NO SPOILARZ - THE GTA IV THREAD

[Admiral Valdemar]

I honestly can't say I cared for GTA: SA at all, hence why it's the only one I never actually bought. Too many things just put me off, whereas GTA: VC was the one with the most longevity.

The only issues I can see with GTA IV are getting used to the controls for certain missions and the inevitable chases and scripted events mentioned above. The halos are fine, unless you're trying to spot something from two blocks away, they're perfectly visible. The "smart" targeting I Only ever use for a quick engagement of suppression fire. Otherwise, as with all auto-lock features in games, I disregard it when actually trying to be professional.

I, too, would love to see a remake of GTA: VC done in the style of GTA IV. Yes, it'd be a repeat of something already done, but the whole damn franchise is the same stuff, but better. If they make a GTA XIII with the amount of improvements seen in this game, I'd still buy it.

And honestly, the whole UK rendered in a game to explore with the same amazing content added to it? Are you willing to wait two decades for that? I'm not.

[Stark]

At the risk of sounding retarded, isn't the auto-aim turned off at the start anyway? No matter if I pulled or clicked the trigger, I only got free-aim until I manually activated auto-aim. It's useful for long-range stuff, but I found myself usually half-pulling to manually aim, so I turned it back off. I just wanted to try the 'smart' targeting.

In MP it's always off anyway, so there's little point getting used to it.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Auto-aim has always been on. After the first couple of shoot-outs I started to get used to the cops, I refrained from using it unless I needed to get shooting in a general area quickly. It's great for simple centre of mass shots at range when you've just been sprinting away and want cover fire, but I find it just better to aim myself. The system isn't unlike that in the 24 game, which was really the only shining and original factor of that game as another GTA clone. Despite getting GTA: VC for the PC and being used to the mouse, it's surprisingly easier to aim via console when you get used to it. The number of functions one controller has to have seems daunting, so I'm glad Rockstar managed to pull it off reasonably well. I know some titles where anything more in-depth than mashing buttons would lead to total failure because of retarded button combos.

I'm going to see about getting a Bluetooth headset today so I can go in MP. I'm intrigued by Anders and his Heat re-enaction and I was up till 5AM this morning playing (don't worry, I was also getting off pr0n. I'm not obsessed).

EDIT: Wait, PS Online games can't have Xbox Live players can they? Shit.

[Stark]

Um, no. My game defaulted to auto-aim in options at 'off'. Unless there's some tricky way to get locks with auto-aim set to off, my game defaults to free-aim only. I guess you have a PS3, though, going by your bluetooth needs.

And locks are great for long-range headshots. Sniping with SMG + cover = so game-breaking.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Funny. It seemed to have auto-aim on from the start with me. Meh.

And yeah, just remembered you're using the 360 version aren't you?

[Stark]

Funny. It seemed to have auto-aim on from the start with me. Meh.

And yeah, just remembered you're using the 360 version aren't you?

Yeah, and when I started I was all 'where is the smart auto-targeting', and had to hunt in the options for it. It's wierd that the defaults are different.

Then again, I'm not sure how easy it is to half-pull a sixaxis trigger; they're better than PS2 controllers, but still don't have that much play in them. Maybe it was a workaround?

[Admiral Valdemar]

Possibly. I find it pretty easy to use the SIXAXIS system where aiming is concerned. The triggers are massively useful for analogue control when driving and aiming, I'm sure I've used similar systems elsewhere.

Given this is the first game I've got with my newly acquired PS3 it took only ten minutes to figure out the controls and be off. The only niggle is perfecting using the system for bikes, boats and helos where tilting the controller can be used instead. That, and getting used to actively moving the camera when doing fast and hard turns. I could've sworn the camera wasn't so lax with following you in the previous games.

[Vympel]

Well I just ran into my first real frustration with the controls in the mission at the Old Hospital - I take out the drug dealers just fine, but I've gotten wasted both times the cops have showed up - the auto-lock feature is just plain broken in close quarters, and gamepad controllers, as ever, are fucking retarded for free-aim. I don't know how you put up with it, really.

