilly desert scene on it's way to blow shit up.

Ignore the shaking, I was trying out a plugin that doesn't work, and check out the colouration. What I've done it let the first half look normal, and then altered the look of the second using settings in After Effects to make it look more like I remember AoTC. Let me know which is more popular and I'll do the final anim in that. There's a shitload of other problems, but they'll be fixed by the time the model is finally ready for use.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/canyonrun.avi

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-25 08:46pm

That's awesome. Right. Now. Quiz time.

I just got Lightwave. Where do I begin?

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-25 08:50pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:OK, back to the plot....

Update time. If you check out the picture below you'll see I've made the cutout for the rocket launcher and begun work on the launcher itself and the two weapons pods mounted either side of the wings. I've also begun work on an animation using the ship, basically a bit of a rip-off from AoTC. I need to make desert scenes anway for another project, so this is good practice. If you click the link you'll get a 1meg clip of the ship flying through a hilly desert scene on it's way to blow shit up.

Ignore the shaking, I was trying out a plugin that doesn't work, and check out the colouration. What I've done it let the first half look normal, and then altered the look of the second using settings in After Effects to make it look more like I remember AoTC. Let me know which is more popular and I'll do the final anim in that. There's a shitload of other problems, but they'll be fixed by the time the model is finally ready for use.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/canyonrun.avi

The second filter for the sand, makes it seem very late afternoon, but works well with the shadows. I like the alteranting engine flares as well.

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing9.jpg

Looking good, it's amazing how the addition of the Gunpods makes the whole thing more squat and purposeful. I was expecting the sides of the Cutout to be more squared rather than coming to a point, but it looks really good like that.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-25 09:12pm

OK, we'll go with equalized colours for the anim then. It was just me playing around with the settings and getting a colour that looked interesting, as long as you guys agree then we're away! I can alter the shape of the cut-out if you like, but it works OK as it is and I tried 3 other shapes/configurations before settling on this one. The guns and launcher are still just basic shapes, I need to start the serious detailing work tomorrow, along with the texturing. Once that's done in a few days time I can load up the finished model in place of the one used now and render out the animation.

Oh, by the way, the engine flares are there all the time, it's just you can't see them from odd angles because of the slats.

Hemlock, if you'd be so good as to send me a mail at kenny7@tiscali.co.uk we can get you started on something. Be aware this is NOT easy, it will take a bit of effort and time on your part to grasp this, so best start expeimenting now! Let me know what stuff you have managed so far, what you want to try and do and if you have an ICQ or MSN Messenger address for me to contact you. I'll send simple scenes and objects and talk you through it. We'll know pretty soon if you're a buttnutt or a budding Lucasfilm employee.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-25 09:20pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:OK, we'll go with equalized colours for the anim then. It was just me playing around with the settings and getting a colour that looked interesting, as long as you guys agree then we're away! I can alter the shape of the cut-out if you like, but it works OK as it is and I tried 3 other shapes/configurations before settling on this one. The guns and launcher are still just basic shapes, I need to start the serious detailing work tomorrow, along with the texturing. Once that's done in a few days time I can load up the finished model in place of the one used now and render out the animation.

Oh, by the way, the engine flares are there all the time, it's just you can't see them from odd angles because of the slats.

Cool, and Like I said, th cutout looks fine.

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Hemlock, if you'd be so good as to send me a mail at kenny7@tiscali.co.uk we can get you started on something. Be aware this is NOT easy, it will take a bit of effort and time on your part to grasp this, so best start expeimenting now! Let me know what stuff you have managed so far, what you want to try and do and if you have an ICQ or MSN Messenger address for me to contact you. I'll send simple scenes and objects and talk you through it. We'll know pretty soon if you're a buttnutt or a budding Lucasfilm employee.

Well from your other comments on tutoring others, it sounds like you need some time to do it right. Perhaps it might be best to give the O-wing a rest while you give Hemlock the time he needs.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-26 07:32am

Nah, not a problem, it won't be anywhere near taxing at first, just a few minutes here and there. Making still pictures is the easiest thing to start on at first, assuming you know how to set up cameras and lights to suit yourself. You just download someones models, place the lights and camera around it and render away. Learning to animate is another step up from that, but the mechanics of it are fairly easy to grasp, it's learning to model that takes the time.

Lightwave is in two parts, the animation/rendering engine and the model making program. Learning how to use the model maker well is probably the hardest thing in Lightwave, but it's very rewarding to see your own designs take shape. Like you, I can't draw worth a toss but still have funky ideas I'd love to see zipping around, so I pretty much just spent all my time modelling rather than animating or making pictures. The other thing you learn when modelling is that you spend nearly as much time in paint programs as making the model, since you need to texture the damn thing when finished. Still, it's worth sticking with for the results.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-01-26 07:55am

I love the good job yall did on the O-Wing...

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-26 10:21am

Thank you Einhander, here's another little update. Most of the hull panels are there now and the guns are taking shape. Hopefully I'll fionish the detailing sometime tomorrow and begin the final work of texturing and image maps for it. Once that's out the way, the cool animation follows

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing10.jpg

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-01-26 10:50am

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Thank you Einhander, here's another little update. Most of the hull panels are there now and the guns are taking shape. Hopefully I'll fionish the detailing sometime tomorrow and begin the final work of texturing and image maps for it. Once that's out the way, the cool animation follows

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing10.jpg

Very Nice! One thing I forgot to mention. How about small fins on the engine pods? Like about a meter in width with a 45-degree sweepback on the leading edge? Something for roll-control...

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2003-01-26 03:24pm

Holy shit, that looks great! I've had a very negative opinion on the O-Wing's early stages because that's all I thought it would turn out to be, except with some nice textures. But, damn, the details you've added make the whole thing look amazing! Just one thing I think needs to be addressed. Sometime, eventually, I think you should make the cockpit windows transparant and put a Rebel pilot in there. Then it would look more authentic. Maybe you should save that for the last stage of making the model. But that's up to you, of course. Another minor thing is that I think the engine flares should break away from traditional colors and should be green, just for something new. But, again, that's up to you.

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-26 03:32pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Thank you Einhander, here's another little update. Most of the hull panels are there now and the guns are taking shape. Hopefully I'll fionish the detailing sometime tomorrow and begin the final work of texturing and image maps for it. Once that's out the way, the cool animation follows

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenny7/Owing10.jpg

Excellent, the details really are making a difference. Could there be a about a 50% increase to the gun barrels as they are a tad small at the minute, barely th size of a Snowspeeders main weapon (and we know how underpowered that was). Again I like the silvered cockpit, I much prefer that to a transparent version.