Sauron/Orcs vs the USA

[Darth Wong]

Of course forging means the same thing, but your theory is not consistant with the creation of the Ring of Power. It was forged by Sauron, and after he got done forging it, he dumped the bulk of his power into it,given it it's invulnerablity and special powers. It's not because the ring has a significantly higher specific heat. It's still gold, it's just gold that happens it to contain a hell of alot of magic, making it static. This was stated in the trilogy. When I get home, if you wish, I will dig through the book and find the appropriate passage.

You're still missing the point. Magic exists in Middle Earth. It works. However, it is not omnipotent, and I have noticed that everyone is automatically assuming it is omnipotent. Even magic has limits; for example, a more powerful wizard can overpower a weaker wizard. It is self-evident that if there are different limits of power, then there are obviously limits.

Yet the very quote you use contradicts you. "...But there is no smith's forge in this Shire that could change it at all. Not even the anvils and furnaces of the Dwarves could do that. It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."

How does that quote contradict me? It only indicates that it was simply a matter of being "hot enough", which actually confirms everything I've been saying. None of the dragons of old had dragonfire that was "hot enough", but since it's clearly stated to be a simple matter of being "hot enough", and we technologically advanced people can generate heat greater than anything on Earth (including its core) or even the Sun, "hot enough" is definitely right down our alley.

No doubt, but magic must still work as well. Part of that magic is the legend that the One Ring can only be unmade at Orodruin. Unless, of course, you are claiming that technology works in full but magic does not.

Strawman. Read more carefully. I am saying that magic works, and that technology works also. I'm also pointing out that both must have limits. Sauron is more powerful than any other magic user. This fact alone is proof that magic has a magnitude, if you will, which in turn means that it has limits. There are physical phenomena (in the case of Mount Doom, natural phenomena which are distinguished only by being "hot enough") which can undo magic. What more proof do you need?

Absolutely correct. The Silmarillion was never for entertainment value. What the Silmarillion is is JRR Tolkiens notes that he prepared before he wrote the Lord of the Rings in order to make sure that the history of Middle Earth was completely consistant. His grandson, I believe, editted and published it,

Then it is not canon. JRR Tolkien never intended it to be published. It is like production storyboards or behind-the-scenes material.

Not true. They have such magic ability because they are Maiar and mortal men were not magic creatures, though they could learn things, such as Grima Wormtounge did.

Doesn't that line contradict itself? If mortal men can learn such things, then they are not intrinsic to wizards.

Men had other strengths and in the end, dominated Middle Earth.

Through sheer strength of will and determination, since magic was not made available to them.

Oddly enough, in his letters, JRR Tolkien hints that Pallando and Alatar actually founded magic schools in the east.

Hearsay.

What about the rest? Radagast didn't hang out with Men. Saruman did teach people some of his magic. Gandalf never stayed for too long in a place without good reason, and tried not to make out just how powerful he was to the local population. As far as most people knew Gandalf was just a really wise old man that was handy with parlor tricks and had aways been around.

Ah, so Saruman (the "evil" one) gave some of the magic to mortal men, while Gandalf (the "good" one) witheld magic and tried to conceal his abilities from others? This actually strengthens my suspicions about the wizards and their preferred "caste structure" approach to the races, doesn't it? Like the Biblical snake, the "bad guy" is the one who gives knowledge away to mortals, hence the preferred interpretation is clearly biased by the "father knows best" ethos I have been referring to.

Anyway, you are partially right. The Istari (except for possibly Saruman) never looked down their noses at men, but the Elves did. Tolkien frequently pointed to that when he wrote the story. The Elves were first class snobs. This wasn't true of the Istari though, which is the main point. Nothing in the story indicates at all that they thought Men could not handle magic.

Then why not give it to them, since they would find it useful, they're supposed to be fighting on the same side, and you have noted yourself that at least some of it could be given to them?

Perhaps we should not take George Lucas' preferred view of Jedi and instead of considering them protectors and peacekeepers, but elitist snobs who travel around butting their noses into things that aren't their business because they can and don't try to instill Jedi training the the general population because of inherent weakness as well.

Precisely. There were many serious problems with the Old Republic Jedi. They brought their own destruction down upon themselves, and they deserved it. However, there was no racial caste structure; Jedi can come from any species.

[lgot]

Darth Wong:

If I understand well that its possible that technology would work to meet the "only magical weapons can destroy them" , after all, it is possible to create something as powerful (and I like to remember, here in this universe that magic can be weaker, since their magic was linked to Middle Earth) I think you do some mistakes...