Fuck knows how I'm going to beat this mission really.

[CaptHawkeye]

Well I just ran into my first real frustration with the controls in the mission at the Old Hospital - I take out the drug dealers just fine, but I've gotten wasted both times the cops have showed up -
.

What really grinds me is that if the cops kill you, even after you've completed the "kill X dude" objective in some missions, you still need to repeat the mission. What? You mean the drug dealer is just magically alive again?

[Starglider]

Worst story

It actually had a plot, unlike GTA3. I liked the riots near the end.

worst protaganist

Granted but some of the other characters were cool/funny.

huge stretches of nowhere to hide the streaming,

No, huge stretches of countryside for races and flying around over, which I liked. I miss the aircraft though of course I expected them to be unavailable in the first next-gen game.

a third city almost entirely devoid of purpose..

Apart from the pretty cool heist mission.

Enemies being less obvious is fine with me, but the 'smart' targeting is anything but and makes it unneccesarily hard to lock on to bad guys in a crowd.

Ease of on the left trigger and target switching works fine.

Ditching fire and rescue missions just seems like a logical progresion of the loss of 'video gamey-ness' that's evident through all the games since 3

Newsflash; this is a video game, not a holodeck. Having more silly missions available doesn't detract from the main story as you don't have to do them unless you want to.

I honestly can't say I cared for GTA: SA at all, hence why it's the only one I never actually bought. Too many things just put me off, whereas GTA: VC was the one with the most longevity.

There was a lot more stuff to do and a lot more variety in GTA:SA. I'll put up with a vaguely whiney protagonist for that.

Fuck knows how I'm going to beat this mission really.

That was annoying, but just work your way slowly out and you'll be fine.

[Admiral Valdemar]

What really grinds me is that if the cops kill you, even after you've completed the "kill X dude" objective in some missions, you still need to repeat the mission. What? You mean the drug dealer is just magically alive again?

That's no different to any other game. I don't complain in a flight-sim after whacking some military target only to die on the landing and have to redo the mission.

You just suck if the pigs get ya, sucka.

[Vympel]

No, it sucks if the control system is so fucking retarded that if a cop gets in your face, not only can you not shoot him point blank (for some reason the game thinks it's a good idea to ineffectually bash them with your gun) but the system won't lock on either, forcing you to slow-as-molasses slew the gun onto him if you're trying to get some distance on him to shoot him.

Fuck this mission is pissing me the fuck off. Fucking fuckity shit gay fuck gamepad bullshit control fucklame suck shit twat balls cuntwrapping fish dick ... crap.

I'm going to bed and trying it again tomorrow.

EDIT: needless to say, this is also the mission Ando's talking about:-

Grr. Following way too much time not playing the game (only just did the last Elizabeta mission) - I have to say that the aforementioned mission demonstrated just how horrid the gunplay mechanics are in close quarters. After MANY unsuccessful attempts to fight my way out of the building (stopped by me getting hung up on corners and then getting FUCKED by everyone) I just fucking legged it and got away scot free. Then on my way to meet Jacob got blindsided, knocked out of my car and fucking RUN OVER and killed.

So I have to start over. RIGHT FROM START. Finally I get it done. Thank god.

So two complaints.

1) Close quarters with many corners/doorways break the fucking cover and gunplay mechanics.

2) Again, if I finish a discrete section of a mission and have a second or third objective then let me restart the mission from THAT FUCKING POINT, not from RIGHT AT THE START TWO FUCKING ISLANDS AWAY.

I have no idea why they think it's a good idea to not have a checkpoint system in long fucking missions. That's an obscenely tedious relic that should've been long abandoned. I mean really. That's part of the utter tedium of replaying this fuckhole, could've-been-enjoyable-but-just-plain-sucks mission - the tedium of having to drive all the way back to the fucking mission start point.

