Roles and Powers of an Imperial Grand Admiral

[GTGearZero]

What kind of powers did an Imperial Grand Admiral have? Also, what role did he play in the Imperial hiearchy? I've looked around for this information, but I've never found anything. All I know, just from research, was that the rank of Grand Admiral was one of the highest in the Empire.

[Darth Raptor]

In the First Empire under Palpatine, it was the highest rank in the Navy, and after the Supreme Commander, the Armed Forces (the SupCom might also be a grand admiral). Not the Empire itself. The military was still accountable to and operated in conjunction with the other arms of state. They commanded enormous strategic forces to be sure, but Moff Governors had more authority within their territory. Although after Endor many of the Imperial Remnant factions became military dictatorships under a petty warlord (usually a senior admiral or general).

I know precious little about the Second Empire.

[Mr Bean]

Grand Admiral had quite a bit of political power as well, seeing as how they were personally appointed by the Emperor they were one step away from calling in Palpy.

From all appearances Grand Admiral's actual power was focused, yes they were the highest Naval Rank but the only way to become a Grand Admiral was if the Emperor needed a task taken care off he could not mind him self. Witness GA-Thrawn's elevation to pacific the Unknow Regions. Or Martio for his research. To a greater or less extent each Grand Admiral was promoted to deal with some situation, their success meant they kept the rank and after the task was complete they could return to normal Naval service., their failure of course meant their death.

Double edged sword that

[Illuminatus Primus]

It seemed like an ultimate rank, but only insofar that they represented the Emperor's personal naval officers. Their prestige and importance was that they were Palpatine's envoys within the Navy, and could therefore override any other concerns. However, they also seem to sort of exist outside the rank structure, since none were the professional heads of the Navy, and because they often were just tucked into idiosyncratic errands.

[Havok]

They seem to be like special forces Admirals.

[TC Pilot]

Grand Admirals were the commanders of the entire Imperial Navy, though their roles were never dictated in such a way that the Empire's naval forces were divided into twelfths and they almost never commanded impressively sizable naval forces (Teshik, off the top of my head, excluded). Rather, they seemed to travel around the galaxy, requisitioning what forces they needed when they needed them for whatever tasks the Emperor set them about.

Since most of the Empire's institutions ended up competing for power and influence within the Imperial state, Grand Admirals were necessarily involved in the machinations of the court, with Tigellinus being exceptionally adept and Grant notoriously unconcerned at it. It is curious that many Grand Admirals spent their time on little pet projects, like Zaarin or Syn, though others were certainly tasked with various military operations (Thrawn to conquer the Unknown Regions, and Teshik to conquer Hapes, which, despite intentionally too few forces in a bid to kill him, he seems to have managed to accomplish).

[Fire Fly]

In the pre-Endor era, grand admirals were direct agents of the Imperial Throne, usually assigned special tasks with strategic resources. They aren't exactly a part of the military structure in that they don't report to the military high command; they're more or less independent agents of the military who serve as a representative of the Emperor. Its not entirely clear if the rank of grand admiral is the highest military rank (if we take into consideration grand general), although sources would suggest so. In all likelihood, the primary function of the grand admiral seems to have been to allow the Emperor greater control over the military and to bypass the military high command.

In the post-Endor era, the powers of the grand admirals quickly disintegrated. Since the grand admirals were appointed solely by the Emperor, their power was tied directly to him. Those who could not secure support from the other elements of the civilian government or military quickly became castrated, such as Grand Admiral Grant. So their powers are actually quite limited.

[TC Pilot]

From TIE Fighter: "Admiral Thrawn, I am promoting you to Grand Admiral, for your obediant service. You will join my inner circle of 12 Grand Admirals who will command all Imperial Forces...for the glory of the Empire."