You have to accept the rules of ME, right ? In that rules, black and white generalization exist. People can feel "evil". Things are not between those, they are or good or evil. Saruman was totally evil, Gandalf was good. You can be corrupted, but when that happens there is not such thing as relative.
Of course, people can judge others, and you do mistakes, but there is such line in Tolkien Universe.
Simarillion is cannon. Was written by Tolkien and he wanted to publish it, but he never finished - for the same reason: He still wanted to "clean" it to be entertaining, otherwise is huge History book. There is no failure, I doubt anyone ever found any contradiction in Simarillion with LoTR. Its almost perfect (my brother used to joke that if he get a time machine he would return to Moses and give him Simarillion before God and that would work the same)
But mainly...
About the battle in earth Sauron against US Army, The One Ring was not important. Sauron did not have it to use it. And when he had, he didnt wanted the ring to battle, just otherwise, he wanted to avoid battle with the pesk Elfs, humans and Dwarves. With the One Ring (and even without it) Sauron strategy is hide and wait until he could manipulated the will of enemy. And there is no technology today to stop it (and being immortal helps, Sauron waited long).
So the One Ring is irrelevant, being possible or not of destruction by some extra way.

[Smiling Bandit]

Mr. Wong, while I agree with you that a sufficiently hot temperature could crush the Ring's power, you ARE TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!

You have not yet justified or apologized or properly explained why you assume Gandalf, who had a hell of a lot more information on such matters than all of us put together, must be perverted in some way. There was NO known method for him to destroy the Ring. You keep assuming things without providing a shred of evidence.

However, it is not omnipotent, and I have noticed that everyone is automatically assuming it is omnipotent.

I have not. However, your arguments have only hit this point about 50% of the time. You'll notice the people posting in opposition to you either argue the Ring cannot be destoyed via raw heat (i.e., sympathetic magic), which may or may not be the case, depending on maximum enrgy yields in Middle Earth, or are objecting to your admittedly biased viewpoint on the Istari.

Then it is not canon. JRR Tolkien never intended it to be published. It is like production storyboards or behind-the-scenes material.

He made it to be published (it was so only a short time after his death; he was known for taking quite some time between publishing). And, yes, I believe the Silmarillion was created to entertain, but in a different sense than

Doesn't that line contradict itself? If mortal men can learn such things, then they are not intrinsic to wizards.

Yes and no. The wizards, of course, were quite possibly arond at the beginning of creation (only a few beings were definitely around then, but many others seem to have been). The Istari had far, far more power available than any man, woman, or child. They were, in effect, pure spirit cloaked in flesh. I don't recall any mention of people teaching pure magic.

However, it is well knwn that wise people, whether Elven or Human or what, can indeed touch some sort of power, albeit not nearly as strongly as the Istari. Grima can insinuate and poison the mind like Saruman, but much weaker. Wise smiths can build swords to terrofy the strongest minions of evil. But no human ever displays the ability to shoot flaming holy energy from his palms like Gandalf.

Ah, so Saruman (the "evil" one) gave some of the magic to mortal men, while Gandalf (the "good" one) witheld magic and tried to conceal his abilities from others? This actually strengthens my suspicions about the wizards and their preferred "caste structure" approach to the races, doesn't it?

Right. Saruman, the one who crippled Theoden via his servent Grima, nearly stole the Ring for his own use, and generally made a lot of havoc (Sharky, anyone?). Yeah, he's the good guy. *Snicker*

I have a feeling that if Gandalf had gone about displaying hs power at every turn you'd also be saying he was trying to impress people into servin him. :rolleyes Gandalf simply was not about to give a new, albeit dangerous toy into the hands of people who probably couldn't use it wisely. Even the much longer lived (and somewhat less swayed by short-lived desire and passion) Elves used very little flashy stuff. And in any event, they were not supposed to be in Middle earth anyway. C'mon, didn't you see all the times men kept dabbling in sorcerous powers? Boromir and his father are exactly like I'd expect people to act, and exactly the reason to not hand over a small nuke in spell-form.

[Darth Wong]

Mr. Wong, while I agree with you that a sufficiently hot temperature could crush the Ring's power, you ARE TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!

How so? That was the point I was trying to make ever since the Ring was brought up! If others have been trying to divert attention from it since then, that's not my problem.

You have not yet justified or apologized or properly explained why you assume Gandalf, who had a hell of a lot more information on such matters than all of us put together, must be perverted in some way. There was NO known method for him to destroy the Ring. You keep assuming things without providing a shred of evidence.