[Starglider]

not only can you not shoot him point blank

Yeah, that's annoying. It makes a little bit of sense if you're using the assault rifle, but none if you're using the SMG.

On the plus side being able to fire the rocket launcher effectively from cover is a nice surprise.

Fucking fuckity shit gay fuck gamepad bullshit control fucklame suck shit twat balls cuntwrapping fish dick ... crap.

Hah, you too. I was mostly cursing the traffic for randomly ramming into me on the chase missions. Though it is also extremely annoying that you can't run while on the phone; the unskippable plot phone calls have a habit of coming up when I'm trying to escape from the police on foot.

1) Close quarters with many corners/doorways break the fucking cover and gunplay mechanics.

Writing a cover algorithm that works without hinting (which is pretty much essential given the size of the gameworld) is hard. If it's any consolation, I'm sure it'll improve in later iterations.

I have no idea why they think it's a good idea to not have a checkpoint system in long fucking missions. That's an obscenely tedious relic that should've been long abandoned.

Agree. The so-called 'hard core' gamers who can spend a week just playing the game bitch and whine about it being too easy, but frankly, just stick a stat or achievement in there for 'completed all missions without using checkpoints'. Uncheckpointed missions of this length are ok in games that are more predictable and under the player's control, but in GTA there's too much that can just randomly go wrong for it to be even vaguely justifiable.

[NeoGoomba]

I love the game. I'll stay out of the mechanics debate and merely say that all the little useless extras are wonderful. Watching Bas take a piss while screaming "GO AWAY IM DESTROYING MY LIVER!!", or hearing people bitch out Lazlo is priceless. The fact that its almost all inconsequential and there just for fun makes it that much more hilarious.

Its nice to finally have a GTA protagonist I can actually sympathize with. His little conversation with Faustin's wife early on did a great job to show just how messed up Niko's past was.

And damn, that CUBED or whatever puzzle game is addicting as hell. Its how I spend all my "friend missions" to the Strip Club

[Starglider]

Ok, new hate; utterly idiotic ally AI that dates from 1998.

I've been trying the boatyard mission, that has 5 minutes of boring driving a car and a truck across half the city, /then/ a shoot-out, then a boat chase where you have to take out two pursuers while protecting your ally. Here's what happened so far;

1) I started working my way around the back. Ally died.
2) I started methodically taking out the enemies. Ally died.
3) I kept up with ally. Died from crossfire.
4) Ditto but switched targets faster. Died when a target got close, the targeting refused to lock, and the enemy SMGed me to death at leisure.
5) Died because Nico randomly dropped out of cover mode just as I was firing the RPG, blowing myself up.
6) Cleared the warehouse mostly with grenades, ally bumped my boat on the way out of the harbour, instantly capsized and died.
7) Got tied up taking out one boat, other boat slipped past and killed my ally's boat.

This mission needs checkpoints (or rather one checkpoint, cutting out the 5 min drive, including finding replacement ammo/armor) more than any other one I've played.

EDIT : To add to the fun, one of the other missions I'm currently on is also a very long, boring drive followed by a huge firefight. In this one I got most of the way through before my ally ran right in front of me just as I was firing a rocket...

[Bounty]

I got to try the game a while and I can't say I'm that impressed. It looks like a really well-made game, don't get me wrong, but it feels more like "GTA III redone but better" than the absolute pinnacle of sandbox gaming the press is claiming it to be.

And the AI is still falling for the same stupid tricks. If you "lose" the cops in a chase, they just give up - even if they technically have you cornered. They don't remember your car, or your face, which is something Driver managed to pull off two years ago. It makes chases look less like Ronin and more like a Benny Hill skit.

[TheMuffinKing]

About these checkpoint complaints: I've found taxis to be an effective and quick way of getting to objectives. Granted I too would much rather not start from all over again.

[Starglider]

About these checkpoint complaints: I've found taxis to be an effective and quick way of getting to objectives. Granted I too would much rather not start from all over again.