[Illuminatus Primus]

But its clear they're not actually the professional heads of service individually or collectively. Nor do they actually serve at the top of the chain of command. I think it more likely that their superlative rank as the Galactic Emperor's own admirals means they formally outrank all other officers, including the professional head of the Navy (and *maybe* even the supreme commander), but for practical purposes they exist on their own outside the main chain of seniority and normal chain of command. Maybe even on occasion in court politics and such they actually do intervene and countermand specific decisions or directives by the navy head (or *maybe* even supreme commander). So they may lie at the crown of the navy in formality, but for practical purposes its pretty clear they are doing their own thing. They're just yet another example of Palpatine creating pets he can use to cut directly through the formal chains of command and bureaucracy with impunity and without question.

[Tiriol]

I think it more likely that their superlative rank as the Galactic Emperor's own admirals means they formally outrank all other officers, including the professional head of the Navy (and *maybe* even the supreme commander), but for practical purposes they exist on their own outside the main chain of seniority and normal chain of command.

New Essential Guide to Characters notes that Lord Vader had little use for his Emperor's Grand Admirals (Admiral Piett apparently was a match for any one of them and Vader favored him over the Emperor's Twelve), save for Thrawn (who pleased the Dark Lord enough to give access to Noghri death commandos). It is thus unlikely that they could outrank Vader (who, by all appearances, was a Supreme Commander, although Wookieepedia cites him as Emperor's Executor, apparently filling the same role). Several TIE Fighter missions of Tan Maarek Stele also make it clear that Thrawn is subservient to Vader; and in X-Wing comic series album Blood and Honor Vader presents a battleplan for several military officers (including Soontir Fel, the protagonist of the story) while Thrawn, who formed the plan in question (Fel deducted this from the fact that while the plan was as brilliant as could be expected, it decidedly lacked the sinister undertones he had come to expect of the Dark Lord), stayed in the background, being more or less subservient.

While it could be argued that only Vader's personal charisma and influence (and his known murderous streak) kept the Grand Admirals in line, it seems, according to the evidence, that the post of the Supreme Commander/Executor had more part in it: Grand Moff Wilhuff Tarkin and Admiral Conan Antonio Motti treated Vader not as a superior, but as an equal (although Vader was quick to put the upstart Admiral in his place) as seen in both A New Hope and the novel Death Star. Later this element disappears in Vader's relations with the officers.

[Darth Hoth]

Wookieepedia is being biased/fanoning again. There is no canon support for the idea that Vader was ever the Imperial Military Executor; on the contrary, there is no evidence for the rank being in use at all before Sedriss's appointment.

As for the Grand Admirals, they appear to have been Palpatine's plenipotentiaries more than anything else, as noted above, dispatched on various more or less useful tasks outside the ordinary naval hierarchy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Funny, this comes up. I am responsible for twice trying to delete the claim because it is completely fabricated.

[Chris OFarrell]

Regardless of his formal rank, I think its clear that Vader is the de-facto number 2 to Palpitine and no-one is going to be stupid enough to say no to him, without Palpitine in his corner -though Palpy does appear to enjoy playing Vader against his other agents occasionally.

I always took the naming of his flagship 'Executor' by the Emperor to be a public endorsement of his role as 2IC frankly. Though it might well be this happened after Yavin and the loss of the Death Star as the new center of gravity for Palpitine to drive around in.

And in that way, the Grand Admirals are not going to cross him unless they REALLY have Palpitines backing...though they are probably smart enough to not get in that kind of position in the first place.

[Thanas]

One should not mistake Thrawn staying in the background for subservience, since he more often decided to stay in the shadows throughout his career. Secrecy was iirc one of his pet peeves.

Furthermore, it kinda allowed him to get his ideas heard through Vader (and maybe even manipulate him) like in "Side Trip".

[Tiriol]

Funny, this comes up. I am responsible for twice trying to delete the claim because it is completely fabricated.

