Afghan 'health link' to uranium

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Afghan 'health link' to uranium

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Afghan 'health link' to uranium
BBC wrote:Doctors in Afghanistan say rates of some health problems affecting children have doubled in the last two years.

Some scientists say the rise is linked to use of weapons containing depleted uranium (DU) by the US-led coalition that invaded the country in 2001.

A Canadian research group found very high levels of uranium in Afghans during tests just after the invasion.

A US forces spokesman denied its weapons were affecting the health of Afghans or the country's environment.

But claims made in the BBC World Service One Planet programme suggest the invasion may have left an unwelcome legacy for the country's environment and the health of its people.

Doctors in Kabul and Kandahar showed data indicating that the incidence of a number of health conditions, including birth defects, has doubled in under two years.

"We have premature births and malformations," said one doctor, who wished to remain anonymous, in one of the main maternity and neo-natal hospitals in the country.

"Malformations include neural tube defects and malformation of limbs; for example, the head is smaller than normal, or the head is larger than normal, or there is a big mass on the back of the baby.

"We don't know what is the cause of these malformations."

Heavy metal

The Canada-based Uranium Medical Research Centre (UMRC) believes the cause might be depleted uranium.

In 2002 and 2003 the group ran programmes analysing urine from Afghans.

In some, it found levels of uranium hundreds of times greater than in Gulf War veterans.

Asaf Durakovic, URMC's president and a former US army adviser, believes that exposure to DU weapons may have brought a rise in birth defects as well as "symptoms of muscular-skeletal pains, immune system disorders, lung disease, and eventually cancer".

Depleted uranium and natural uranium contain different ratios of two isotopes of the metal.

So scientists can tell whether a person has been exposed to the natural form, or to DU.

DU is used in armour-piercing shells because its density means it can penetrate further than other metals.

Dr Durakovic said his research showed that in Afghanistan, coalition forces had also used DU in "bunker buster" bombs, which can penetrate tens of metres into the soil.

"In Afghanistan it has to be... a weapon that destroys not only bunkers or caves, but also penetrates through the soil and through the fragile environment of the mountains."

Strange fruit

Villagers near the Tora Bora mountains, scene of a massive coalition attack in 2001 aimed at forcing Osama bin Laden out of a cave complex where he was believed to be hiding, suspect the bombs brought an increase in diseases and other problems.

"There was a strange smell, and most of the trees here did not yield fruit," recounted Yusuf Khan.

Another villager, Bakhtawar, said: "There were three or four babies born in our area whose arms and legs and faces were not normal; they were malformed."

But Faizullah Kakar, Afghanistan's deputy health minister, countered: "Health defects are common in Afghanistan.

"We want to find out if it is nutritional deficiency or environmental contamination with certain radiation that is doing it."

Disputed claims

The US military rejects claims that it used DU-containing bunker busters in Afghanistan.

It also denies allegations that the weapons it used in Afghanistan are affecting health and the environment.

"We don't use depleted uranium in Afghanistan; we don't have a requirement to use that," said Major Chris Belcher, spokesman for the coalition forces.

But he said such weapons might have been used in the past.

"I don't have any knowledge of what might have been used in 2001 and 2002. If there was an armour threat, the DU rounds would have been used to counter that threat."

Dr C Ross Anthony from the Rand Corporation, the US think-tank, suggested use of DU ordnance would have been light in Afghanistan.

"With very few of them (DU weapons) being used, it is hard for me to imagine that much of a real environmental problem exists," he said.

What next?

Some scientific experts suggested performing further research into the alleged damage caused by weapons used in the country.

But officials in Afghanistan's newly established National Environmental Protection Agency said they did not have the necessary equipment or expertise to investigate properly.

And Chris Alexander from the United Nations Assistance Mission for Afghanistan (UNAMA) acknowledged it was a concern, but said: "We have no idea what the scale is, nor do we have special knowledge about environmental implications."

Asaf Durakovic would prefer that concrete measures be taken now.

"The best thing is to relocate the population; people have to be moved from the areas that have been highly contaminated to safe areas to provide medical testing and medical care."

Following the use of DU weapons in Iraq and the Balkans, the World Health Organization (WHO) researched the impact on health and the environment.

It concluded, as did a 2001 European Union enquiry into the Balkans conflict, that DU posed little threat.