Who said he had a method of destroying the Ring? I said only that A) his words are being treated as if he is omniscient, which he is not and B) he has demonstrated a "father knows best" attitude, keeping mortal man down by not revealing secrets which he could reveal if he wanted to. This is not a matter of assumption; it is logic and observation.

Right. Saruman, the one who crippled Theoden via his servent Grima, nearly stole the Ring for his own use, and generally made a lot of havoc (Sharky, anyone?). Yeah, he's the good guy. *Snicker*

You're not getting the point, are you? The point is that Saruman deviated from the teachings of the group, ie- he's the bad guy. Therefore, he does not disprove my thesis that the group's policy is to keep mortal man down by keeping secrets from him.

C'mon, didn't you see all the times men kept dabbling in sorcerous powers? Boromir and his father are exactly like I'd expect people to act, and exactly the reason to not hand over a small nuke in spell-form.

Right, but Saruman was incorruptible because he was an Istari? (cough cough) Sorry, but there is not a shred of evidence that the different races are more or less corruptible than one another. It sounds more like racist caste distinctions to me, as I've been saying all along.

[Smiling Bandit]

You don't quite understand here... the Istari are not another race. They aren't even exactly another species. They are, for lack of a better term, angels. One of them falls, to be sure, but angels none the less.

How so? That was the point I was trying to make ever since the Ring was brought up! If others have been trying to divert attention from it since then, that's not my problem.

You brought it up, Slick, so don't somplain when I call you on it.

only that A) his words are being treated as if he is omniscient, which he is not

He is, of course, not omniescient, and you were right in saying so BUT NOT RIGHT in suggesting that he must be wrong. If you intened to make this argument then you should distinguish between creating a potential point and arrogantly denying the sole source of information on a subject.

You're not getting the point, are you? The point is that Saruman deviated from the teachings of the group, ie- he's the bad guy.

Except they *didn't* teach anyone -themselves included-Saurman was supposed to be the supposed to be the cheif opponent of Sauron. Nowhere did we see them order around one another. Saruman, you may recall, invited Gandalf to join with him. Moreover, while my idea is speculative, it is at least grounded in known fact on some level. You are assuming actions that happen off-screen. Moreover, you are assuming that the Istari's power can be taught directly to humans. The only "Human Magic" we see comes from a few mystical items: Narsil, the Palantir stones, and the Westerness swords. These proved of limited use against all but a few select foes. Narsil was more a symbol of power than a weapon. The Palantir merely made the users vulnerable to Sauron's temptations and will, and the short swords only came into play against the Nazgul, and then only once.

Please prove that first magic is usable by men, that Gandalf and co deliberately kept its secrets from mankind, and that it would have helped them.

Right, but Saruman was incorruptible because he was an Istari?

If you examine my argument carefully, you may note that I did say Saruman was incorruptible, nor even less likely to be so, than any man. However, I did note that Eru, for more or less incomprehensible reasons of his (her? its?) own, created a potentially harmonius order in which mankind was not gifted with great powers of magic. We got the numbers and pigheadedness instead of mystical bonds with the earth, immortality, and the right to live in paradise. (OK, all the world was suppsed to be pretty SCHWEET anyway, before Morgoth came along. So sue me.) Maybe it wasn't a great deal for us, but its what we're stuck with, and supposedly had things worked out, and you know, Morgoth not turned to utter evil in his blind arrogance, we'd have been happy. If you want to argue with the omnipotent Eru, or depending on your viewpoint, J. R. R. Tolkein, be my guest.

[Gil Hamilton]

Originally posted by lgot
Simarillion is cannon. Was written by Tolkien and he wanted to publish it, but he never finished - for the same reason: He still wanted to "clean" it to be entertaining, otherwise is huge History book. There is no failure, I doubt anyone ever found any contradiction in Simarillion with LoTR. Its almost perfect (my brother used to joke that if he get a time machine he would return to Moses and give him Simarillion before God and that would work the same)

Exactly. He spent the better part of sixty years writing it and re-writing it. There was only one contradiction within the Silmarillion that anyone ever found, than that was there was two Fingolfins, when it was stated that elves always have unique names. IIRC, he graciously acknowledged it, went back, and fixed it so it didn't contradict anymore. Even the languages are completely internally consistant. After all, they are whole languages.

Anyway:

Originally posted by Darth Wong
How does that quote contradict me? It only indicates that it was simply a matter of being "hot enough", which actually confirms everything I've been saying. None of the dragons of old had dragonfire that was "hot enough", but since it's clearly stated to be a simple matter of being "hot enough", and we technologically advanced people can generate heat greater than anything on Earth (including its core) or even the Sun, "hot enough" is definitely right down our alley.