Who brings that claim up? For my life I can't remember a single source outside of the Wookieepedia that would have Executor as a proper post before Sedriss. It is even more dubious when one considers that Luke Skywalker was referred to as Lord and Supreme Commander in Dark Empire (although I don't have access to that comic I can't verify it right now).

[Tiriol]

One should not mistake Thrawn staying in the background for subservience, since he more often decided to stay in the shadows throughout his career. Secrecy was iirc one of his pet peeves.

Furthermore, it kinda allowed him to get his ideas heard through Vader (and maybe even manipulate him) like in "Side Trip".

How exactly did Side Trip's "manipulation" happen? It is usually referred only as Thrawn gaining Vader's favor in the form of Noghri death commandos after completing a task for the Dark Lord. And if anything, Thrawn should know how dangerous it is to try to manipulate Vader known for his aggressive approach to failures and insults. Prince Xizor and Baron Tagge paid a terrible price for it and surely Thrawn would be aware that Vader's murderous streak cannot ne reliably controlled (something that even the Mary Sue-ish Mara Jade learned in Allegiance).

[TC Pilot]

But its clear they're not actually the professional heads of service individually or collectively. Nor do they actually serve at the top of the chain of command.

Proof?

I think it more likely that their superlative rank as the Galactic Emperor's own admirals means they formally outrank all other officers, including the professional head of the Navy (and *maybe* even the supreme commander)

Out of curiousity, who or what is the head of the Navy? Should it not be the highest ranking uniformed officers?

So they may lie at the crown of the navy in formality, but for practical purposes its pretty clear they are doing their own thing.

So? They're certainly highly ranked enough within the Imperial Navy to do whatever they please, just as Grand Moffs were able to operate with seeming impunity in their own star systems, only bounded by the threat of being undercut, discredited, or deposed through the court or the Emperor's disfavor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

But its clear they're not actually the professional heads of service individually or collectively. Nor do they actually serve at the top of the chain of command.

Proof?

Uh? What are you talking about? They do not serve at GHQ? They do not serve at High Command? They're errend boys of a kind. The grand admirals don't actually sit around and manage the Navy, but provide direct "Emperor's" oversight to specific projects.

Out of curiousity, who or what is the head of the Navy? Should it not be the highest ranking uniformed officers?

General of the Armies of the United States George Washington is and will always be the highest ranking and most senior commissioned officer of the U.S. military, yet the Army is managed by a chief of staff. I imagine the Imperial Navy must have some analogue to the Chief of Naval Operations (USN) or Chief of Naval Staff (RN).

We'd expect them to work differently if they had this job being the professional head of a galactic navy. Maybe they formally possess it while the actual powers are executed by somesort of council; the Board of Admiralty was technically the "Commissioners for Exercising the Office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, &c." - it was technical simply a commission serving as an executor in place of the Lord High Admiral. Perhaps the top of Naval Command is similar, actually doing the day-to-day bureaucratic business of running the Navy technically on behalf of the grand admirals?

So? They're certainly highly ranked enough within the Imperial Navy to do whatever they please, just as Grand Moffs were able to operate with seeming impunity in their own star systems, only bounded by the threat of being undercut, discredited, or deposed through the court or the Emperor's disfavor.

I am not arguing they do not possess ultimate rank, the issue is they actually do the dirty work of leading the naval staff at Naval Command on Coruscant, or whether their superlative rank exists so they can pull rank on anyone else for the purposes of whatever Palpatine sends them to do. I think its more consistent with the latter. It also explains why there was no interruption in the chain of command and the management of the navy with the gradual elimination of all the grand admirals.

Grand Moffs were not able to operate with impunity in their own star systems; "all-Empire" jurisdiction officers of state and powers could interfere - witness Vader as supreme commander in TESB in the Oversector Outer, and the grand admirals themselves.

[RogueIce]

So basically they were a slightly more public Emperor's Hands with a spiffy white uniform? Because from what I'm gathering they were pretty much off doing their own projects on behalf of the Emperor (or themselves) rather than taking a place in the chain of command. And their rank would allow them to pretty much take whatever Naval assets they needed to do that job, provided the Emperor or someone like Vader didn't take a personal hand in whatever they were doing.

