11-Year-Old Dies after Prayer Healing Ineffective

[Darth Servo]

The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping what religious means.

"We were ignoring modern medicine and praying for healing instead, because that's what the book purported to be written by the invisible sky pixie says to do, but we're not religious."

To many people, its short for "organized religion". Meeting in your house studying the bible with friends isn't bad. Its the bureaucratic churches that are the problem according to these people. They seem to think they're being less irrational this way for some strange reason.

[Master_Baerne]

People who deliberately ignore all evidence and common sense in favor of an unsupported doctrine no one except the Scientologists endorse disgust me. Burn the misbelievers, I say.

[Zixinus]

People who deliberately ignore all evidence and common sense in favor of an unsupported doctrine no one except the Scientologists endorse disgust me. Burn the misbelievers, I say.

Wouldn't that, in essence, be an oxymoron?

[ray245]

Sigh...if those people want to believe in god, then they might as well say that modern medicine are a gift from god to humanity indirectly or directly....

Then pray that the cure works.

How come those people can't have that kind of logic, at the least the boy won't die.

[TithonusSyndrome]

The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time grasping what religious means.

"We were ignoring modern medicine and praying for healing instead, because that's what the book purported to be written by the invisible sky pixie says to do, but we're not religious."

To many people, its short for "organized religion". Meeting in your house studying the bible with friends isn't bad. Its the bureaucratic churches that are the problem according to these people. They seem to think they're being less irrational this way for some strange reason.

For whatever reason, this bullshit myth thrives and maintains that rotting old canard centrists love to throw out about big organizations ruining wholesome pastoral messages and values. Fundamentalists are just a tiny handful of bad apples ruining the reputation of an entire nation of nicey-nice whitebread John Q. Publics who don't hurt anyone because they seem to think that being nice to one another is what the Bible is all about, apparently.

[PainRack]

OT I know, but to be honest, I agree with "organised religion= bad" ideology.

After all, a personal spirituality is usually no different from any philosophy we adopt from our own daily lives. The only caveat is that you believe there's a mysterious sky pixie up there.

Organised religion however are the ones that throw social conditioning tools, entrench ideology, create social conformity and "outing".

[Rye]

OT I know, but to be honest, I agree with "organised religion= bad" ideology.

After all, a personal spirituality is usually no different from any philosophy we adopt from our own daily lives. The only caveat is that you believe there's a mysterious sky pixie up there.

Organised religion however are the ones that throw social conditioning tools, entrench ideology, create social conformity and "outing".

Personal spirituality hardly ever evolves in a vacuum (it will usually reflect a dominant ideology, or worse, some reactionary ideology that's more given to fundamentalism), and the problems with organised religion are more than just an organised hegemony.

The same core untruth - that faith is valuable and should be heeded- is present in both and just as amenable to evil acts in both. There's just the chance you won't have (as much) peer pressure in one as the other. At the same time, these people are at risk of forming or joining cults, usually based in the family first (see Westboro Baptist Church).

Less socially harmful, perhaps, more socially harmful than some organised religion? Also, perhaps.

[Master_Baerne]

People who deliberately ignore all evidence and common sense in favor of an unsupported doctrine no one except the Scientologists endorse disgust me. Burn the misbelievers, I say.

Wouldn't that, in essence, be an oxymoron?

Well, yes, now that you mention it. But I think the point came across.

[KlavoHunter]

Update!

The parents have been charged with reckless homicide.

Update: DA: Parents were aware girl could die

Wausau Daily Herald

A town of Weston couple whose 11-year-old child died after they chose to pray for her healing rather than seek medical attention will be charged Wednesday with second-degree reckless homicide, a prosecutor said today.

Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad announced at 1 p.m. at a press conference in Weston that Dale and Leilani Neumann each will be charged with second-degree reckless homicide, a charge that carries a punishment of up to 25 years in prison.

The Neumanns’ daughter, Madeline Kara Neumann, died March 23 from complications of diabetes that were treatable, according to a medical examiner. Kara, 11, had not been to a doctor since age 3, and her parents told investigators that they did not know she had diabetes, police said.

Falstad said there has been much discussion about the “religious defense.” There is a constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion and parents have leeway in how to raise a child, though neither is absolute, she said.

“In this case it was necessary to weigh freedom of religion and parenting rights against the state’s interests in protecting children,” Falstad read from a prepared statement.

“Second-degree reckless homicide has two elements. The first element is that the defendant caused the death of another. The second element is that the defendant caused the death by criminally reckless conduct.”

“In this case that (criminally reckless) conduct was the failure to seek medical intervention. The failure to seek medical intervention created an unreasonable and substantial risk of death or great bodily harm to Kara and the Neumanns were aware of that risk.”