That works well early on, but late in the game you have to do these long pre-firefight drives in specific cars.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I got to try the game a while and I can't say I'm that impressed. It looks like a really well-made game, don't get me wrong, but it feels more like "GTA III redone but better" than the absolute pinnacle of sandbox gaming the press is claiming it to be.

GTA III perfected is a pinnacle of gaming excellence. It sounds more like you're not keen on this style of game more than anything. This is far more worthy of accolades than Halo 3, for one thing.

And the AI is still falling for the same stupid tricks. If you "lose" the cops in a chase, they just give up - even if they technically have you cornered. They don't remember your car, or your face, which is something Driver managed to pull off two years ago. It makes chases look less like Ronin and more like a Benny Hill skit.

Because if that was how it worked, you'd never get away from the police and missions would be nigh on impossible. Driver isn't GTA and I don't see how the high level (three stars minimum) chases are all that easy when you're trying to complete objectives at the same time. You need a good stretch of road and a good car to escape from the LCPD, because you sure aren't going to destroy the whole police force. I've had plenty of awesome chases without the added burden of it being a continually ongoing thing I can't possibly escape from thanks to magical identification by the AI.

[Bounty]

GTA III perfected is a pinnacle of gaming excellence. It sounds more like you're not keen on this style of game more than anything.

Oh, I'm very keen on GTA, and I still think Vice City is one of the most fun games ever. It's just that I think the game would be a lot less frustrating if Rockstar focused on improving the guts of the game as much as they focused on bolting on extra content.

For example, cars in the whole GTA series seem to be able to do just two things: "go straight" and "slide". It may be realistic, in a way, but if that means you spin out when you as much as brush against a curb it sucks the fun out of the whole experience. Maybe that's what the fans and developers wanted, which is cool and all, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Driver isn't GTA and I don't see how the high level (three stars minimum) chases are all that easy when you're trying to complete objectives at the same time.

The chases aren't easy, but for all the wrong reasons. Cops try to ram you off the road for minor offences, you have to fight the controls every turn, the low-slung camera is horrible and you spend most of the chase backing out of the umpteenth traffic light you crashed into. Hard? Yes. Fun? Meh.

As for Driver, it did the GTA-style "open city, roaming cops" thing in Parallel Lines, and while that game doesn't come close to GTA IV it did have a better "wanted" and carchase system.

You need a good stretch of road and a good car to escape from the LCPD

See, that's my point, sort of: ideally, you'd need brains and guts to escape. Dive down an alley, lose the cops in traffic, get out of their LOS, not IV's "you need to get out of this arbitrary circle and then you win by default".

ETA after your edit:

I've had plenty of awesome chases without the added burden of it being a continually ongoing thing I can't possibly escape from thanks to magical identification by the AI.

Who says the ID had to permanent? D: PL had separate wanted levels for your car and your character; you could swap cars out-of-sight and the cops'd be none the wiser. Even if they knew your face you could ditch the car, get a new one and as long as you behaved and stayed out of sight you could sneak away. In GTA, your only option is to run away fast; there's no room to be sneaky, even though it'd be easy to implement.

Unless I missed something.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Oh, I'm very keen on GTA, and I still think Vice City is one of the most fun games ever. It's just that I think the game would be a lot less frustrating if Rockstar focused on improving the guts of the game as much as they focused on bolting on extra content.

For example, cars in the whole GTA series seem to be able to do just two things: "go straight" and "slide". It may be realistic, in a way, but if that means you spin out when you as much as brush against a curb it sucks the fun out of the whole experience. Maybe that's what the fans and developers wanted, which is cool and all, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Agreed. The obstacles at least don't stop you dead like in previous driving games where just tapping a lamp post meant instant deceleration. Most all objects that can be broken will be smashed, rather than send your car off into the air for a kilometre. I remember in the original Driver playing the timed game where you try and evade the cops as long as possible and having them come at me from all sides and basically throw me vertically into the air. Realistic it wasn't, but it was damn fun. This also happened in earlier GTA games when hitting anything that was remotely stuck to the ground. Glad to see most of that has been rectified.