Is this more-or-less correct?

I wonder then, if the "Grand Generals" were like that, or if they were pretty much just a top-tier rank in the COC. Given I've only ever heard of the one from Force Commander I don't know if there's any kind of hard evidence, but I wonder how they would go about it.

Also, could a Grand Admiral just commandeer Army assets if he needed them, or would he have to go through the Army chain of command (or Moff or whoever) if he wanted them. Assuming he didn't just have organic Army assets under his command (or needed more).

I suppose the same could be asked of a Grand General and the Navy, assuming they served a similar role.

[TC Pilot]

Uh? What are you talking about? They do not serve at GHQ? They do not serve at High Command? They're errend boys of a kind. The grand admirals don't actually sit around and manage the Navy, but provide direct "Emperor's" oversight to specific projects.

And on what basis are you concluding that "professional heads of service" must be desk-holders? How can the uniformed commanders "of all Imperial Forces" not "serve at the top of the chain of command"?

General of the Armies of the United States George Washington is and will always be the highest ranking and most senior commissioned officer of the U.S. military, yet the Army is managed by a chief of staff. I imagine the Imperial Navy must have some analogue to the Chief of Naval Operations (USN) or Chief of Naval Staff (RN).

Why should the Imperial Navy operate even remotely similar to the United States or Great Britain's naval services?

Virtually every instance of the highest ranking military officer in SW has them leading from the front, not bunkered away behind some desk. Ackbar, Grievous, Pellaeon, Niathal, etc.

Perhaps the top of Naval Command is similar, actually doing the day-to-day bureaucratic business of running the Navy technically on behalf of the grand admirals?

Perhaps. It's blind speculation, and ridiculously irrelevant. Who administrates the Imperial Navy had who holds the highests ranks at the highest position of the Navy heirarchy has absolutely nothing to do with the bureacracy of running an unfathomably vast military body.

By your arguing, Palpatine was not really Emperor because he delegated the affairs of state to Pestage.

I am not arguing they do not possess ultimate rank, the issue is they actually do the dirty work of leading the naval staff at Naval Command on Coruscant, or whether their superlative rank exists so they can pull rank on anyone else for the purposes of whatever Palpatine sends them to do. I think its more consistent with the latter.

So then you didn't say "Nor do they actually serve at the top of the chain of command"?

It also explains why there was no interruption in the chain of command and the management of the navy with the gradual elimination of all the grand admirals.

"No interruption of the chain of command"? Are you insane? Half the Grand Admirals broke away within the first year or so, along with any innumerable number of warlords and usurpers to the throne. The navy was in a state chaos and disorganization unmatched at any point in time.

[Ender]

Uh? What are you talking about? They do not serve at GHQ? They do not serve at High Command? They're errend boys of a kind. The grand admirals don't actually sit around and manage the Navy, but provide direct "Emperor's" oversight to specific projects.

Teshik was in command of Imperial Center Oversector from the Anaxes Citadel, which was the High Command post for the Core Worlds. He oversaw the protection of all the Core Worlds and at least some of the colonies as well. In addition to Imperial Center Oversector, he had the Azure Hammer and Azure Shield Oversector fleets, and given the stated scope of his territories, Black Sword shoul have answered to him as well. He also led operations that took place out in the Rim. He had an Executor class as his flagship as part of the Anaxes fleet (Whelm), whereas other Grand admirals had to steal them (Grunger) or requisition them for a special project (Batch) rather then actually command them.

So he is based out of the military center of the Galaxy, commands several most powerful fleets, directs them all over the galaxy, and was on hand at the second Death Star. We don't have anything explicitly stating he was the Chief of Naval Operations, but he has more claim to it then anyone else we have seen. At the very least he is first among equals of the Grand Admirals .

