SD.net's World OOC/Discussion thread MK II

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-04 12:06pm

The Zubr is described in your post as a "small" naval hovercraft. What?

Five Zubrs (75mil) is 375 million. Twenty Dzheyran (45mil) is 900 million. 20 Murenas (30mil) is 600 million. All in all, that's approaching like... 2 billion dollars. Woah.

I guess that'll be the "big thing" in 2010's military expenditures, along with the F-14 modifications and the ABM and SAMs.

I gotta be careful, can't spend too much moneys on militarization. That's expensive and I'm no gung-ho nation. Yet someone must defend the smaller FUN nations from piracy and aggression, and since I'm one of the bigger FUN nations, that responsibility falls to me.

I guess I could ease up on that by giving other FUN nations allowance money to buy their own guns...

EDIT:

Arrr... and Stas has a point. Will Destroyers be rendered obsolete in the archipelagic nature of the New World? How about Frigates? Will my deployment of 40 Frigates be ineffectual?

Aircraft carriers?

I wonder if I can have a FUN-spanning air defense network by building lots of cheap airfields scattered all over the FUN islands and investing in STOL aircraft (like those Saab planes). The Shroomanian Air Force and the FUN's other airforces, working in a combined command structure, can work effectively by island-hopping and refueling in the many airfields dotting the Central Sea FUN nations - we can even use highways!

Also, I think I shall invest in the private airplane market. MacMillan shall sell Cessnas to private pilots all over!

And the Zeppelins!

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-05-04 12:13pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I gotta be careful, can't spend too much moneys on militarization. That's expensive and I'm no gung-ho nation. Yet someone must defend the smaller FUN nations from piracy and aggression, and since I'm one of the bigger FUN nations, that responsibility falls to me.

I guess I could ease up on that by giving other FUN nations allowance money to buy their own guns...

If I were in your shoes, I'd go for a minimalist military and rely on OMSK/FUN collective action for military security.

You make up for this by pouring more resources into a paramilitary police force type organization that stays active by tackling pirates, smugglers, etc in the region, so the rest of OMSK can contribute token patrols.

Small military -- powerful Coast Guard.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-04 12:23pm

H'okay. After I get my new F-14s and the hovercrafts for my Marines, by 2011 I'm gonna drop military expenditure considerably - with the remaining "big" item being the SAMs and ABM.

The military I've already developed will thus be used to form the backbone of a joint FUN Self-Defense Force (the FUN-SDF?). So the fellow FUN nations won't have to break their backs trying to build militaries of their own.

Then I'll concentrate on the Coast Guard thing.

How's that sound?

PeZook, do you think the ICSA is up for the challenge of a standardized Coast Guard boat/ship to kick those Goddamn Libertopians off the Central Sea?

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2008-05-04 12:29pm

I imagine Stas is not going to like my most recent post.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-04 12:32pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote: PeZook, do you think the ICSA is up for the challenge of a standardized Coast Guard boat/ship to kick those Goddamn Libertopians off the Central Sea?

Sure, we already build armed FCS ships. It will take some R&D, but we can do that.

In fact, I'll be finishing the ISCA budget tomorrow, so I think I can allocate funds and capacity for R&D and prototyping of an affordable, mass-produced cutter.

I think we should have three basic types: a light, fast attack hydrofoil armed with an automatic 40mm-75mm cannons, machine guns and some sort of active anti-rpg system, a classic light cutter/patrol boat for customs inspections and the like, and a larger 1-2 thousand GRT cutter able to operate a helicopter.

In fact, when coupled with an FCS-based heli tender/refuelling ship, a force based on these three craft could deal with any pirate threat. If more pirate frigates show up, we can use heavier ships to deal with them, or arm the hydrofoils with missiles.

As for defence, I think that a good approach would be to proliferate ASMs and SAMs all over the Central Sea, and build a strong defensive air force.

The Central Sea is already a shitty place to operate carriers in, and Blackbeards deployed all over are more than enough to discourage it further.

With a good air defence system and an ABM shield, the FUN should be pretty secure from the only real threat vector (Saddamistan).

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-04 12:32pm

Awww.... Loinstar, you shouldn't have!

EDIT:

And, oh shit, by forming the FUN we have become a potential target of the Super Saddam Special!

Fuck!

EDIT 2:

While I might decide to decommission my Destroyers, Frigates are probably still a-okay for the job of archipelagic patrolling, right?

And the SAF is a strong defensive airforce, and a homoerotic one to boot!

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-04 01:16pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote: While I might decide to decommission my Destroyers, Frigates are probably still a-okay for the job of archipelagic patrolling, right?

And the SAF is a strong defensive airforce, and a homoerotic one to boot!