This is the problem. We could look at the same passage and draw radically different conclusions. But read more carefully, Gandalf says that it was possible for Rings of Power (such as the 3 elf rings) could be melted by dragonfire, despite their being no dragons left with the capablity, but no dragon ever could have harmed the One Ring. The reason they could not harm it was because only the fires of Orodruin could do the job and nothing else.

And the Pallando and Alatar establishing magic schools in the east was not hearsay. In The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No. 211, it states this: "What success they [Alatar and Pallando] had I do not know; but I fear they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were the founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron." (Note: one of the things that Tolkien commonly did was when refering to his stories, he refered to them like a historian describing the ancient past, not as an author)

Ah, so Saruman (the "evil" one) gave some of the magic to mortal men, while Gandalf (the "good" one) witheld magic and tried to conceal his abilities from others? This actually strengthens my suspicions about the wizards and their preferred "caste structure" approach to the races, doesn't it? Like the Biblical snake, the "bad guy" is the one who gives knowledge away to mortals, hence the preferred interpretation is clearly biased by the "father knows best" ethos I have been referring to.

Not true at all, he never uncloaked himself because he didn't want the Enemy to know the extent that the Valar were working against him. That's why he passed himself off as a wandering conjurer. If he went strutting around as a Maiar and demonstrating awesome power left and right, it would have tipped the Enemy off that the Valar were sending Maiar against him. That would have been a bad thing.

[NecronLord]

a tree is still a tree

Yup, but they can walk talk and grab hold of you.

[Hendrake]

I tend to agree that the Ring could have been destroyed by something hot enaugh to do the work, but what if it is the incorrect way?

I mean, the incorrect way to end a spell. Magic and science work both in Middle Earth, so there might be a kind of law of conservation of magic, or used spells might have to be disposed of carefully, or recycled...

Hmmm... Well, that's what one gets reading too much Discworld, I suppose.

[Enforcer Talen]

the correct way routed armies, shattered a super fortress, and crumbled a mountain. what would the results of an incorrect one be?

[Majin Gojira]

To Quote one of my Favorite Shows

"Energy is Energy be it created by Magic or Science"

To destroy the One Ring, they had to go to Mt. Doom, because of a lingering Etherial charge from the rings creation - this gave enough energy to destroy the One Ring. today, we could probably do it with a plasma tourch or something (but we'd have to get it first). well, that's my opinion at least...

Anyway...

Sauron and the orcs vs. the US. Well, I believe Sauron will do what he did to the Numenorians. surrender, and work on the minds of the leaders. It's the only way he could acheive victory.

[Smiling Bandit]

Are you kidding, I say Sauron'd take one look at how nasty and evil we mere mortals an be and run home to surrender to the Valar. Sauron had Orcs. We had Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot!

[Darth Wong]

Are you kidding, I say Sauron'd take one look at how nasty and evil we mere mortals an be and run home to surrender to the Valar. Sauron had Orcs. We had Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot!

Not to mention Martha Stewart ...

[Hendrake]

the correct way routed armies, shattered a super fortress, and crumbled a mountain. what would the results of an incorrect one be?

I don't know. I'm no wizard, me.

Perhaps routing the wrong army, shattering a wrong fortress and crumbling the wrong mountain? Or changing the coulour of the sky? Or making the light go at the speed of an adverb, and transform yellow in a sound?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Are you kidding, I say Sauron'd take one look at how nasty and evil we mere mortals an be and run home to surrender to the Valar. Sauron had Orcs. We had Hitler and Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot!

Not to mention Martha Stewart ...

Woah, woah! No super weapons okay.

[Majin Gojira]

I refer to a quote from one of my favorite canceled programs:
"Energy is Energy be it created by Magic or Science"

I could go in deeper, but I'm leaving for a camping trip in a few hours...

[Crown]

Orcs are screwed!



Sauron, different matter, the US can't find and eliminate one goat h- *stops profanity rant* Osama, how the hell is it going to find Sauron?


*leaves quickly before he gets stoned to death*

[Kamakazie Sith]

Since somebody else brought up Saruman vs Count Dooku, I couldn't help but ask this one.

Now come on, who seriously thinks that Sauron and his orc armies, despite coolness and badass style, would hold up to ... oh, say, carpet bombing?

And the One Ring? Can't be melted anywhere but Mount Doom? Those primitives have never run into a plasma torch, have they?

The Orc armies would be destroyed, but Sauron can not be killed by mortal weapons...period...this is canon.