During the last 48 hours of her life, Kara became unable to speak, eat or walk and had breathing difficulties, Falstad said. In her final hours, Kara was comatose, Falstad said.

The Neumanns, who were not represented by their attorney Gene Linehan at the press conference, will make an initial court appearance Wednesday. Falstad said she does not consider them a flight risk, so she will ask the judge for a high-dollar signature bond at Wednesday’s hearing.

Because there was a death involved, Falstad said she had to consider homicide charges rather than neglect charges.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the Neumanns used to belong to a church, but had since branched out on their own. He cast them as “isolationists.”

Milwaukee media, including the Journal Sentinel and two television stations, also were on hand for the press conference. The circumstances surrounding Kara’s death have garnered national media attention.

Return to www.wausaudailyherald.com throughout the day for updates and see Tuesday’s print edition for complete coverage

[Dracofrost]

I want to know what's happened to the other children. Have they been taken away and placed in the care of someone sane and noncriminal? And I sure hope these folks get the maximum sentence.

[Cycloneman]

The part that bothered me the most about the story of Job was that once the bet was off and Job got rich again, God make up for killing his kids by giving him twice as many kids. Didn't bring back the dead kids or reveal it was all a big trick or anything. They're treated like property. "Oops, I killed your goat. Here's two to replace it."

Actually, the part that bothered me even more was when other people read it and weren't bothered by it. It's a complete callous disregard for life, but because they've been trained all their life to think of the story (and life in general) in a particular way, they really can't see it at all. In fact, they often think that a callous disregard for life is the right and proper thing to do. We're all just corrupt, twisted creatures born with sin, after all.

And that's what this comes down to. What's more important, this stuff you've been told, or your actual, living kids? Poor girl never had a chance.

Back when I used to pay any attention during church, I always found this story reprehensible (because it is). If you bring it up, the same old cultural relativism bullshit "the jews were dicks so it's okay" thing comes up, just like when talking about, say, the morally reprehensible treatment of women in Genesis 19 or Judges 19. More precisely, they'll say something like "but the jews at that time thought of their children like property, so God was just playing to the crowd."

It doesn't really link up in any way to the real world. Ever hear a Christian of that stripe talk about cultural relativism in any serious way (that is, regarding the sort of horrifying shit, not just "they wear hats inside" pointless crap)? I mean, there's a reason it's illegal to be a polygamist in the US, and it sure isn't secular.

It's just retarded doublethink bullshit, I really don't think it has an effect on your average fundie's outlook.

[Sidewinder]

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the Neumanns used to belong to a church, but had since branched out on their own. He cast them as “isolationists.”

I have to wonder why the parents became "isolationists." If they were still attending church, and mentioned that their daughter was very sick, someone would probably state the obvious "Then take her to a doctor!" (Under breath.) "Dumbass."

[Kamakazie Sith]

I had a huge debate on a myspace forum with some idiot who stood up for the parents decision because they were practicing their religious beliefs, which are protected by the first amendment.

I cited a few SCOTUS court cases where it was ruled that harmful religious acts are not protected by the first amendment.

This is a step in the right direction, and a shot for a major victory against religious stupidity.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I want to know what's happened to the other children. Have they been taken away and placed in the care of someone sane and noncriminal? And I sure hope these folks get the maximum sentence.

I think they were moved to a family members home who wasn't religious in to that degree.

[Johonebesus]

The part that bothered me the most about the story of Job was that once the bet was off and Job got rich again, God make up for killing his kids by giving him twice as many kids. Didn't bring back the dead kids or reveal it was all a big trick or anything. They're treated like property. "Oops, I killed your goat. Here's two to replace it."

Actually, the part that bothered me even more was when other people read it and weren't bothered by it. It's a complete callous disregard for life, but because they've been trained all their life to think of the story (and life in general) in a particular way, they really can't see it at all. In fact, they often think that a callous disregard for life is the right and proper thing to do. We're all just corrupt, twisted creatures born with sin, after all.

And that's what this comes down to. What's more important, this stuff you've been told, or your actual, living kids? Poor girl never had a chance.

Back when I used to pay any attention during church, I always found this story reprehensible (because it is). If you bring it up, the same old cultural relativism bullshit "the jews were dicks so it's okay" thing comes up, just like when talking about, say, the morally reprehensible treatment of women in Genesis 19 or Judges 19. More precisely, they'll say something like "but the jews at that time thought of their children like property, so God was just playing to the crowd.