Why would you decomission your destroyers?

If you can chose between frigates and destroyers, axe the frigates.

You can fight pirates with patrol boats and revenue cutters, but if you need punch, then a destroyer is far preferrable to a frigate:

1) It handles better in rough seas

2) It has more endurance

3) It has far superior armaments and can mount better CIWS and far superior radars (due to larger superstructure)

Really, a Burke-class will pretty much own a Perry or Halifax nearly every time. If pirates get their hands on some frigates like they already did, it's better to send in a Burke rather than risk one of your frigates or a squadron of hydrofoils (had those pirates Canissia sank actually been competent, the entire foil squadron would've been toast)

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-04 01:26pm

Hmm... but the seas aren't rough, precisely why Stas is investing in erkanoplans and hovercrafts. As for endurance... we do have a lot of friendly neighboring ports. Armaments... the Halifax carries a helicopter (for badassery's sake, a navilized Hind!) and is probably analogous to our hippotheticel 3rd cutter variant (the GRT cutter).

Maybe I should give the Halifax to the Coast Guard (and not decommission the Destroyers)?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-04 01:37pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hmm... but the seas aren't rough, precisely why Stas is investing in erkanoplans and hovercrafts. As for endurance... we do have a lot of friendly neighboring ports. Armaments... the Halifax carries a helicopter (for badassery's sake, a navilized Hind!) and is probably analogous to our hippotheticel 3rd cutter variant (the GRT cutter).

The seas aren't rough most of the time.

An ekranoplan will just stay in port during a storm, a naval vessel won't always have that luxury, and the Burke will handle better in such a situation.

A Flight IIA Burke carries two Seahawks - I suppose it depends on on what exact model you have, really, and your proposed threat matrix.

If all you ever plan to do with your navy is anti-piracy patrols, then frigates will probably be sufficient, plus enough destroyers to have a few deployed at all times (so that one is available when absolutely needed).

If you want the navy to actually be able to fight surface combatants, then destroyers and cruisers are a must.

Myself, I figure I won't fight any surface wars - any possible enemy would annihilate me completely, anyway. So I want to have enough Burkes to have one deployed at all times, and enough hydrofoils and cutters to provide escort to merchants who need them.

Plus ground-based ASMs as part of the defence system, to deter people with huge surface navies - see the JSAD concept.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Maybe I should give the Halifax to the Coast Guard (and not decommission the Destroyers)?

The halifax is pretty big for Coast Guard roles, though, but it's a plan

Every decision will have its tradeoffs, so you should probably conduct a thorough analysis first. Myself, I think you should keep a strong blue water navy, and let smaller nations provide the patrol boats and cutters (since they can afford them and all).

Don't think that destroyers and frigates are useless in the Central Sea. Ekranoplans are a threat, but they have plenty of drawbacks, and support of land-based naval aviation is a force multiplier from Hell with all those little islands.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2008-05-04 01:45pm

True, that. Pirates don't want to fuck with big mean Shroomania, but for those Goddamn Libertopians, the smaller FUN nations are game. I guess I should help the smaller nations get formidable Coast Guards. Yeah, that is the best solution.

Decue · Post by **Decue** » 2008-05-04 01:59pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:True, that. Pirates don't want to fuck with big mean Shroomania, but for those Goddamn Libertopians, the smaller FUN nations are game. I guess I should help the smaller nations get formidable Coast Guards. Yeah, that is the best solution.

I don't know about that, they got one hell of a beating when they tried to fuck me over.

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-05-04 02:16pm

PeZook wrote:Really, a Burke-class will pretty much own a Perry or Halifax nearly every time. If pirates get their hands on some frigates like they already did, it's better to send in a Burke rather than risk one of your frigates or a squadron of hydrofoils (had those pirates Canissia sank actually been competent, the entire foil squadron would've been toast)

Yeah, I was making them up to be a rogue element of the Libertopian navy, controlled by one of the three warlords, out scoring a little extra money for themselves-- they were operating dangerously understrength, with barely the manpower to run the engine, navigate, and fire off one or two weapons systems to cower unarmed victims into submission. I wanted to leave it open as to whether this was an officially sanctioned act by the warlord(s), or a semi-mutinous band that could be dispensed with.

Post by **Coyote** » 2008-05-04 02:19pm

Also, check out the Wiki entry on the Burkes; despite being in the Destroyer class they are powerfully armed, packing as much punch as many Cruisers. In fact, in some navies, they would be listed as Cruisers, really.

And also, most Frigates are dedicated anti-submarine platforms. Handy, to be sure, but needing some rework to be dedicated anti-ship combatants.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2008-05-04 02:26pm

Coyote wrote:Also, check out the Wiki entry on the Burkes; despite being in the Destroyer class they are powerfully armed, packing as much punch as many Cruisers. In fact, in some navies, they would be listed as Cruisers, really.