A senior WHO official told One Planet it had not received any request from Afghan authorities to investigate the current situation.
But Faizullah Kakar, Afghanistan's deputy health minister, countered: "Health defects are common in Afghanistan. "We want to find out if it is nutritional deficiency or environmental contamination with certain radiation that is doing it."
Or maybe it's because they marry their cousins, generation after generation.
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Post by The Spartan »

Even assuming that DU rounds are that much of a concern have we actually been using them enough to cause a problem? Would the Soviets? I could be underestimating the situation, but I can't imagine there'd be enough of an armor threat, even during the Soviet invasion to justify wide spread use of DU rounds.
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Post by Kanastrous »

Did the Soviets actually have much by way of DU-worthy targets, to shoot at?
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Post by Qwerty 42 »

I don't know much about the munition, so could someone tell me what the benefits of DU shells are anyway?
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Post by Broomstick »

DU is very dense, thus the projectiles have the advantages that come with great density. I've also heard they are useful in penetrating armor
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Re: Afghan 'health link' to uranium

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A Canadian research group found very high levels of uranium in Afghans during tests just after the invasion.
Question: do the Afghan mountains have naturally occurring uranium ore?
"We have premature births and malformations," said one doctor, who wished to remain anonymous, in one of the main maternity and neo-natal hospitals in the country.

"Malformations include neural tube defects and malformation of limbs; for example, the head is smaller than normal, or the head is larger than normal, or there is a big mass on the back of the baby.

"We don't know what is the cause of these malformations."
Then they're fucking retards - it's been known since the mid-19th Century that neural tube defects are associated with poor maternal nutrition. In the 20th Century this "malnutrition" link was refined to be closely associated with a lack of folic acid in the diet. Afghanistan has been suffering poverty and war for how long...?

Neural tube defects are not linked to DU, but how much more convenient to blame DU than to have to admit the country's infrastructure is fucked up and people aren't eating well.
In 2002 and 2003 the group ran programmes analysing urine from Afghans.

In some, it found levels of uranium hundreds of times greater than in Gulf War veterans.
Again, do the areas these people come from have any naturally occuring uranium deposits? Gulf vets are heavily exposed to DU, yet their urine levels are not so high - unless Afghans are eating the shit in large quantities something seems fishy.
"symptoms of muscular-skeletal pains, immune system disorders, lung disease, and eventually cancer".
Of course, a bazillion other things cause these problems - starvation, as I learned last year, can certainly cause "muscular-skeletal pains" and it can certainly fuck up your immune system. Lung problems? Do these people smoke? If yes, that might also explain some cancer, right?
Depleted uranium and natural uranium contain different ratios of two isotopes of the metal.
Yes, and DU is less radioactive than naturally occurring uranium ore because the more radioactive isotopes have been removed - hence "depleted".
DU is used in armour-piercing shells because its density means it can penetrate further than other metals.
^ That's why it's used.
Dr Durakovic said his research showed that in Afghanistan, coalition forces had also used DU in "bunker buster" bombs, which can penetrate tens of metres into the soil.
That would make sense, although I doubt you'll find concrete confirmation of that anywhere.
"In Afghanistan it has to be... a weapon that destroys not only bunkers or caves, but also penetrates through the soil and through the fragile environment of the mountains."
But, of course, it's OK for the Afghans and Taliban to blow the shit out of that "fragile environment" in the name of God, right?
Another villager, Bakhtawar, said: "There were three or four babies born in our area whose arms and legs and faces were not normal; they were malformed."
3 or 4 out of how many total? 3% birth defects is a normal rate in areas with excellent medical care and modern pre-natal care. In an area with less medical care available this would be higher. Until you know how large the pool of babies those "3 or 4" are pulled out of this means jackshit.
But Faizullah Kakar, Afghanistan's deputy health minister, countered: "Health defects are common in Afghanistan.
^ lack of medical care, poor nutrition, warfare, etc....
"We want to find out if it is nutritional deficiency or environmental contamination with certain radiation that is doing it."
Nutritional deficiency is much more likely to be the case.
"We don't use depleted uranium in Afghanistan; we don't have a requirement to use that," said Major Chris Belcher, spokesman for the coalition forces.
Again - we need to know if uranium sources occur naturally in that area of the world.
"The best thing is to relocate the population; people have to be moved from the areas that have been highly contaminated to safe areas to provide medical testing and medical care."
Would be a fucking shame if you moved people from a supposedly contaminated area to a "pristine' area that had naturally occurring uranium ores, wouldn't it?
Following the use of DU weapons in Iraq and the Balkans, the World Health Organization (WHO) researched the impact on health and the environment.