The chases aren't easy, but for all the wrong reasons. Cops try to ram you off the road for minor offences, you have to fight the controls every turn, the low-slung camera is horrible and you spend most of the chase backing out of the umpteenth traffic light you crashed into. Hard? Yes. Fun? Meh.

As for Driver, it did the GTA-style "open city, roaming cops" thing in Parallel Lines, and while that game doesn't come close to GTA IV it did have a better "wanted" and carchase system.

I found the cam tricky at first, but it's so much easier when you learn to use the camera control at the same time. I may pine for the camera in GTA: VC, yet, I feel it's less restricting now I've got used to it. Same with close-quarters combat, I really can't see why people complain. I've managed to take out five cops with only a pistol when in a cramped alley way before using auto-lock and free aim. Sure, a mouse would be easier to grasp, not that this means it's impossible or even hard to do with an analogue stick.

See, that's my point, sort of: ideally, you'd need brains and gust to escape. Dive down an alley, lose the cops in traffic, get out of their LOS, not IV's "you need to get out of this arbitrary circle and then you win by default".

Well, to be fair, that circle makes the system easier to understand at a glance, so you know how to evade, though I could see an MGS style LOS idea being useful. The helo tracking you makes this larger circle make more sense and the cops can't see you in that circle all the time. It's just there to show that they're patrolling that area, because they naturally can't search the whole city for one guy at the same time here. I've managed to sneak around within the patrol circle without being seen, though you need bridges and subways to evade the eye-in-the-sky.

ETA after your edit:

Who says the ID had to permanent? D: PL had separate wanted levels for your car and your character; you could swap cars out-of-sight and the cops'd be none the wiser. Even if they knew your face you could ditch the car, get a new one and as long as you behaved and stayed out of sight you could sneak away. In GTA, your only option is to run away fast; there's no room to be sneaky, even though it'd be easy to implement.

Unless I missed something.

There are still spray shops you can use, but Rockstar wanted to get out of that habit because it was a bit arcadey and too easy in certain respects. In GTA IV, you can still use one, just it takes 6 hours off your time and you can only go in when no cop has you in his sights, even when in the patrol circle.

Sure, the game's not perfect; no game is. It is, however, very polished, loaded with content and uses the tried and tested gameplay that is quite simply far too much fun. It's simple, yet highly effective. I remember playing the original GTA on demo disk on the PSX for hours rather than some of the games I'd actually bought, it was just so simple but with depth when you wanted it.

[Starglider]

For example, cars in the whole GTA series seem to be able to do just two things: "go straight" and "slide".

I suspect this is a problem with your technique. It is possible to do controlled drifting in GTA4, it's just difficult. Hammer the brakes and leave the steering at full lock and you will just spin and slide uncontrollably. I'm ok at drifting cars but I usually crash if I try it on a bike.

The chases aren't easy, but for all the wrong reasons. Cops try to ram you off the road for minor offences,

You have an interesting definition of 'minor offence'. You can speed and smash up cars and scenery all you like without being chased. You can even tap cop cars. It's just if you actually kill people or seriously damage the cop's car that you get some attention. Amazingly I've seen idiots on gaming forums complaining about this. 'Oh noes I can't murder people in sight of the cops without them coming after me!'

the low-slung camera is horrible

It's annoying that the camera vertically re-centers itself behind your car constantly. It would be nice if there was a way to lock the angle (e.g. by clicking the right stick).

and you spend most of the chase backing out of the umpteenth traffic light you crashed into.

The problem with this is that the more of the scenery that becomes destructible, the more annoying the remaining things you can't destroy are. In GTA4 the annoying things are trees (what, I can ram down a streetlight easily but can't even budge a tiny sapling?), scafolding and chains (I can't understand why you can smash through normal fences but not chains between bollards).