And also, most Frigates are dedicated anti-submarine platforms. Handy, to be sure, but needing some rework to be dedicated anti-ship combatants.

Well, a modern destroyer is something of s fusion between the "torpedo boat destroyer" of WWII and a cruiser.

It is best to think of modern frigates as cheap destroyers intended mostly for convoy escort (the Perry was designed to escort convoys and fight off Russian submarines in the event of WWII, while the Burke is a picket for CVBGs). They only have one rail missile launcher, a single CIWS system and one light gun, while the Burke sports VLS, two CIWS systems, two 127mm guns, a phased array radar...really, a Burke could probably take on several frigates and win.

If you want to compare a Burke with WWII destroyers, then a Burke is easily within heavy cruiser territorry (1-2 thousand tonnes vs. 8 thousand).

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2008-05-04 02:28pm

The Vedra Republic would like to purchase ten "Murena" class hovercraft and 4 Antares class patrol boats.

My OOB for this fiscal year:

1 tank battalion
2 mechanized battalions
1 SP arty battalion
6 infantry brigades
6 artillery battalions

I will also expand this by adding one marine battalion, two tank battalions, and one airborne regiment.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-05-04 02:36pm

The Zubr is described in your post as a "small" naval hovercraft. What?

It's the largest hovercraft in the world, but it's a "small" assault ship

I mean, we also build ROPUCHA-II class (Pr.755) for OMSK members exclusively, and we plan to locate the ROPUCHA shipyards in Pezookia (of course, if PeZook doesn't mind - I just want to have some historic justice, those ships are great and they were made in Poland

)

I gotta be careful, can't spend too much moneys on militarization.

Decommission most of the Navy, especially the hulking stuff. Concentrate on your big Submarines as a possible missile deterrent weapon. Scrap usual ships in the coast guard, leaving perhaps a few destroyers as flagships, but procure hydrofoils instead.

It's really simple, the 60 knot ASM carrying 450 ton ships are a powerful threat in those seas, and coasts will soon look more like ASM Swarms ready to kill for any large ship. Which means, in absence of large combat venues, that huge fleets are mostly needed for nations on the outer side of the Archipelago. A nation like me doesn't need. that.

I think that Antares or Uragan are better than Halifax class frigates for procurement personally and I will downsize my navy middle this year. Why? Antares or Uragan are heavier than any pirate force they can meet, normally (and large forces and ships like DDGs are spotted by AEWs prior to encounter anyway). They can move at 60 knots, which other ships cannot. However, their seaworthiness is not limited in normal regime, and up to 5 grades wavestorm on foils! That's unmatched by most fast naval ships, to maintain 50 knots at a 5 grade wave? It's due to the automatic foil control and anti-sidelean system in those ships.

Even the Murena is well-armed enough to kill mot pirates; the ROC ordered Murena in reality, and I think the Zubr or Dzheyran are really overkill for any pirate base. Come on, several Main Battle Tanks? What are the pirates gonna counter them with? Sticks and AK-47s?

Also, I think I shall invest in the private airplane market. MacMillan shall sell Cessnas to private pilots all over!

Cessna is a good training craft and I believe no one has offered those on the world market so far. Try to give it a shot

And the Zeppelins!

Yeah, might be economical and fine here. Wind conditions are a bitch though, really.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2008-05-04 02:46pm

Considering Lonestar's latest comments it might be time for a BBC expose.

But more in a little while, time for announcements.

Redleader34 · Post by **Redleader34** » 2008-05-04 03:04pm

This is why I knew BBC would be grand. Objective News is made of great success.

Man I hate you STAS BUSH, the hydrofoils are so sleek and would make a great addition to my Civilian fleet. Can I make a order for the Sputnik class, and 3 Cyclones? They would be the backbone of my new Pleasure Craft division, and with the FUN destroying the pirates, now is the time to set up pleasure boat networks.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2008-05-04 03:11pm

Lonestar wrote:I imagine Stas is not going to like my most recent post.

Holy Crap Lonestar! I mean gee you think?

:D

Seriouslly I actually "Lol'ed" at it however, great piece of propaganda and missinformation on Red Tech.. Which I might add is RIGHT next to Crossroadia.

And on that note, expect the Lord High CEO to be atteding the newest conferance soon in his own private Zepplin.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2008-05-04 03:22pm

Man I hate you STAS BUSH, the hydrofoils are so sleek and would make a great addition to my Civilian fleet. Can I make a order for the Sputnik class, and 3 Cyclones? They would be the backbone of my new Pleasure Craft division, and with the FUN destroying the pirates, now is the time to set up pleasure boat networks.