It concluded, as did a 2001 European Union enquiry into the Balkans conflict, that DU posed little threat.
And what threat there is, is largely kidney damage due to the chemical properties of uranium, NOT radiation.
Or maybe it's because they marry their cousins, generation after generation.
Yet another factor to take into account.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Broomstick wrote:I've also heard they are useful in penetrating armor
That's exclusively what they are used for, which is why I'm also finding these claims hard to believe: There are simply aren't many targets in Afghanistan that you would use DU rounds on, either now or back in 2001. I'm also not aware of any "bunker buster" aerial bombs that use depleted uranium.
Question: do the Afghan mountains have naturally occurring uranium ore?
Well, I seem to recall some uranium deposits were found in Helmand Province, and that illegal mining of it is a chronic concern.
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Post by Ender »

Any mountain region is going to have a higher background radiation to begin with due to thermal inversion. The natural radon will remain in the valleys and be more concentrated there while lighter, warmer gases rise and float away. In New York it got high enough to set off the radiation detectors as a matter of routine (but we still treated it like a real reactor accident anyways for training value and to cover our asses. EVERY FREAKING TIME)
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Post by starslayer »

DU is not, and never has been, the cause of any radiation sickness that I know of. That is not to say it isn't radioactive, as it obviously is, but it is almost all U-238, which has a half-life of 4.5 billion years. Add to that the fact that it is primarily an alpha emitter, and you have something that is just as dangerous as any other toxic heavy metal. If you don't ingest it, it won't hurt you. You can handle the stuff with your bare hands for years and not have any ill effects, as the radiation is blocked by your clothes, a thick sheet of paper, or your top-most (that is, dead) layer of skin.

That being said, DU could be the cause of at least some of the problems being mentioned (though I doubt it). Uranium by itself is toxic, though its soluble compounds are not. Uranium salts are the main concern, as they can cause irreversible kidney damage or lodge in the lungs. I very much doubt that any of these people have ingested such salts, and in any case, the symptoms given do not match any uranium toxicity descriptions I was able to find.

The main reason why DU is used in AP rounds has already been covered, but uranium is also pyrophoric. This means that when uranium is finely powdered or sliced into thin enough strips, it will autoignite at room temperature. So now do we not only heavy toxic penetrator fragments flying through the tank, we have heavy toxic flaming penetrator fragments. So even if you don't kill the crew with the shot itself (unlikely), you can still cause a fire, if I have my analysis correct.
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Post by CJvR »

Not really surprising. It is URANIUM!!! And everyone knows that stuff is EVIL INCARNATE!

Obviously uranium is a heavy metal and not particulary healthy to be around, especially after it has been used since it tend to burn when it strikes it's target IIRC. But that's it. It is not a mini A-bomb, a dirty bomb or used reactor fuel as some, with skulls denser than uranium, seem to think.

This pops up whenever the US fire a weapon anywhere in the world for political reasons, it is easy to mobilized the ignorant by scaring then with URANIUM... AAAH! Runaway!
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Post by The Spartan »

Broomstick wrote:DU is very dense, thus the projectiles have the advantages that come with great density. I've also heard they are useful in penetrating armor
I know that. That's why I'm asking. I wouldn't have thought there would be that many hard targets requiring a DU round to create enough of a problem.
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Post by SirNitram »

The Spartan wrote:
Broomstick wrote:DU is very dense, thus the projectiles have the advantages that come with great density. I've also heard they are useful in penetrating armor
I know that. That's why I'm asking. I wouldn't have thought there would be that many hard targets requiring a DU round to create enough of a problem.
I believe some US military vehicles carry only DU for ammunition, not a 'Press here to fuck shit up' to load the DU.

Uranium salts, background radiation.. Jeez, folks. It's a heavy metal being shot at people. The dust will kill. Heavy metal poisoning, everyone remembers that, right? Still a question of if enough was put into the air in these regions, but after five years of fighting, I'd not say it's impossible.
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Post by Mr Bean »

The Spartan wrote:
Broomstick wrote:DU is very dense, thus the projectiles have the advantages that come with great density. I've also heard they are useful in penetrating armor
I know that. That's why I'm asking. I wouldn't have thought there would be that many hard targets requiring a DU round to create enough of a problem.
DU rounds are meant for Bunkers and tanks, not for shooting at infantry, It would not surprise me in the least considering the state of the Afghan military pre invasion, and the insurgant work post invasion that all tanks went into combat with High Explosive rounds loaded. The chances of stumbling across an intact tank are remoted and bunkers don't advance so again they would have time to switch.