Who says the ID had to permanent? D: PL had separate wanted levels for your car and your character; you could swap cars out-of-sight and the cops'd be none the wiser.

Yes, that would be good, though of course it shouldn't work on 4+ stars or in missions where you have to keep the same vehicle.

[Bounty]

I suspect this is a problem with your technique. It is possible to do controlled drifting in GTA4, it's just difficult. Hammer the brakes and leave the steering at full lock and you will just spin and slide uncontrollably. I'm ok at drifting cars but I usually crash if I try it on a bike.

It's not a problem with my technique. Even on the GTA games I played extensively I never got comfortable with the driving mechanic. In fact, on my last VC install I manually upped the grip and brakes on most of the cars and it made the driving one hell of a lot less infuriating.

Ever since III the cars in the series felt like empty cardboard boxes on an ice skating rink. The inertia system was weird and floaty in the last games and it's weird and floaty in IV; when sandwiching a car between a wall and another vehicle makes it hover up, you know there's something fishy going on.

You have an interesting definition of 'minor offence'

Drove through a toll booth, didn't pay the $5, cops ram me into a traffic jam killing half a dozen people. Police in the game are either "off" and do nothing or "on" and in full-on Robocop everything must DIE! mode. There's no escalation of force except for bringing in more cops and SWAT (NOOSE?) teams. Whatever happened to PIT manoeuvres?

I don't have a problem with cops being chase-happy; if anything, they could stand to be a bit more vigilant. However, once the chase begins, I expect them to have some sense of perspective and not run over schoolchildren just to catch a thus-far non-violent car thief.

The problem with this is that the more of the scenery that becomes destructible, the more annoying the remaining things you can't destroy are.

Or you could implement a system where hitting a non-moving obstacle just shoves you away at a slight angle, but still keeps you moving in the right direction. It's gotten better in IV, though.

The problem here isn't so much that there are indestructible items, it's that you have a hard time missing them thanks to the poor handling.

[Starglider]

Even on the GTA games I played extensively I never got comfortable with the driving mechanic.

Ok, I admit that it would probably be more fun if the cars handled like they do in Burnout.

Police in the game are either "off" and do nothing or "on" and in full-on Robocop everything must DIE! mode. There's no escalation of force except for bringing in more cops and SWAT (NOOSE?) teams. Whatever happened to PIT manoeuvres?

Frankly the cops AI in GTA:SA was better, plus they had stingers (spike strips) and weren't completely helpless if you got into a helicopter. Plus WTF Rockstar, no tank? I don't care if tanks being sent out after one man are realistic or not, joyriding tanks was one of the most fun things in all the previous games (from the very first GTA onwards).

However, once the chase begins, I expect them to have some sense of perspective and not run over schoolchildren just to catch a thus-far non-violent car thief.

Again, the basic problem is that writing game AI is hard (particularly on the PS3 with its sucktastic processor design). The engine has been rewritten from scratch and a lot of things have been reset to GTA3 era sophistication. A lot of coding effort seems to have gone on making the world seem more complete instead of making the core game mechanics better (which the exception of the cover system, but that also still needs work). If the cops are improved back to GTA:SA standard (hopefully with a somewhat reduced tendency to drive into walls and off cliffs) in the next game I will be happy..

Or you could implement a system where hitting a non-moving obstacle just shoves you away at a slight angle, but still keeps you moving in the right direction.

That could work in cases where there's a little concave or convex section on a wall that you otherwise would have glanced off (but instead get stopped dead).

[weemadando]

About these checkpoint complaints: I've found taxis to be an effective and quick way of getting to objectives. Granted I too would much rather not start from all over again.

It's not just the drive to the target...

It's also like in that Elizabeta mission where you have the first section of a mission, in this case this is a gun-fight, which I didn't have any problems with, it was nice and simple, but very, very, tedious (especially after a few attempts). There's a fucking cutscene right in the middle of the mission (grabbing the drugs) so why can't I restart from there? It saves me not only the drive, but the zero-threat initial firefight which I have to go through.