Consider your orders sealed

Also remember. A hydrofoil is a good fast transport on seas, harbor-harbor. But, say, a "Sormovich"-class passenger hovercraft which can go as fast (100-120 kph) is fast transport "anywhere to anywhere".

If you want to transport people around not that accessibel tourist locations without needing to build any infrastructure there, like on some sandly beach on an island or coastline, you can use "Sormovich"

Of course, you can always try dealing with Tian Xia and it's American equipment, but frankly, Alexeevs hydrofoils are superior to those in aesthetics and speed

at the same capacity as a SPUTNIK class, the Boeign Jetfoil frankly looks like a piece of shit compared to Alexeev style WIGs which are pretty distinct, and hundreds upon hundreds of them were constructed.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2008-05-04 04:08pm

aaannnnnddd counterposted Stas.

I'm having fun.

Post by **RogueIce** » 2008-05-04 04:36pm

Well the MESS is awaiting Beowulf and Adrian to continue our summit *poke poke*.

In the meantime, the Foreign Minister has been authorized to advance the following positions for the Shinra Republic (though the Minister will be in contact with the President so alterations can be made, if needed):

Mr Bean wrote:1. Official World Name
Various countries have names they call our planet, New Earth, New Terra, Rapture is popular with the Orthodox. Even Steve which the New Gottiland ambassador insists on. A fitting name must be chosen for our world, a name all countries can agree on.

I would propose something Latin for 'New Earth' the translation of which we can always ask Publius for, OOC.

Mr Bean wrote:2.International Court
We have no UN, we have the FUN, the MESS and the OMSK. Can we, should we have a signal international court all countries can agree to and who's judgments we should respect? And if so, who should it's members be made up of?

This would be a tough one and would need considerable discussion before any position could be stated. The default, for now, is no: we are a soverign nation and while we strive to work with the international community we do not want to be bound by some outside judicial agency.

Mr Bean wrote:3. Extending the ban on Biological weapons
Should the ban on Biological weapons be extended from simple use and selling to also include development?

Yes, unless the development is strictly controlled and significant safeguards are in place for the purposes of studying vaccines and cures in case a biological attack should occur (not everybody in the world is signed on to the ban, after all).

Mr Bean wrote:4. International Travel Laws?
Visa? Passports? What do people need to travel to diffrent countries? Outside OMSK Free travel police no positions have been made clear. If a citizen wishes to travel from Pezookia to Tian Xian what does he need to do?

For me, it'd work about the same as in the Real World I'd think. That's my policy anyway.

Mr Bean wrote:5. Tariffs/Embargo's
Hot or not?

Up to the discretion of each country. Free trade is a good thing, but I see no reason to hamper any nation if they chose to limit what they decide to accept.

Again, these positions are subject to change, but are what my Foreign Minister is authorized to present, for now.

Crossroads Inc. · Post by **Crossroads Inc.** » 2008-05-04 05:02pm

If I may... I'd like to recomend a "#6 for the cponferance, bassically to discuss the Intenrnational Airlines proposial as follows:

Code: Select all

The Following is humbly proposed by the Lord High CEO of Crossroadia in conjunction with all signing member nations for the Creation of “Esdeenet Airlines” All signing nations hereby agree upon the following. 

1: All member nations will agree to allow their nations airspace for overflight by Civilian Zepplains owned and operated by the Airlines. 

2: All member nations will construct a transport Hub in their capital to service and house Zepplins. 

3: All costs and profits from the Airlines will be shared equally among nations. 

The airlines will begin with construction and purchasing of a % of zeppelins based upon the member nations. The more nations the sign the more Zeppelins that will be produced for the Airlines.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2008-05-04 05:16pm

Byzantium also proposes an Open Skies Pact for all airlines. This would allow any airline access to any nation, with no restriction on the number of flights and the country of origin.

Byzantium Airlines is also open to alliances and code sharing arrangements, if there are any other airlines around...

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2008-05-04 05:25pm

The UKB is opposed to the Open Skies Pact, specificly provisions 1, Total Free space will not be tolerated, dedicated transport "lanes" would be allowed.

Free over-flight by any Zepplains would be a invitation for loading Zepplain up with photograph gear and overflying national security concerns.

And provision three is strongly opposed by the UKB as being highly Socialist. Let the Zeppliners compete and the best company's survive.

However the UKB would not be opposed to some sort of "Human rights for footage, IE the Zepplin aisle must be a minimum of X feet wide, you must have a minimum of X inchs of leg room, and the seats must recline at least X degree's, anything under those minimums is to be considered not a transport but rather a highly sophisticated torture transport balloon.