And just to toss some gas on the fire, remember that we have also seen Grand Generals.

[Ender]

So basically they were a slightly more public Emperor's Hands with a spiffy white uniform? Because from what I'm gathering they were pretty much off doing their own projects on behalf of the Emperor (or themselves) rather than taking a place in the chain of command. And their rank would allow them to pretty much take whatever Naval assets they needed to do that job, provided the Emperor or someone like Vader didn't take a personal hand in whatever they were doing.

Is this more-or-less correct?

They seem to be more along the line of cincs to my mind. Some of them had direct military command of areas and led specific operations, others were in charge of special projects - Tigellinus appeared to head up antipiracy efforts, Batch led their equivalent of DARPA, Il-Raz was closesly tied with COMPNOR. The only one who seems to really be out there is Pitta who had only 3 ships and committed xenocide up and down the Rim. And we aren't told squat about Syn beyond he was really religious, so who knows what he did.

Grand Moffs were the political leaders of a region, who were often also given a military rank as well that made the the military heads of their region. But the Grand Admirals (and presumably Grand Generals) were strictly the military heads of a region or command, never given political command (though it is indicated that that was Palpatine's eventual goal) until Thrawn and Pelleon assumed the role.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Really? I don't recall ever seeing any Grand Generals. Who were they?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Teshik was in command of Imperial Center Oversector from the Anaxes Citadel, which was the High Command post for the Core Worlds. He oversaw the protection of all the Core Worlds and at least some of the colonies as well. In addition to Imperial Center Oversector, he had the Azure Hammer and Azure Shield Oversector fleets, and given the stated scope of his territories, Black Sword shoul have answered to him as well. He also led operations that took place out in the Rim. He had an Executor class as his flagship as part of the Anaxes fleet (Whelm), whereas other Grand admirals had to steal them (Grunger) or requisition them for a special project (Batch) rather then actually command them.

This aside from what I was arguing with TC, you're simply misinterpreting things here. First of all, Imperial Center Oversector only guards part of the Core Worlds and Colonies, namely the territories attached to Imperial Center Oversector by definition. I don't recall him being attached to all Core Worlds, and even if he was, by definition if he is the supreme commander of an Oversectorial force he answered to the governor - the Grand Moff - of that Oversector. There is not a shred of evidence assigning BLACKSWORDCOM to him.

Super Star Destroyers mean nothing - Jerec got one (after Endor admittedly), but several Core Worlds had them attached to their commanding fleets headed by conventional grades of admiral (Annhiliator and Kuat, etc.).

So he is based out of the military center of the Galaxy, commands several most powerful fleets, directs them all over the galaxy, and was on hand at the second Death Star.

Anaxes was the location of High Command? Does it SAY that in Coruscant and the Core Worlds? Furthermore, he was the equivalent of the CO of Home Fleet for Britain during WW2, at best. Really, he is the governor of the defense forces attached to the Coruscant Oversector. Grand Moffs govern Oversectors; his assignment to it means he's not on the "pan-empire" area of responsibility but attached as the naval commander to a governor.

We don't have anything explicitly stating he was the Chief of Naval Operations, but he has more claim to it then anyone else we have seen. At the very least he is first among equals of the Grand Admirals.

Not unless you really stretch what Oversector is qualified as and lump in a bunch of unwarranted assumptions regarding SSDs, BLACKSWORDCOM, and other claims. I suggest you re-read Leviathan by Publius, because I think your model is flawed and he has a lot of evidence to describe it otherwise.

[Crown]

I have to agree with Primus' analysis at this point, it's the reasoning that bests fits the evidence, although I do have to agree that foisting our real world realities on how these things are run in SW can be a little naive.

Whether we want to admit it or not, Lucas made his films with the leaders leading from the front. it's the reality he created for the films, and there is nothing wrong with using that interpretation for Grand Admirals, as long as we're not violating canon.