Lets review weapon systems that use DU
Tanks, Both the Brits and American tanks in A-Stan can fire DU, but said rounds are designed for killing tanks and bunkers

The Bradley has them as an option, again no idea how often they were used since HE would do the job much better targeting infantry and soft-skinned IFV that the Taliban used

The A-10, The A-10 fires nothing but DU rounds from it's 30mm main gun, if there's a place for dust from DU's to come from, it's from A-10's

The Harrier fires DU rounds as well, no idea how often they were used in A-Stan


And the Apache/Cobra/SuperCobra's main 20mm fires DU rounds but not only DU rounds it also has HE available.

I might be forgetting one or two, but the main place that DU would come from is the A-10, it saw use in A-Stan and DU is all it fires. Harrier as well prehaps, but most other helios and ground vechicals HE was much more likley to be used.

What we could use is a declassifed after-action report on the total amount of DU rounds fired in A-stan, but given the complete lack of armored targets in that country I suspect the number fired would be relatively low

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Post by Wanderer »

WHO take on DU.

Lets see:
They fail to mention Iraq, where DU is constantly being fired by A-10s, Abrams, and Bradleys into sandy, windy areas which spreads the DU dust around.

Hell there are still knocked out Tanks from the 1991 war still around which go crazy on the geiger counters when you approach them.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

SirNitram wrote:I believe some US military vehicles carry only DU for ammunition
Nope. Not true at all.
Mr Bean wrote:The A-10, The A-10 fires nothing but DU rounds from it's 30mm main gun, if there's a place for dust from DU's to come from, it's from A-10's
The GAU-8 actually does have HEI rounds available, and even when loaded with AP ammo, the gun would have something like 1 HEI for every 4 AP.
The Harrier fires DU rounds as well, no idea how often they were used in A-Stan
As far as I know, the 25mm DU rounds for the GAU-12 have been withdrawn from service and the last time I'm aware of them being used was Desert Storm.
And the Apache/Cobra/SuperCobra's main 20mm fires DU rounds but not only DU rounds it also has HE available.
I know for sure the Apache's 30mm gun doesn't fire DU cartridges; the standard round is a HE dual-purpose cartridge that is basically a combined HEAT/fragmentation warhead. I'm not aware of the existence of any 20mm DU cartridges that the Cobra would be able to use. The Navy once used DU cartridges in their 20mm CIWS guns, but they haven't been in service for about 20 years.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Ma Deuce wrote:
I know for sure the Apache's 30mm gun doesn't fire DU cartridges; the standard round is a HE dual-purpose cartridge that is basically a combined HEAT/fragmentation warhead. I'm not aware of the existence of any 20mm DU cartridges that the Cobra would be able to use..
A Google search turned them up as a possible ammo listing under the weapon.

More and more people are switching over to Tungsten instead of DU. Naval use will remain.

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Post by [R_H] »

I did some quick reading about "bunker busters" and their penetrators. According to the intro page,
Defeat of hard and deeply buried targets continues to be of great interest due to the ever-increasing challenge of destroying enemy assets housed either in tunnels or in deeply buried bunkers. Hardening techniques include construction of facilities, many of which are deep underground with multiple layers of reinforced concrete, rock rubble, and/or earth overburden. Other hardened targets include operations within caves, tunnels, and mountains built using rapidly improving construction equipment exported by allies and adversaries on a large scale. Examples include enemy command and control facilities, air defense facilities, facilities for the production, storage, and deployment of weapons including weapons of mass destruction, surface to surface missile launch sites, aircraft storage sites, artillery sites.