The one ring can only be destroyed by casting it into the fires of Mount. Doom, this is the only way.

It is canon....

It's not about physics....it's about magic. Remember that.

[Howedar]

He can't be killed by mortal weapons, which is why a sword cutting off his finger for all intents and purposes "killed" him?


Hell, forget it, I'm not even going to start to try to debate against such unquantifiable stuff as LOTR.

[Sea Skimmer]

Since somebody else brought up Saruman vs Count Dooku, I couldn't help but ask this one.

Now come on, who seriously thinks that Sauron and his orc armies, despite coolness and badass style, would hold up to ... oh, say, carpet bombing?

And the One Ring? Can't be melted anywhere but Mount Doom? Those primitives have never run into a plasma torch, have they?

The Orc armies would be destroyed, but Sauron can not be killed by mortal weapons...period...this is canon.

The one ring can only be destroyed by casting it into the fires of Mount. Doom, this is the only way.

It is canon....

It's not about physics....it's about magic. Remember that.

Blast the top of mount Doom open with JDAM's, then drop in the ring from a helocopter. Problume solved..

[Subnormal]

Blast the top of mount Doom open with JDAM's, then drop in the ring from a helocopter. Problume solved..

Volcanos create massive amounts of Ash, and thus a helicopter engine would become filled and fail, causing it to crash into Mordor someplace completely surrounded by orcs, and Sauron. You also forget Sauron can control the weather, and his evil Eye would be able to see you before you get there. Second Problem is Where would you get the ring, and plus we are Men and that means we would probably use the ring against ourselves as it would corrupt us as it did many men before. George Bush would probably get his hands on it, and become satan on Earth first anihilating Iraq then conquering the world. We humans are curious and would most definately try the ring on. Their are far eviler things in Mordor then Orcs. What about the Flying Wingwraithes they are supposedly extremely fast and cannot be destroyed, they would sacrifise themselves by flying full tilt into a nuclear weapon, or Helicopter, and then just appear back in Mordor and do it all over again.

[Enforcer Talen]

they live as long as the ring does. . .which assumes the ring owuld survive a nuke, and I think if a volcano could take it out, nuclear heat could.

[Subnormal]

it's Not science its magic, you must understand that, the Ring was made of Evil and forged in Mount Doom, and the only way to rid the ring would be to unmake the ring in Mount Doom, though I think a nice sized American task force could probably slip into Mordor with M-16s and M-60s and grenades would do good damage. A few Sheridan tanks airlifted to Mordor, a few F-16,f-15, f-18 maybe an A- 10 bombing or gun run of Mordor could keep the path clear, but if Sauron has the power over weather, he could easily make in impossible for tanks to move, Airplanes to fly, or infantry to march.

[SirNitram]

People don't realize that magic doesn't use science's rules and science doesn't use magic's rules. Of course, if you try to debate one using hte other's rules, you just end up looking daft...

[Skelron]

Besides all this talk of destroying the one ring ignores the simple fact that it Will corrupt anyone before the plan of destroiying it could be forged. Imagine this scenerio, human finds one ring, call said human Private Bob. Private Bob picks up nice fancy gold ring, and thinks 'hmm nice, I might give this Precious thing to my girlfriend' Soon he's thinking 'Nah I'll keep it for myself, it's my Precious momento...'
Later he's thinking 'The other's are after my Precous must protect my precious...' it's happening very quickly as well, look how quickly it effects other humans... Soon said Human is acting Very Strange and probs goes AWOL... Ring ends back in Sauron's hands... repeat anytime ring may be found...

[Tanith]

Someone mentioned earlier that Gandalf couldn't have known that the Sun couldn't have destroyed the One Ring.

I would like to point out that, according to the Silmarion, the Sun and the Moon of Middle Earth were *not* the celestial bodies that modern science was aware of. Their sun and moon were leftover remnants from the Twin Trees planted in Valinor when Middle Earth was first created, before the First Age. It was when Morgoth and Ungoliant stole a large amount of the Trees' power and poisoned the roots that the Valar loaded the remnants onto aerial vessels and set them traveling across the sky. Thus, for the first time, "day" and "night" had meaning on Middle Earth.

In fact, there are Elves on Middle Earth who still remember those dawnless days. Celeborn, for example was among the first group of Elves to awaken in Middle Earth, before the First Age. Thus, it was common lore among the Elves, and presumably the wise men of Middle Earth, that the sun and moon were just vessels of holy power that coursed through the skies.

Of course, because of that, trying to drop the ring into the sun of Middle Earth would have been pretty useless, since their sun *isn't* a hot ball of fusion reactions.