The sad thing is that the story of Job is actually a move in the right direction from the prevalent theology of the time. Most Jews believed that bad things happened to bad people, and good people were rewarded. That's why Job's friends keep telling him that he must atone for whatever horrible sins he committed so God will stop punishing him. The lesson of the story is that sometimes bad things happen to good people, and there is no real explanation as to why: at the end God didn't tell Job about the bet, just reprimanded him for demanding an answer.

It also gave us what I think is one of the best lines in the Bible. Job's wife, when he refuses to renounce YHWH, says, "Dost thou still retain thine integrity? Curse God and die!"

[Ritterin Sophia]

I had a huge debate on a myspace forum

Well right there's your problem.

[Chardok]

I had a huge debate on a myspace forum

Well right there's your problem.

He could ask him why, then, we are looking for Osama Bin Laden, since he ordered 9/11 on the grounds of religious belief and hey, it's all, protected and stuff.

[Broomstick]

"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

Yes, that's usually how people die from illness.

Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

How the FUCK can parents watch their child, which they claim to love, fucking suffer like that for 30 days and do nothing but PRAY? How? How can these people be human?

I'm not even a parent but I can't imagine watching another human being - related to me or not - get sicker and sicker for a fucking MONTH without hauling their ass to a doctor!

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

If anything they had TOO much faith - faith that mumbling words would cure physical illness.

It's selfishness, really - they're trying to prove their holiness by curing their daughter through their magical abilities rather than use medical science.

They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

And none of these fuckwads said "Hey, maybe you should have a doctor look at her."? Or maybe they scolded such for "lacking faith" and shooed them out the door?

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

I thought doctrine was that only Jesus got resurrected before Judgement Day. But then, I'm not Christian so maybe I'm wrong on that.

Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.

They were probably too busy praying to answer the phone.

The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

And now it's one fewer.

Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.

It's pretty fucking sad when someon on the other side of the continent has more sense than the parents on the scene.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

How about "negligent homicide"?

The best picture I can paint on that statement is that what the officer meant was they weren't in immediate danger, so let the legal process do this rather than simply ripping them out the home in their nighties.

You know, I'm not surprised that the parents didn't realize it was diabetes - it can have a rapid onset without prior problems, and the parents were so isolated (mentally, if not geographically) they may not have been able to diagnose her, but holy shit, if your kid is sick for a whole fucking month she's NOT getting better and maybe it's time to admit your faith isn't "perfect" or whatever and get some fucking help!.

Hell, I got hauled off to the hospital after a mere week of nausea, vomiting, and weakness. These parents are delusional morons.

WESTON, Wis. — The mother of an 11-year-old girl who died of untreated diabetes said Wednesday that she did not know her daughter was terminally ill as she prayed for her to get better.

Because the mother is an ignorant moron who values proving her faith over the life of her children.

The family believes in the Bible, and it says healing comes from God, but they are not crazy, religious people, she said.

Yes, yes you ARE crazy, religious people. Even most religious Fundies will go to the damn doctor when they get sick.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he has friends who are doctors. He started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body, he said.

Why did none of these “doctor friends’ tell the parents to get medical help for their daughter? And if the parent refused, why didn’t those doctors call the authorities, as they are obligated to do in cases of abuse or neglect? Or did the family exclude these “doctor friends” from their prayer circle so their faith would not be questioned?

"We are remaining strong for our children," she said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The MSP should bitchslap these two with guilt for needlessly allowing their child to die.

But Leilani Neumann said her daughter, a straight A student, was in good health until recently.

DE-NI-AL

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

What bullshit.

Once the terminal phase sets in, with the onset of coma, the only cure is insulin. There were no “signs” of recovery except in this delusional woman’s mind.. If they had called when the child first became unresponsive she still could have been saved. ER care and an injection of insulin could have saved this girl’s life, she could have lived to adulthood, done wonderful things, had her own family, had a full life and they threw that away in their pride and selfish drive to prove they were so full of faith that God would perform a miracle just for special little them.

Her daughter had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she explained.

Right. Because nausea, vomiting, weakness, and, oh yes, a fucking coma is perfectly OK as long as there is no fever.

"We just believe in the Bible, that's all," she said. "This is our faith."

And it just let you down in a big way, didn’t it? Sucks to be you. Worse yet, it sucks to be your daughter.

Her husband added that, "We believe the word of God and live according to its precepts."

Where in the Bible does it say “thou shalt not go to a doctor when sick”? Oh, wait – it doesn’t.

We know we did not do anything criminal.

Then why are you being charged with homicide, you fucking morons?

We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do.

Guess you don’t know how, then – how to be a good parent.

Mrs. Neumann said she deeply loves all her children and has nurtured them spiritually, emotionally and physically.

Except she did a piss poor job of it.