Potential solutions include (but are not limited to) Special Forces, conventional short or long range ballistic missiles (land or sea launched), cruise missiles, direct attack munitions, and standoff weapons. In general, two avenues are available for destroying targets of these types: (1) an increase in the sectional pressure (weight per unit area) of a penetrator, and (2) an increase in penetrator impact velocity. Increasing penetrator weight (cross-sectional pressure) is done by using "dense metal ballast" i.e. some metal at least twice the density of steel, such as DU or Tungsten. This is not an attractive choice, since the trend is toward smaller, more mobile weapon systems. Therefore, an increase in impact velocity is the more desirable alternative. To survive high-velocity impact and destroy a hard or deeply burried target, the casing materials must exhibit excellent ultimate and yield tensile strengths, elongation,and toughness values.
I took a look at all the different penetrators, if there was any mention of the metal that the penetrator was, it was hardened steel or the Elgin steel alloy. The only exception was the BLU-116 Advanced Unitary Penetrator, which according to some has a DU penetrator, because in the patent for the bomb it is stated that
The penetrating body 24 in the illustrative embodiment is designed for improved target penetrating capability. The penetrating body 24 includes a case formed of a hard, dense material, such as steel, tungsten, or depleted uranium.
In the GlobalSecurity page about the BLU-116, there's no mention of DU, only
Similar in size and shape to the BLU-109, the AUP warhead consists of a steel case penetrator filled with high explosive and enclosed by an aluminum shroud
More specifically, this steel case is
an elongated narrow diameter case made of a tough nickel-cobalt steel alloy called 9430M
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

[R_H] wrote: I took a look at all the different penetrators, if there was any mention of the metal that the penetrator was, it was hardened steel or the Elgin steel alloy. The only exception was the BLU-116 Advanced Unitary Penetrator, which according to some has a DU penetrator, because in the patent for the bomb it is stated that
The penetrating body 24 in the illustrative embodiment is designed for improved target penetrating capability. The penetrating body 24 includes a case formed of a hard, dense material, such as steel, tungsten, or depleted uranium.
Its possible BLU-116 has a concrete piercing cap made of DU, but DU is not a suitable material for building an actual hollow bomb casing. Every use of DU for munitions is solid, disregarding tiny holes drilled for tracer fillings on APFSDS rounds.
Mr Bean wrote: A Google search turned them up as a possible ammo listing under the weapon.

More and more people are switching over to Tungsten instead of DU. Naval use will remain.
Well then Google is wrong. The US Army has only three types of ammo for the M230 chain gun, HEDP, HEI and TP, none have any DU in them or any rational use for it (unless you want to go crazy and build a shaped charge with a DU liner… possible but no one is going to bother). Remember it’s only a 30x113 cartridge, originally developed for the bomber obliterating ADEN gun; the velocity is too low for kentic anti armor rounds to be very effective and you can’t use discarding sabot ammo on an aircraft least the light alloy sabots be sucked into the turbines. The A-10 fires a much longer 30mm cartridge; and the gun gains additional velocity from the plane flying at 400mph, and yet even then the performance of the DU rounds isn’t that great.
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Post by [R_H] »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Its possible BLU-116 has a concrete piercing cap made of DU, but DU is not a suitable material for building an actual hollow bomb casing. Every use of DU for munitions is solid, disregarding tiny holes drilled for tracer fillings on APFSDS rounds.
How large would such a cap be? Were so many bunker busters used that the DU dust thrown up from the caps could have caused these health problems?

And why isn't DU suitable for hollow casings etc?
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Post by Ma Deuce »

[R_H] wrote:How large would such a cap be?
I'd say around 20-25% of the weapon's total mass would be a good bet, but the cap could just as easily be tungsten as DU. In any case, the BLU-116 is the first earth penetrator where there even is the possibility of it using DU (all previous designs are confirmed to use steel), and since it was brand spanking new at the time (only a few hundred would have existed at most), I doubt very many would have been used in Afghanistan, if any at all.
And why isn't DU suitable for hollow casings etc?
Because it'd either be too soft or or too brittle for the bomb to hold together long enough to detonate on it's way through earth and concrete, depending on how it's treated (uranium naturally is a very soft metal, but is treated to be hard when made into AP rounds). DU may be very dense, but it simply lacks the structural strength of steel, which is why only completely solid DU projectiles are practical.
Wanderer wrote:Hell there are still knocked out Tanks from the 1991 war still around which go crazy on the geiger counters when you approach them.
That doesn't mean it's dangerously radioactive. What minuscule level of radiation DU emits consists mainly of Alpha particles, which frankly are not very dangerous: they can't even penetrate human skin; hell, a sheet of paper or a few inches of air will stop them. Ironically, one common civilian use of DU is actually radiation shielding, a role in which it is 5-6 times as effective as lead.
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